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Woodcutters


Firsanthalas
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(Speaking on behalf of Lunar Priestess)

[color="#00FF00"][size="4"] As a general notice I would like to say that the woodcutters are not many but we are one.
One person does not make or destroy the rules, we all do. This is same as when someone wishes to speak to us, we should ALL be informed.

Thankyou :P[/size][/color]

Edited by Sasha Lilias
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Err...wrong I am afraid. You have to have a leader and I need to have one person (or two perhaps) that I can clearly identify to deal with. If you don't, you will end up at each other's throats and all over the place.
Sort out a structure ASAP. This IS NOT a request.

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[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='11 August 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1281531536' post='65757']
Err...wrong I am afraid. You have to have a leader and I need to have one person (or two perhaps) that I can clearly identify to deal with. If you don't, you will end up at each other's throats and all over the place.
Sort out a structure ASAP. This IS NOT a request.
[/quote]

Surely they can run their alliance how they want? Or because their base is in Loreroot are you allowed to tell them how to do things? Im confused here. Because you said back with the Savalite thing that you dont "run all the alliances in Loreroot"

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(Speaking on behalf of Lunar Priestess)

[size="4"][color="#00FF00"]If you want it to be that way, but I don't think we would be at eachothers throats at all, you should give us time to get things established properly.
Edit: As Mortis has placed across we do not like these rules, but shall comply.[/color][/size]

Edited by Sasha Lilias
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@Chewy

Nope, you do not understand. I am asking that they sort out a structure for themselves to avoid any kind of political footballing. The running of the guild is their business, but the running of Loreroot is my business and having the guild made stable as soon as possible is best for that. In my opinion, throwing people into a room and asking them to sort out how things run can take a long time and have a lot of fighting and nonsense. I just don't want to see that and I think that is best for the guild itself if it is dealt with swiftly. I also need one person that I can go to or that can speak for them. So whether they call it a leader, or spokesperson matters not. I need to have one person that I can clearly identify and deal with. There is a certain forum that you might realise why I want one person (two may be acceptable, but lets not get into number crunching).
On a personal note, I resent the implications here. I am pretty sure if you ask the other groups in Loreroot, they will tell you that I am not in the habit of telling them how to manage their own affairs. When I do step in, it is for good reason and I still don't seek to take over their show.

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I would have thought you would have trusted them to sort something out, I was merely commenting saying that i felt your manner was rather aggressive and a lot akin to "i am the king, do what i say" Which i was comparing to when rheagar was complaining about your King Style.

And on your "personal note" i have no idea what you are inferring from my post. I have said exactly what i mean and there is no need for you to infer anything.

This giving my personal opinion, i feel no reason for you "resent" what i am saying from things that you have mistakenly implied. But if you really wanted to talk to me you know exatly how to contact me.

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Ok, I will be blunt about it. There was some sort of a vibe from some members of the Woodcutters that they are somehow not citizens of Loreroot. They are and I won't tolerate any notion otherwise. Call it draconian or heavy handed if you will, but I've already been down that road before. I also do genuinely believe it is best for them to sort out a leader or structure as soon as possible. That is in everyone's best interest. Right now, on the surface of things, anyone can invite anyone in and whoever has the highest loyalty is leader there. Sorry, but people can be very opportunistic and the situation could easily be abused. As for Rhaegar.......if you are seriously giving credence to anything he says then I think there is no hope for anyone really. If putting up with personal insults and crap from one person for about a year before finally having enough makes me heavy handed, then so be it. Oddly enough though, most people feel I am too soft :P . I guess it goes to show that you can't win no matter what.

(On a completely unrelated note. Is the Woodcutters team brit or something? Because they almost all seem to be from the UK :P )

Edited by Firsanthalas
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Well i knew this was going to happen as i said before

now a new feature is going to be spoiled by people sticking their nose in places they should not.
The fact that this guild was just dumped in a land and no organisation was put in plave make this a very messy idea
the fact that even some memeber of that new guild are posiable filled with player alts is also another matter.

I also wonder at the fact that the members are also all England location players this is unusuale even to me
since i have not ever seen any organisation in game all from the same location this hints at alts to me.
But that is just me i suppose.

See now things are going to be made worse over a new feature that has just been released without organising
some sort of proper setup. I really think this could have been done in a much better way. The guild setup how ever
the guild decided i dont care about it is foolish to think that all memebr have equal say as they cant it is not in the
game mechanics to allow for that. someone is leader in the guild and they have more ablity that the rest it is as simple
as that. the leader can decide on a whim to kick memeber and well nothing you could do about it.

So yeah there is a structure in the allaince ether way. But better to be one that is agreed dont you think
or is this another players wanting to control the new features again and green will win out once again.

The fact still remain the guild is located in LR so under the current game setting that meen the guild IS
LR and thoes player are citizens and have to abide by thoes rules. In order for any guild to mine the resorces of a land
they need to be a member or have a contractual agreement with the leaders of that land and run under the rules of said land
it does not matter if they like it or not. When the guild was said to be based in LR that basic rule was well known so
any one applying to that guild knows the rules and what was comming.

So now i have said my bit i am sure neg rep will follow and more moaning and complaining and
oh the wonderful you hate me and i wont talk because you are winning the argument crap.

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I just want to make something clear here. I am in no way trying to interfere with the work of the guild and how they manage the resources they harvest. How they do that and what they do with them will be their business as far as I understand the idea of the guild. I may make a request at times (which will be a request and nothing more). But I am concerned that the guild operates properly and is not held up in doing its work due to internal squabbling or politics. As I said earlier, it is part of Loreroot and therefore there are wider implications to the land. But we are not talking about the function of the guild here. As Yrth said, there has to be a leader, at least mechanically. Remember, the Guardians of the Root have two leaders, but one still has to occupy the top spot so to speak. And there needs to be considerations to invites into the alliance. Currently anyone can simply invite a mate in with a higher loyalty and they can boot everyone else out. Letting things drag on could be bad and that was and is my concern. That is all.

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[quote name='Yrthilian' date='11 August 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1281536904' post='65769']
Well i knew this was going to happen as i said before

now a new feature is going to be spoiled by people sticking their nose in places they should not.
The fact that this guild was just dumped in a land and no organisation was put in plave make this a very messy idea
the fact that even some memeber of that new guild are posiable filled with player alts is also another matter.

I also wonder at the fact that the members are also all England location players this is unusuale even to me
since i have not ever seen any organisation in game all from the same location this hints at alts to me.
But that is just me i suppose.

See now things are going to be made worse over a new feature that has just been released without organising
some sort of proper setup. I really think this could have been done in a much better way. The guild setup how ever
the guild decided i dont care about it is foolish to think that all memebr have equal say as they cant it is not in the
game mechanics to allow for that. someone is leader in the guild and they have more ablity that the rest it is as simple
as that. the leader can decide on a whim to kick memeber and well nothing you could do about it.

So yeah there is a structure in the allaince ether way. But better to be one that is agreed dont you think
or is this another players wanting to control the new features again and green will win out once again.

The fact still remain the guild is located in LR so under the current game setting that meen the guild IS
LR and thoes player are citizens and have to abide by thoes rules. In order for any guild to mine the resorces of a land
they need to be a member or have a contractual agreement with the leaders of that land and run under the rules of said land
it does not matter if they like it or not. When the guild was said to be based in LR that basic rule was well known so
any one applying to that guild knows the rules and what was comming.

So now i have said my bit i am sure neg rep will follow and more moaning and complaining and
oh the wonderful you hate me and i wont talk because you are winning the argument crap.
[/quote]

We are currently sorting out a management system, and i would ask you all to have some patience, we have been established less than a day, plz give us some time. Don't expect miracles, we are as new to this new feature as everyone else. It seems everyone expects us to be brilliant and while we will try i think you should give us at least a week before judging

And as for this supposition of alts i would like to say that this is insubstantial suposition and that nationality is not proof or even grounds for such supposition

Edited by Necromancer Mortis
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[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]I would like to extend a hand of friendship to the newest citizens of Loreroot. If you need any help, please don't hesitate to ask. You've been given a new opportunity with a new feature. It can be exciting and scary. I know you'll pull it together.

P.S. Please don't be offended if I call you woodticks by mistake. Where I'm from that's what woodcutters are called. It's a endearment here. My dad has been one for decades :P[/font][/color]

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I think to rsolve leadership problems some of the guild should be given unofficial jobs, such as:
[list][*]Spokesperson (Leader in normal case scenario)[*]Someone in charge of tool distrubution and re-distrubustion[*]Archivist (unrelated to the MDA just someone to keep the guilds tresure [knowledge])[*]Conservation propertier (someone to keep note of how rescources are developing and stop over harvesting)[*]Recruitment officer[/list]This way the "leader" can constantly be in flux due to loyalty.

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[quote name='darlec77' date='11 August 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1281544192' post='65788']
I think to rsolve leadership problems some of the guild should be given unofficial jobs, such as:
[list][*]Spokesperson (Leader in normal case scenario)[*]Someone in charge of tool distrubution and re-distrubustion[*]Archivist (unrelated to the MDA just someone to keep the guilds tresure [knowledge])[*]Conservation propertier (someone to keep note of how rescources are developing and stop over harvesting)[*]Recruitment officer[/list]This way the "leader" can constantly be in flux due to loyalty.
[/quote]
lol darlec has justed quoted most of our ideas

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[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='11 August 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1281544562' post='65792']
Please don't start making suggestions. Leave them to make their own mind up. This isn't a 'how should the Guild be organised' thread.
I don't mean to sound abrasive. Just don't want this spilling off into a thread of doom.
[/quote]
darlec is actually part of the guild as The Warrior, however it would be appreciated if suggestions were kept to chat for now

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[quote name='Yrthilian' date='11 August 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1281536904' post='65769']
...I also wonder at the fact that the members are also all England location players this is unusuale even to me
since i have not ever seen any organisation in game all from the same location this hints at alts to me.
But that is just me i suppose...
[/quote]

Yrthilian, yes I, necromancer mortis and lunar priestess are from the UK (not necessarilly England) AeonWolfX is not and I haven't yet seen anyone else in the guild due to them being offline.

We seem to have now created a leadership structure. If anyone wishes to speak to the guild they should speak to Necromancer Mortis he is our spokesperson.


[color="#0000FF"]Please, use the edit button next time.
dst[/color]

Edited by dst
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[quote name='Yrthilian' date='11 August 2010 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1281536904' post='65769']
now a new feature is going to be spoiled by people sticking their nose in places they should not.
The fact that this guild was just dumped in a land and no organisation was put in plave make this a very messy idea
the fact that even some memeber of that new guild are posiable filled with player alts is also another matter.
...
See now things are going to be made worse over a new feature that has just been released without organising
some sort of proper setup. I really think this could have been done in a much better way.
...
[/quote]
Remember "Raising the shield against Cryxus"? The Caretakers had been formed in a similar way to this, except only one member was chosen. Phantasm had around a month before the events with Cryxus happened, if I remember correctly. Even though he had a structure, he had nothing going on, yet still people supported him, and he got the Caretakers back from Cryxus after it was taken over.
The Woodcutters haven't even all met each other, and yet there are already demands for it to have a structure? It's unbelievable to see these things coming from two of the people who are supposed to be leaders! Do we not learn anything from the past? Or do we just ignore the things we'd rather not remember, even if they're important?

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my first thought on the creation of the guild is that it'd be a craft guild, the purpose being to gather wood for tool-making, building materials and artisan works such as wood carving. anyone with some training can do this, anyone from the realm, not just Loreroot. and i thought that is very good because here, i said, is an organization that will unite all the lands as its members will come from the different lands, alliance memebers and non-alliance members, even those without land affiliations.

call me naive but it shouldnt be of any conflict for anyone to join, no matter what their roles are in their lands or alliances. imo, guilds do not possess and will not possess any electoral power. it cannot decide or influence anything pertaining to the land where it is located or on any land for that matter. it is in all things neutral and apolitical.

if it is viewed as a threat for possible abuse then it shouldnt be in any land but No Man's Land. wood can be gathered in LR subject to the approval of the king and the rules for such activities.
if it should remain in LR then the king have every right to do as he pleases with the guild and its members as it is part of his land. needless to say, those powers come from being the king, anything that happens in his land is his right.
yes, Firs is too soft but the right word really is sensible.

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[font="Book Antiqua"][color="#696969"]hm... all this discussion started from Firs wanting to talk to one person (current leader) who would bring the information to others.
first reaction was "the woodcutters are not many but we are one (...) when someone wishes to speak to us, we should ALL be informed".
hard to bring all people in the same place to discuss, especially when one is in jail...
Firs request was not for them to have the structure perfectly working, but something to start from.
Don't see why it has turned to attacks on Firs for wanting a person to talk to or on Woodcutters for things they are to do in the future...
and it continues even now when the first meeting have already taken place.[/color][/font]

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[quote name='Pipstickz' date='12 August 2010 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1281585018' post='65858']
Remember "Raising the shield against Cryxus"? The Caretakers had been formed in a similar way to this, except only one member was chosen. Phantasm had around a month before the events with Cryxus happened, if I remember correctly. Even though he had a structure, he had nothing going on, yet still people supported him, and he got the Caretakers back from Cryxus after it was taken over.
The Woodcutters haven't even all met each other, and yet there are already demands for it to have a structure? It's unbelievable to see these things coming from two of the people who are supposed to be leaders! Do we not learn anything from the past? Or do we just ignore the things we'd rather not remember, even if they're important?
[/quote]

I remember that time and i did not agree with what cryxus did back then to the allaince.
If you rememeber i kept my distance from that incident.

As a leader i know how a Guild or allaince can be torn appart with some form of structure. In that my leasson was well learned.
My comment related to before the woodcutter were formed that it could have been dealt with better and let them organise the
guild BEFORE they were formed. As in let them meet and let them decide on what why they wish for the guild to run.

The problem with the guild beeing located in LR is that when you become a memebr of it you become a LR citizen
in that it meen you also agree to abide by the kings rules. Now i am not saying that that is an issue for the woodcutters guild
but then we could end up with another savel allaince situation a second time round.

Some people need to look at the bigger picture. Yhe guild is a gread itdea i support it 100%
i think it would be a great adition but i also know from experience that just trowing a guild into
a land that this can cause big issue if not organised in the right way.

As i mentioned before one could treat the guild like a business per say. But just as in any other RL land you would then be forced to pay
a tax of sorts. This in its self is a way to work around that whole Guild beeing part of a land issue. As in the guild pays a tax to LR for mining the land resorces if the guild does not pay the cant mine and so on and so on.

But again that is upto the guild and the king of the land and if mur decided to make the guild not part fo the land.
there for makeing sure people dont get the citizenship of that land.

This all comes down to game mechanics to be honest as this is what goverens how guild and allince will be seen
but for now acording to game mechanice the guild is LR in oragin and is part of the land. there fore under the kingship rules

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You're talking about two seperate things: The issues brought up in my earlier post, and then citizenship for most of your supposed reply. I will deal with these two things seperately, even though you seem to think they fit perfectly together.
Your reply to me:
Firstly, simply because you were once a leader, that does not give you the knowledge and understanding of how it all works. Not to mention, of course, that your statement that "some form of structure" hurts alliances is the complete opposite of what Firs is trying to make the Woodcutters do! By forcing them to get into a certain structure, they could well make a hasty decision and do exactly what you're describing, yet you still back this up! Lesson learned, you say? Think again.
Secondly, what does it matter if they get organized before or after the actual guild is formed? Ever heard of a grace period? Do these sort of things not exist in your mind?

Now, as for the rest of your post:
You start by saying that there could be another "Savel situation". The "Savel situation" you're referring to was caused by months of tension and negativity between two people, and then finally one small thing happened that blew up, and Princ ended up in jail. Now, comparing it to this issue, the Woodcutters had existed for all of one day, and I'm assuming that Firs has had little or no past interaction with most of the members. How could another "Savel situation" happen unless one party was immediately rude and disrespectful to the other party?

After that, you say that you know from experience that just throwing a guild into another land can cause a big issue. How can you know from experience? You've never made or moved a guild, that's what Mur does.

As for your next paragraph, it pertains to RL, and not MD, so why would it apply? Mur makes the rules in MD.

And then your last two paragraphs, yes the guild is part of Loreroot, and that IS because of mechanics, but what isn't part of mechanics is the king himself, the human element, and really, I'm quite sure that if this had happened in Necrovion or Marind Bell first, this sort of thing wouldn't have happened, or at least would've been done in private.

Edited by Pipstickz
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This thread is getting heated up.

Fact: Mur himself has "apologised" for not confering with the King before dropping the guild in his land.
This shows Mur understood that without preplanning and consultation its gonna be an added stress, but changes need to be implemented. Lets move on and deal with it.

Fact: There are only 4 Kings. Firsan did what he did and said what he said.
Does everyone want him to say it with flowers and pretty please? Only the other 3 Kings will understand the pressure of running a land. Anyone can say and criticise the King, but in the end, the King will need to clean up the mess in his land if it does get messy.

Fact: The King wanted to speak with the leader and was answered with we are one.
If this is RL, and my staff said that, I would have chewed that person up and spit him out by the roadside. Dont start with some idealistic crap about diplomatic, polite and all that crap. That answer was crap and got a reply from the King that was abrupt. I would have understood if the King wanted to F that answer. His reply to me was restrained. It could have been worse.

Fact: Woodcutters are in Loreroot, whether its mechanics, technical or just plain luck.
This means Woodcutters are under the care of the Loreroot King, whether anyone likes it or not. Meaning good or bad, the King will be effected.

Lets drop all the noise about who is doing what.

Woodcutter's leader needs to speak to the King.

This is between them.

If you think the King is going to screw up the Woodcutters, let him do it and everyone can crucify him then.

Every father has their own way to raise their son, but we shouldnt be shoving down their throats whats right or wrong.

Peace Out!

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[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]It amazes me how things can get blown out of proportion (I've done it myself).

[quote]I'd [b]like[/b] to speak to the Woodcutters. It is particularly important that I speak to Necromancer Mortis.
[/quote]

Firs did not start out with a demand. He used the word 'like' and not 'must' or 'demand'. He directed the comment at Mort because he is who Mur placed in charge according to the new role thread.

Several of the members of the Woodcutters have not been in an alliance to my knowledge (I know a couple have). Suddenly these folks that are used to playing a solo game are now thrust into an alliance. Yes, they signed up, but at times we get a lot more than we bargain for when we sign up for things. Their tasks are many, and they're getting more advice than I'm sure they want.

It is important that the Woodcutters have support and guidance during this time, but too much just brings stress, frustration, and hostility. Let's all just back off and let the Woodcutters get acclamated to each other, their new roles as citizens and alliance members, and having a king. [/font][/color]

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