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Each member of SOTIS will be asked to provide his own answer to this neverneding question. Here is mine, it is a personal view and not the "correct" or "wanted" answer. I post it here so you can comment it, but for answering "Why the sun?" and sharing YOUR answer to this, please use the dedicated topic NOT THIS ONE. (no exceptions)



[b]Each system hold a point of void, a gap in the circle that symbolises it. The error, the "nothing" is part of each system, regardless if the system we talk about is a logic system in programming, or life, or a mechanical system, or planetary, etc.

Each circle has 4 gates, 4 points on its line. Three of them are "plus" and one is "minus/zero", in a logical sense not a mathematical one. You need just 3 points to define a circle in space, just 2 to create "a circle" but each circle holds a forth point, the gate outside the system.

When this gate closes, the "minus" rebalances to "plus" the infinite void turns into infinite energy. (Don't argue about notion of infinity, in this case i refer to highest source of something, the SUN is the source)

I missed several explenations but i left enough for those that can undersand the message. Afterall this will be a secret SOTIS text.

A star can be ignited in nature, but most of all, a star can be ignited inside of each system. Humans are individual systems, there is a "inner sun" ..if you know what i mean. Soldiers of the Inner Sun is all about the "star" inside of each one of us.[/b]

[i]Private/personal answer to "Why the sun?",
part of Soldiers Of The Inner Sun guild documents.
-- Mur[/i]

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From what I understood we can post our comments to your answer on this topic, right? (If I'm wrong please someone move my post)

So, in order to ignite our inner sun, we must identify the fourth point and close the gate? (Which kind of infinite energy we'll get?)
Is there any way for the gate to close/open spontaneously?


~Aelis

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yes, here you should discuss just this particular answer.
about the gate yes ....and no...its kind of a secret

however gates, in all meanings, change spontaneously always, not progressive

btw, the gate closes when we die too, but death is not igniting the star i am talking about so, why , how .etc..these are things hard to discuss over a forum considering the most part of the "dictionary" of terms is not existant in same way for each person

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So the Sun is there as a source of energy to all individual systems?

Also, circles symbolises systems? If so I wonder which circle is the symbol of MD, and what is the point of void in it. And the other three points aswell. (It's probably a secret :)) )


~Aelis

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its a valid question however. the 3 points of balance in md plus the point of void. Now think of the land balance, 3 elements to forge the missing 4th.anyway long story.


"The Sun" is the center source of energy proportional to the point of void that got closed and also relevant to whatever the system is made of. Maybe not the best words but i will work on that later. Lets give an example tottaly out of the ordinary...creativity. Creativity's SUN so to say is amplified directly proportional to the point of void, which is dependent on the medium/holder/"operating system"/i cant find the right word here.
In humans is pain, suffering, it amplifies creativity. Well being and luxury kills it (unless the luxury hides emotional pain or some other sort of frustrations/drama). In design, graphic design, same principles apply. In programming, well here its harder to explain because by definition programs have to follow a purpose, well defined purpose. As soon as you create the point of void, the creation will drag its structure towards that purpose and create the central source, its "sun".

In a material word, its what we call a star in cosmic sense, like our sun.

There are so many things that derive from that, so..many..

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But can't you create a circle/system using only one point? All you have to do is return to your starting point…

[attachment=2631:Circle-1point.png]

That being said, there will always be a second point in which the line begins to travel back to the start point…

[attachment=2632:Circle-2point.png]

And then there is the point in between them that does not exist on the circle but defines where it is…

[attachment=2633:Circle-3point.png]

The fourth point though?

But I'm probably heading in the completely wrong direction. I'm trying not to think about it too much and just let my brain be instinctual, but…

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This is a painfully technical answer, but geometrically you need two points to define a circle. Two points define a line, and a line segment and a center point define a circle.

You are right in thinking that all you need is a point to create a system, by returning back to the point eventually, but not a circle... unless you are drawing on a twisted surface that untwists the random searching for the point, or some sheer impressive probability. Both of which are I suppose possible?

Awi

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When I read Mur's definition of 3 points on the line defining the circle, it appears to me in the following way.

With only a single point, the circle could be any shape or size or orientation so long as the given point exists as a part of it.

With the second point, the circle can be defined as a circle but lacks orientation or size in space. If you were to draw a line between the two points, you would create an axis about which the possible circles would rotate. In terms of size, the smallest circle would be the one which those points are the diameter, and the largest circle would be infinitely large with the line between the points growing closer and closer to the tangent line as the circle grows in size.

With a third point, the circle has definite shape, size, and orientation to a plane, and an infinite number of additional points could be placed on the circle with precise definition of their placement based on a mathematical formula (X-H)^2 + (Y-K)^2=r^2

With regards to the fourth negative point, I find this an interesting concept. When the "gate" is open, there is no difference between the inside of the circle and the outside. The only thing which exists is the broken circle itself, in the midst of an undefined infinite space. However, when the "gate" is closed, the inside of the circle is clearly defined from the outside. Now three specific elements exist, the inside (contained energy), the circle (containing system), and the outside (from which the energy is drawn and to which the energy can be released). Now the circle has purpose.

With regard to Mur's example of creativity, it seems less broadly defined than I would like. (Although my preference for a more broad definition is a perfect example of what he gets at.) I think it is a point of imbalance that drives the "inner sun". He mentions pain and suffering as the amplifiers for creativity. In my experience as a regenerative garden and community designer, creativity is the core of the my work, tied in with observation. Pain and suffering do not drive my creativity in the same way they would for a writer, but the imbalance in the world that drives a need for design is certainly an amplifying force. In a perfect world, we would all have all the food, medicine, infrastructure, communication, etc. necessary and there would be no need to alter anything. However, the imbalance of the real world gives opportunity to create all kinds of dynamic systems which can improve upon and aid the natural processes.

There have always existed things which came before and a universe already set in motion. The imbalance of that universe drives us to seek balance, and act (or perhaps I should say react) to correct that imbalance. Considered in a two dimensional plane, the pendulum is a wonderful example. It always works toward the point of equilibrium, yet always winds up far across on the other side. Our actions to correct imbalance must always create another imbalance so the cycle can continue in perpetuity. There must always be those that come after us seeing an imbalance to correct to drive them into action.

With regard to the closing of the "gate", it seems this is the point where the pendulum passes through the origin before swinging back up in the other direction. We see a problem, and act to resolve it. The gate closes and the circle becomes whole at the point when the problem is solved and all is well. But life goes on and we cannot stay in the place of the solved problem forever. The only time there are no problems is when we are no longer among the living. As Mur said, the circle is closed then as well.

Wow...really long post. Didn't mean to ramble so much. Thanks for the opportunity to express myself, Mur!

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If I understand you correctly [color="#ff0000"]Mur[/color] we, humans, are individual systems that have "inner suns"...

In my opinion that's correct in a way that we humans always have a void in us. We humans will never be satisfied, maybe for a time but not "infinitely" or forever.

So like your example says pain, suffering, etc. is a way to amplify our creativity and this is true. I say this is true because when ever I feel alone, sad, etc. I write poems to ease the pain and that turns into a lovely poem even if it's "made" from pain.

But what I do not know is if the point of void is either good or bad?

I'll elaborate more when you answered my question [color="#ff0000"]Mur.[/color]

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@Brulant: The points should be on the line of a circle. The center of a circle do exist but it is virtual. Draw a circle on the plane, and you will find no line pass through the center.

Is the 'star' the forth gate? :blink:

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luke, remove the questionmark and you got your answer right there.

---
awi, brulant - rumi answered about the 3 points in a way , here is an other
if you base the circle on two points, the third will be unavoidably its middle...but the middle is not a point, it is a place. By just two points you define a circle but an other circle could be drawn going through those two pointa as well.. when you have three points, only one circle can touch them all in one.

there are 4 in fact because : "walk" on a circle, you will find 2 points diametrally opposed, and two points perpendicular direction, all these 4 directions are unique and in a way they are all opposed to each other. north and south are opposed but yet the same axis, west and east are opposed yet the same axis, north vs east are like apples and ..bricks... even more different, nothing in common, same for the other combinations. In essence the cross symbol, symbol that is ofently combined with a circle btw. This is short and fast explenation, i could detail, in case why four points on a circle is not clear enough...

from these 4, only 3 are needed. any 3, because in our terms "nothing" else is needed to define the circle, a plane, a system, etc.
but in other words what this means is exactly what it sais, the fourth point is no longer needed, if you have the other 3, its the void.

symbolically is this

a Cross cancels the circle.
a T cancels the 3 points and an other circle cancels the void on top, creates chain reaction (nested is the name?)
Ankh symbol



excuse my english at 5am on a subject i am not sure i know anymore what to say ajd what to shutup about. while typing on phone..lol. if you get the meanigs, good, if not , even better. :)

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Edit: This was written while Mur was writing the above post and I didn't get the chance to see it before I posted this.



[quote name='yokin' timestamp='1299378070' post='80190']
@Brulant: The points should be on the line of a circle. The center of a circle do exist but it is virtual. Draw a circle on the plane, and you will find no line pass through the center.
[/quote]

"And then there is the point in between them that [b]does not exist on the circle[/b] but defines where it is…"
I think I pointed that out…

I'm just trying to figure out the whole "3 points on a circle that define the circle" thing, not demonstrate Mur's three points because I can't find them :D
To me, perhaps because I've been influenced by too much math, the three important parts of a circle are:
1) The center
2) The point that defines how long the radii are
3) The point at which the circle has been shifted.

Disclaimer: The following may be hard to understand as I am currently in tons of pain and am typing quickly, but I'll put it out there anyways.
In my personal opinion, the 4th point outside of the circle that defines the circle but also nulls the circle is every singe other point.
Mur said earlier, ""The Sun" is the center source of energy proportional to the point of void that got closed"
Which I take to mean that there are multiple "4th" points that we can close.
Every single point outside of the circle defines the circle, because the circle has to exist to define that point, but it takes away from the circle because a circle plus a point is no longer a circle. It is a circle plus a point (if that makes any sense). In essence, subtracting from it. (If you want to get mathy (which Mur never seems to want us to do) the equation would change)
Ergo, take every other point away, removing all the "4th" points, and you just get the whole defined circle.

Applying that to us as humans/players/
If we consider ourselves as Mur's system of three points (Mind, body, soul?) then what is the fourth point that defines and nulls us?
Well, according to my above (barely) explanation, it's everyone and every thing else.
Our environments both help define our existence and lessen our own individual power. Among everyone else we're all just another person on the planet.
But.
Remove them, and it's just you.
Meaning you're more powerful :)

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note: i must add, if mp6 will end up reflecting sotis ideology , sotis will be disbanded to avoid conflict because mp6 might end up to be sotis ..in a way . my intention is to bring md to my initial "dream" .now that i know how. recruitment is delayed for good reasons. i have the answers ready to post but holding them a bit longer. thanks to curioise that helped me centralize all the data i will answer everyone in one big doc, commenting each drawing submitted.


dont worry, i wont destroy or mix a guild with a mp level. its more complicated than that

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[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1299378561' post='80191']
… when you have three points, only one circle can touch them all in one.

from these 4, only 3 are needed. any 3, because in our terms "nothing" else is needed to define the circle, a plane, a system, etc.
but in other words what this means is exactly what it sais, the fourth point is no longer needed, if you have the other 3, its the void.

excuse my english at 5am on a subject i am not sure i know anymore what to say ajd what to shutup about. while typing on phone..lol. if you get the meanigs, good, if not , even better. :)
[/quote]

What about ovals? Couldn't, from those three points, you draw an oval instead of a circle? Or a triangle? Why does it have to be a circle? Or is that just playing with semantics?

*shrugs* Your english seems fine to me. It's better than mine at 5am :D

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[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1299378561' post='80191']
there are 4 in fact because : "walk" on a circle, you will find 2 points diametrally opposed, and two points perpendicular direction, all these 4 directions are unique and in a way they are all opposed to each other. north and south are opposed but yet the same axis, west and east are opposed yet the same axis, north vs east are like apples and ..bricks... even more different, nothing in common, same for the other combinations. In essence the cross symbol, symbol that is ofently combined with a circle btw. This is short and fast explenation, i could detail, in case why four points on a circle is not clear enough...
[/quote]

This specific circle you describe immediately draws my attention to the native american medicine wheel. This symbol describes many things, and one in particular comes to the forefront of my mind. The two sets of axes describe two paths, the north/south path of the living world and the east/west path of the spirit world. The journey of life is from south to north and the journey through the spiritual world is from east to west. It is a cycle of life, death, and rebirth, so there is no particular path that comes first.


[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1299378561' post='80191']
from these 4, only 3 are needed. any 3, because in our terms "nothing" else is needed to define the circle, a plane, a system, etc.
but in other words what this means is exactly what it sais, the fourth point is no longer needed, if you have the other 3, its the void.

symbolically is this

a Cross cancels the circle.
a T cancels the 3 points and an other circle cancels the void on top, creates chain reaction (nested is the name?)
Ankh symbol
[/quote]

As I consider the relation between the medicine wheel mentioned above and the ankh Mur mentions (with other ankhs nested within the circle), I think specifically of the path from south to north. The ankh is generally shown with the circle at the top, just as north is generally shown on top in the medicine wheel. To me, the convergent symbolism represents a human life right at the center of the wheel or at the crux of the T in the ankh. Below us (to the south) is all that which we have already experienced, and we are at the crossroads with the east/west path, where all the experience of those that came before affect and counsel us. To the north is the unknown future, which is based on our decisions at any given moment.

Perhaps the reason the ankh represented eternal life to the egyptians is as follows. From the crossroads, instead of a continued straight path toward death in the north, further movement north is entry from the south into a new nested circle. If we travel half the remaining distance on each leg of the journey, we will never reach the destination.

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Can we say that Renavoid's fourth point of void is/was his quill? During the times of Master Archivist? An object not necessary for him to preserve the system, but with it he managed to amplify his Sun? (I'm saying that by reading the AL, I was not around during that time)


~Aelis

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Hmm...

So it comes down to balance ehh...
Or either completely remove the fourth gate...

I personally wouldn't want to completely remove it though...
Why? Because it's a part of us. It's that's simple and maybe without it we maybe less of a human.

I actually got confused and I think my idea is way off...
Why? Because I only base things by experience and feelings...

So to summarize my ramblings above:
The fourth gate is both good and bad but not at the same time.
So I conclude that the fourth gate in us is "emotion" it's the only thing that separates us from any other being.
Why? I don't know I just feel it is.

EDIT:
Oh yeah and emotion can ignite the "inner sun' within us. Just look at the music video of Katty Perry - Firework the best example I have at the moment. :P

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[quote]When this gate closes, the "minus" rebalances to "plus" the infinite void turns into infinite energy. (Don't argue about notion of infinity, in this case i refer to highest source of something, the SUN is the source)[/quote]

So that is what you meant with the post about infinite...

Luke, perhaps the fourth gate is not necessarily 'good' or 'bad' but neutral.

Aside from all that, I am not going to pretend that I know ANYTHING of what you guys are talking about, so. I wing it.

When I think of gates, I happen to think of a pentagram. However, a pentagram in this case has FIVE points to it, this relating to some religious aspect, I surmise. However, in the middle of that pentagram is a 'point' of sorts, the complete middle which becomes another geometric shape of which has five sides. A pentagram is ALWAYS covered by a circle, which, after I did some digging stands for [b]infinite, the sun, female power, and wholeness.[/b]

In Christianity, the seven points relate to the five senses. However... in China, it is called Wu Xing, and each of the five points stand for five different phases/elements.

I don't know if this has any -relevant- correlation, but, I hope it does. If not, I apologize.

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This "star" you're referring to - it's more than likely that each inner sun is inactive, still with that 4th point/gate open.

The central question is how to gain ignition. It's a paradox: when access to infinite power is reached by the closing of the gate, the world outside the circle that mattered so much ceases to matter at all. If something is perfectly balanced, it is closed, and therefore disconnected from all things. Thus it vanishes, and in fact becomes a void itself.

Black holes - in a way they almost seem like perfections.

As for inner sun, it has to be an imperfect, chaotic balance between closed and opened. So the maximum amount of sun is one that switches back and forth with rapidity.

Into words - someone that can lead a dual life. Always flipping between their inner narrative and the outer narrative.

Awi

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I am not sure whom that was to, but I made another connection, which is probably incorrect.

A quote from the source:
[quote]ELEMENTS: The four basic elements to many pagans are earth, water, air (wind or spirit) and fire. Many consider the first two passive and feminine - and the last two active and masculine. In Wiccan or Native American rituals, the "quartered circle" (also the Medicine Wheel) represents a "sacred space" or the sacred earth. The four lines may represent the spirits of the four primary directions or the spirits of the earth, water, wind and fire.

(This set of elements differs from those used in alchemy.)[/quote]

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Awiiya, I think the world outside does not cease to matter when you ignite because from what I see the "Sun" remains outside, and it is the source of that infinite energy, remaining as a bond.


~Aelis

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What I mean by "matter" is actually exist.

Imagine that we are a closed system wrapped in another closed system. We have no idea that the other system exists, and in fact we'd say it doesn't exist.

Open the gate, and suddenly it does, but now we lose the perfection and infinite energy of our own system. This is sort of what I meant.

Awi

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Why, oh why do we go into madness mode as I get busy at work? :rolleyes:

I will not speak on the 4 points of the circle as it is too late for me to think on that right now but I think I recognize a "type" of inner sun like what Mur describes here. In RL I experience it every couple years. When it ignites, I change my personality type, become quite driven, double my workload and thrive on reduced sleep. I find myself at my most creative at these times. But it is an imperfect inner sun as it burns itself out after about six months. This then recharges over the next year to 18 months before it happens again. If I can perfect my own inner sun I should be able to sustain my creative side (while being a mostly technical, linear thinker).

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words are so incomplete to describe something i could normaly decribe in one second face2face, but its a good exercise for me to try put it in writing, helps me map the mechanics of it.

think of fractals... each repeats same symbol over and over again, inside its shape, neverending. But notice something... each subshape, or how you call it, has one entrance to it, where the line comes in and where it exists so it can continue its purpose and create more sub shapes....that is the fourth gate!

yey, i said it quite well i think, i should take notes haha

ok so, in a fractal, only one has the gate closed, the outer shape where it all started from. Closing a subshape within a fractal causes an independent system with its own outershape.

dont get confuse, outer shape and inner sun are basicaly the same thing symbolically speaking once you get the concept.

fractals are a good example , both 2d and 3d... but its actualy the best when time kicks in ..4d shapes..sadly i can see them mentally but i cant yet describe them in words. a 4d shape consists of two perspective , both opposing eachother, end unites with beginning and beginni g with end, its sort of a gradient of feelings. this will get offroad if i go into 4d shapes at this point so lets get back to symbols...fractals, best example of the fourth gate without using the perfection of the circle in the equation.

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@Curiose: Well I think it can be neutral as well like a traffic light turning green to orange to red to orange to red and so on.

Like this:

GREEN <---> ORANGE <---> RED

It's a never ending cycle in my opinion.

Well on to what [color="#ff0000"]Mur[/color] said:

So a fractal ehh...
And now I definitely know that I'm off the right track...

But I need to say this before I forget or go crazy...

I think that the fourth gate is our want or need for something, a void, but when we are satisfied it closes. I actually can't explain it and I don't even know if I'm on the right track anymore. So I'll stop here for now and collect my thoughts.

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