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Tomorrow at 7:30 Kets and I will be hosting a relatively impromptu philosophical discussion. It will be held at the Oak for those who are familiar with it's location. If you are not, ask around, someone is bound to know.

Make it if you can, be disappointed if you can't.

Awi

PS: The topic is the nature of artificiality (what is natural, what is artificial, can artificial become natural, etc.)
PSS: Should we get to it, a secondary topic could be ethical killing, as that seems to be a hot topic nowadays. Or rather, the benefits of being polite.

Edited by awiiya
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Alas no...7.30am means 5.30am GMT, meaning i will almost certainly be pretending to be asleep by that point :P

Hope it all goes well though, and if someone could get a chat log i'd appreciate it

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Thank you Yoshi and Laphers for joining us. It was a very interesting conversation.

[spoiler]
[19/06/10 07:41] Awiiya:We might as well have our conversation.
[19/06/10 07:41] :Awiiya smiles
[19/06/10 07:41] Handy Pockets:yes
[19/06/10 07:41] Awiiya:So the question of the night is what is the nature of artificiality.
[19/06/10 07:41] Awiiya:Any thoughts?
[19/06/10 07:42] Handy Pockets:I think I understand
[19/06/10 07:42] Awiiya:I personally think that what is artificial has a lot to do with age.
[19/06/10 07:42] Awiiya:But it does seem to go deeper than that: metals, for instance, feel artificial even though they are older than most plants, which seem to be natural.
[19/06/10 07:43] Handy Pockets:my thought was from need.
[19/06/10 07:43] Awiiya:Need?
[19/06/10 07:44] Handy Pockets:Yes, if someone needs an artifical limb, does it not become natural when the user feels it is natural?
[19/06/10 07:44] Awiiya:Ah, that is a different sort of artificality.
[19/06/10 07:44] Awiiya:To me, that limb is always artificial.
[19/06/10 07:45] Awiiya:It always is made of fiberglass and plastic, and if I had an artificial I think I would always be aware that it was not natural.
[19/06/10 07:45] Awiiya:No matter how long I had it for.
[19/06/10 07:45] Handy Pockets:I would have it become a part of me
[19/06/10 07:45] :Handy Pockets smiles
[19/06/10 07:46] Awiiya:Well then I think the question might become more spiritual.
[19/06/10 07:46] Awiiya:The things that are natural - plants, humans, mountains, clouds, etc. might be percieved to have a soul.
[19/06/10 07:46] Awiiya:While the things that are artificial - metals, plastics, dust, etc. might be souless.
[19/06/10 07:47] Awiiya:But that leads to another question. Does nature have a soul to begin with?
[19/06/10 07:47] Handy Pockets:hmm. interesting thought
[19/06/10 07:47] Handy Pockets:what is soul?
[19/06/10 07:47] Awiiya:That is an even harder question to answer, but it's worth a shot.
[19/06/10 07:48] Awiiya:A soul is a presence felt without a physicality.
[19/06/10 07:48] Handy Pockets:could it be a persons total self
[19/06/10 07:48] Awiiya:An energy that cannot be seen, heard, or measured. Something that can only be felt.
[19/06/10 07:48] Handy Pockets: (right from dictionary, sorry for easy way out)
[19/06/10 07:48] Awiiya:Ah, I see what you mean. A soul is more like the calling card? THe identity?
[19/06/10 07:48] Awiiya:I always thought that a soul was separate from the body.
[19/06/10 07:49] Awiiya:That it is the soul and the body together that make up a man.
[19/06/10 07:49] Awiiya:That is why I always found it a bit silly when people suggested using experiments to discover whether souls truly exist.
[19/06/10 07:49] Awiiya:If they DID exist, they wouldn't be able to be measured with hands, rulers, scales, or anything of the sort.
[19/06/10 07:50] Awiiya:Hello Laphers, how are you tonight?
[19/06/10 07:50] Handy Pockets:I feel the same
[19/06/10 07:50] Awiiya:We've moved quickly past the topic of nature and the artifical and into souls, because it seems that natural things are percieved to have a soul.
[19/06/10 07:50] Handy Pockets:Hello Laphers
[19/06/10 07:50] Awiiya:Do you believe in the soul? If so, what is it?
[19/06/10 07:50] Laphers:Hello Kets
[19/06/10 07:50] Laphers:hmm, I don't perceive grass to have a soul
[19/06/10 07:51] Laphers:but Nature as a whole?
[19/06/10 07:51] Awiiya:Do you think that the grand idea of nature does?
[19/06/10 07:51] :Awiiya nods
[19/06/10 07:52] Laphers:no, I think Nature as in the plants don't have a soul but Animals.... possibly
[19/06/10 07:52] Awiiya:I am in disagreement.
[19/06/10 07:53] Awiiya:I think that an individual plant does not have a soul, but the collective of trees, plants, stones, water, etc. does.
[19/06/10 07:53] Laphers:ah, a hive soul as such
[19/06/10 07:53] :Awiiya nods
[19/06/10 07:53] Awiiya:A sort of collective conciousness.
[19/06/10 07:53] Awiiya:What about reincarnation?
[19/06/10 07:53] Awiiya: *laughs* We are quickly getting into spirituality.
[19/06/10 07:54] Yoshi:What would lead you to assume as such though?
[19/06/10 07:54] Yoshi:As in, why the collective?
[19/06/10 07:54] Handy Pockets:That is two times now.
[19/06/10 07:54] Awiiya:Assume? I don't assume, because that implies that I take it for true.
[19/06/10 07:54] Awiiya:It is a feeling, or a possibility.
[19/06/10 07:54] Laphers:I heard a statistic once. There are more people alive today than have ever died
[19/06/10 07:54] Awiiya:I know full well that it could be false.
[19/06/10 07:55] Awiiya:And it is just that - a feeling, without a basis in any physical evidence.
[19/06/10 07:55] Awiiya:But it is easy for me to see how patterns build on the larger scale.
[19/06/10 07:55] Laphers:so, are they new souls? or are animals graduating into people...
[19/06/10 07:56] Awiiya:An atom, for instance, does not mean much by itself. In fact, if you looked at one atom you would not be able to tell which direction in time it was moving. They look the same forwards or backwards.
[19/06/10 07:56] Awiiya:And yet, when you combine a bunch of atoms together, they can become an organasm, a human, rocks, stones, etc.
[19/06/10 07:56] Awiiya:I think it is a similar principle with nature. The stone by itself seems dead, but all together it is a (possibly sentient) soul.
[19/06/10 07:57] Awiiya:That always bothered me too, Laphers.
[19/06/10 07:57] Laphers:Here's a question. If we are made of atoms->cells->organs->etc, and we perceive things that are larger than us, planets->solar systems->galaxies, etc
[19/06/10 07:58] Laphers:Is there a sentience that is beeger than us that we are a tiny part of
[19/06/10 07:58] Handy Pockets:I am trying to remember the name of it, but there is something that connects trees at their roots, for a distance.
[19/06/10 07:58] Laphers:??
[19/06/10 07:58] Awiiya:I'd like to think so.
[19/06/10 07:59] Awiiya:Just like cells, if they could think that is, wouldn't know they were part of a galaxy, we might not know that we are part of something bigger.
[19/06/10 08:00] Laphers:Kets, I have read a fantasy book based on that principle but I don't know what it is called
[19/06/10 08:00] Awiiya: (It's also in movies - Avatar, for one.)
[19/06/10 08:00] Laphers: (true)
[19/06/10 08:01] Awiiya:Taking this an entirely different direction, why do killers kill?
[19/06/10 08:01] Awiiya:Are they mentally ill, or is it a different perspective on life?
[19/06/10 08:01] Handy Pockets:Mycorrhizae
[19/06/10 08:01] Yoshi:Varies on the person.
[19/06/10 08:02] Laphers:we are speaking of premeditation?
[19/06/10 08:02] Awiiya:Would you explain that, Yoshi?
[19/06/10 08:02] Yoshi:One might kill because the victim has a trait that the killer has, and he hates himself for it.
[19/06/10 08:02] Yoshi:Another might do it for fun.
[19/06/10 08:03] Yoshi:Another, eliminate the weak.
[19/06/10 08:03] Awiiya:Hmm.
[19/06/10 08:03] Awiiya:Could you imagine killing someone?
[19/06/10 08:03] Laphers:Some may do it to protect what they perceive to be theirs
[19/06/10 08:03] Handy Pockets:Awiiya, isn't that the same, mentally ill /differnt perspective on life, as it is our normal perspective that he is against
[19/06/10 08:03] Yoshi:I have imagined it yes.
[19/06/10 08:04] Laphers:true, certain societies allow capital punishment whle others do not. Society as a whole sometimes doesn't agree
[19/06/10 08:04] Handy Pockets:To protect someone, I don't know how far I would go. The act of protection would take over my every thought
[19/06/10 08:04] Awiiya: *nods* Yes, I think so.
[19/06/10 08:05] Awiiya:What about to protect yourself?
[19/06/10 08:05] Handy Pockets:ethnocentric
[19/06/10 08:05] Handy Pockets:oh no, not me
[19/06/10 08:05] Handy Pockets:to protect someone
[19/06/10 08:05] Awiiya:Why the difference?
[19/06/10 08:06] Handy Pockets:I don't know what I would do to protect myself but to protect someone else,
[19/06/10 08:06] Handy Pockets:I don't know why the differernce.
[19/06/10 08:06] Laphers:Most mothers state that they would do anything to protect their child
[19/06/10 08:06] Handy Pockets:to protect someone else, I would do what I had to do
[19/06/10 08:06] Yoshi:It's like, putting others needs before your own.
[19/06/10 08:06] Laphers:And most men have no problem threatening to kill/torture anyone who harms a child
[19/06/10 08:07] Awiiya:I always found that a little odd.
[19/06/10 08:07] Handy Pockets:of course we are speaking of the ones who are normal
[19/06/10 08:07] Awiiya:Perhaps because I cannot imagine having a son or daughter, it is also difficult for me to imagine protecting someone else more than I would protect myself.
[19/06/10 08:07] Handy Pockets:why odd
[19/06/10 08:08] Yoshi:Not so much children, as it is family.
[19/06/10 08:08] Awiiya:I don't think I would do much more for my family than I would for my friends.
[19/06/10 08:08] Awiiya:I have heard it said, "Friends are the family you choose."
[19/06/10 08:08] Handy Pockets:I did everything I could for a parent, and I know I could do much more if they were threatened
[19/06/10 08:08] Laphers:some people say that friends are the family that you choose
[19/06/10 08:09] Awiiya: *laughs* Oh Laphers. Should I just let you speak for me?
[19/06/10 08:09] Handy Pockets:but sometimes we are lucky to have parents we want as friends
[19/06/10 08:09] Laphers:perhaps we share a brain
[19/06/10 08:09] Awiiya:Something of the sort.
[19/06/10 08:09] Awiiya:But on a serious note, is that possible?
[19/06/10 08:10] Awiiya:Do friends build up an ethereal connection?
[19/06/10 08:10] Handy Pockets:twins, now that is very close to that kind of connection
[19/06/10 08:10] :Awiiya nods
[19/06/10 08:10] Awiiya:On this one I'm torn.
[19/06/10 08:11] Awiiya:Sometimes I am under the belief that it is a human defense mechanism to think that two people are so attached they can cross great distances emotionally.
[19/06/10 08:11] Awiiya:And that in reality it is impossible, but it gives us security and a warm fuzzy feeling.
[19/06/10 08:11] Laphers:there is a small amount of proof that there can be a mental connection between twins that are seperated. Why can't soulmates create the same bond, at least after meeting each other?
[19/06/10 08:11] Awiiya:That small amount of proof is up against mountains of studies that have shown no correlation.
[19/06/10 08:12] Awiiya:So much can go wrong in studies as well.
[19/06/10 08:12] Awiiya:They are more likely guesses than realities.
[19/06/10 08:12] Laphers:true, but it is difficult to actually create double blind studies of that sort
[19/06/10 08:12] Awiiya:Consider this idea:
[19/06/10 08:12] Awiiya:The only way to conclusively prove anything would be to perform an infinite number of tests.
[19/06/10 08:13] Awiiya:Instead, we test things until the results are unlikely to be due to chance.
[19/06/10 08:13] Awiiya:But, there is ALWAYS the probability that it is due to chance.
[19/06/10 08:13] Awiiya:Statistics is the study of guessing, as it were.
[19/06/10 08:13] Handy Pockets:In that case it would not find an answer in time to use this
[19/06/10 08:14] Laphers:Isn't that the basis of quantum physics?
[19/06/10 08:14] Handy Pockets:it would always be in study. So I see what you mean
[19/06/10 08:14] Awiiya: *smiles* It is.
[19/06/10 08:15] Awiiya:I love quantum physics.
[19/06/10 08:15] Awiiya:The idea that a particle in my body is at this moment somewhere else...
[19/06/10 08:15] Awiiya:Very strange.
[19/06/10 08:15] Awiiya:But strange things happen with a lot of material and chances.
[19/06/10 08:16] Awiiya:Does anybody have any ideas about shapes?
[19/06/10 08:17] Laphers:shapes?
[19/06/10 08:17] Awiiya:Yes Shapes.
[19/06/10 08:17] Laphers:circles are the strongest natural shape
[19/06/10 08:17] Awiiya:Mur has built a lot of mythology about shapes.
[19/06/10 08:17] Awiiya:Would you explain that?
[19/06/10 08:17] Laphers:triangles are the second strongest
[19/06/10 08:18] Laphers:equal force from each point pushing on the point next to it maintains it shape under great pressure
[19/06/10 08:19] Awiiya:Ah interesting.
[19/06/10 08:19] Awiiya:Like egg-shells?
[19/06/10 08:20] Laphers:similar because it is an ellipse but I believe that a true spere would be stronger
[19/06/10 08:20] Awiiya:Okay, that's interesting.
[19/06/10 08:20] Awiiya:Mur once said that a sphere is a natural shape, while squares are human shapes.
[19/06/10 08:20] Awiiya:That might be because spheres are more stable and so maintain themselves over long periods of time.
[19/06/10 08:21] Awiiya:Why is a square such a satisfying shape? Is it perhaps because it looks so neat?
[19/06/10 08:21] Laphers:then would octagons be a natural shape? honey bees and wasps naturally build octagon cells in their hives
[19/06/10 08:21] Awiiya:Is it our way of saying to nature, "We build things in squares, even though it is not the most architecturally sound way to build"?
[19/06/10 08:22] Awiiya:Hmm... I don't know. Octogons do feel less lasting.
[19/06/10 08:22] Awiiya:If you think about it, edges become smoothed with time.
[19/06/10 08:22] Laphers:I believe we could separate that into a sexes difference too though
[19/06/10 08:22] Yoshi:They try to imitate the sphere?
[19/06/10 08:22] Awiiya:How do you figure?
[19/06/10 08:23] Laphers:men like straight lines and women are more fond of curves... generally speaking
[19/06/10 08:23] Yoshi:I think men like the curves more ;)
[19/06/10 08:23] Laphers:so in a world that has been generally patriarchal, we have a lot of straight lines
[19/06/10 08:23] :Handy Pockets looks away to hide her giggle
[19/06/10 08:23] :Awiiya laughs
[19/06/10 08:23] Laphers:Yoshi, I was thinking the same thing as I typed that\
[19/06/10 08:24] Awiiya:What do you think of Golemus?
[19/06/10 08:24] Awiiya:It is a land that has always confused me a little.
[19/06/10 08:25] Laphers:I find that Golemus and Necrovion are opposites in that one allows entry but not exit and the other is the opposite
[19/06/10 08:26] Awiiya:Ah, that is a good point.
[19/06/10 08:26] Awiiya:I had never thought that.
[19/06/10 08:26] Yoshi:GG is artificial, in a way, but perhaps became artificially natural.
[19/06/10 08:27] Awiiya:There was a question Akasha asked a while ago that I could never answer.
[19/06/10 08:28] Awiiya:When the wizards built Golemus they mastered all but one element. What was that element?
[19/06/10 08:28] Laphers:hmm, I see it more as a natural land that has been "forced" into a new mold
[19/06/10 08:28] Yoshi:Wind.
[19/06/10 08:28] Awiiya:That is a good idea too.
[19/06/10 08:28] Awiiya:And why Wind?
[19/06/10 08:29] Yoshi:You remember that picture on the wall?
[19/06/10 08:29] Laphers:is she taking Spirit as an element? Because they are human, they still are bound to human nature
[19/06/10 08:29] Yoshi:the spiral
[19/06/10 08:29] Awiiya: *nods* Yes, I do.
[19/06/10 08:29] Awiiya:I think just the four, Laphers.
[19/06/10 08:30] Yoshi:Well, they mastered water, (island) fire (the pillar) and earth (mountain) and the fourth they couldn't control- the shades.
[19/06/10 08:30] Yoshi:Or something >.>
[19/06/10 08:31] Awiiya:You're right, the shades are dominated by Wind...
[19/06/10 08:31] Awiiya:But the Shades also cannot go to Golemus, as they cannot pass over water.
[19/06/10 08:31] Yoshi:because they are not pure wind.
[19/06/10 08:32] Awiiya:Well yes, but why specifically can Shades not pass over water?
[19/06/10 08:32] Awiiya:It seems a strange weakness.
[19/06/10 08:33] Awiiya:This brings us back to the mirror of human idea, which to be honest I'm not horribly fond of.
[19/06/10 08:33] Yoshi:Because would they not just sink into it, and merge with the water?
[19/06/10 08:33] Yoshi:settle down into the bottom, and become nothing?
[19/06/10 08:33] Laphers:and the tides would pull them apart?
[19/06/10 08:33] Awiiya: *shakes his head* There is something else stopping them.
[19/06/10 08:33] Awiiya:They cannot even pass over the bridge.
[19/06/10 08:34] Yoshi:We cannot either.
[19/06/10 08:34] Yoshi:until the barrier gets broken that is.
[19/06/10 08:34] Awiiya:Perhaps it is water that the wizards did not master?
[19/06/10 08:34] Laphers:I have crossed the bridge, so it is possible... at times
[19/06/10 08:34] Awiiya:But even when the gates are open, they still could not pass.
[19/06/10 08:35] Laphers:If shades are a mirror to us, and we have not mastered one element, then they also have one element that they have not mastered?
[19/06/10 08:35] Yoshi:but would it be the same element?
[19/06/10 08:35] Awiiya:That is assuming that the wizards are human, which is a good assumption to make.
[19/06/10 08:36] Awiiya:But they are not mirrors - they are opposites.
[19/06/10 08:36] Awiiya:A negative to a positive force. In some ways the forces are the same, but they perform opposite actions.
[19/06/10 08:36] Yoshi:So they mastered Wind, and not the other 3.
[19/06/10 08:36] Awiiya:For instance, opposite ends of a spectrum are very similar.
[19/06/10 08:36] Awiiya:Life is similar in ways to death.
[19/06/10 08:36] Laphers:are they? I have been reading about the meeting of Khalazdad (sp) and the Shade believed that they were a mirror
[19/06/10 08:37] Awiiya:But in a mirror you are not the same - you are reversed.
[19/06/10 08:37] Awiiya:Ever tried reading?
[19/06/10 08:38] Laphers:reading in a mirror? Yes, sometimes it is easier than others. I also can read upside down and backwards at times *grins*
[19/06/10 08:38] :Awiiya laughs
[19/06/10 08:38] Awiiya:Okay, well fair enough, but it is still reversed.
[19/06/10 08:39] Awiiya:The shades in a similar way, move the opposite way we do.
[19/06/10 08:39] Awiiya:Part of the percieved balance - which I am beginning to tire of as a useful idea as well.
[19/06/10 08:39] Awiiya:I agree that wind is a good option, Yoshi, but I am not convinced.
[19/06/10 08:39] Awiiya:Do you have more evidence?
[19/06/10 08:40] Yoshi:Windmill broke.
[19/06/10 08:40] Awiiya:That is true, but that's in No Man's Land.
[19/06/10 08:40] Awiiya:That'd be more evidence if it were in Golemus itself.
[19/06/10 08:40] Yoshi:The watermill is still functioning.
[19/06/10 08:41] Awiiya:That's a good point - a water wheel is a very good metaphor for man's control of water.
[19/06/10 08:41] Awiiya:I had never considered that.
[19/06/10 08:42] Awiiya:But what of the lighthouse? That is a metaphor for controlling light, or fire.
[19/06/10 08:42] Awiiya:And Seige's Crest has catapults - launching stone.
[19/06/10 08:42] Awiiya:The laboratory as well - controlling chemicals.
[19/06/10 08:42] Awiiya:Though the lighthouse is broken as well.
[19/06/10 08:42] Awiiya:It might be a sign though, you're right.
[19/06/10 08:43] Yoshi:Then again, Wraiths wreck...
[19/06/10 08:43] Awiiya:Golemus has mastered many elements, but only No Man's Land, which is close to Necrovion, has ever mastered Wind.
[19/06/10 08:43] Laphers:I thought of Mt Keletha itself as the symbol for fire
[19/06/10 08:43] :Awiiya nods
[19/06/10 08:43] Awiiya:A boat a symbol for controlling wind.
[19/06/10 08:43] Awiiya:Mt. Kelle'tha is more than that, I think.
[19/06/10 08:43] Yoshi:Yet it crashed.
[19/06/10 08:44] Awiiya:It is a symbol for the Book of Principles.
[19/06/10 08:44] Laphers:and one of the principles is elements
[19/06/10 08:44] Awiiya:Very true - but Mount Kelle'tha has all four elements.
[19/06/10 08:45] Awiiya:Not just wind.
[19/06/10 08:45] Awiiya:Or fire, excuse me.
[19/06/10 08:45] Yoshi:I think we are mixing the mountain and the wizards.
[19/06/10 08:45] Laphers:there is water there? I guess I need to look closer
[19/06/10 08:45] Awiiya:But can we really say that the two are separate?
[19/06/10 08:45] Awiiya:A storm surrounds the mountain. It's not in any scenes, but it is mentioned.
[19/06/10 08:46] Laphers:ah
[19/06/10 08:46] Yoshi:It then cleared.
[19/06/10 08:46] Awiiya:Did it? I forgot that part
[19/06/10 08:46] Awiiya:When did it clear?
[19/06/10 08:46] Laphers:because you can see GG from the roof of Paper Cabin
[19/06/10 08:46] Yoshi:Akasha thought of it dissappearing.
[19/06/10 08:46] Yoshi:and then it did.
[19/06/10 08:47] Awiiya:Well, personally, I think the most important lesson is that with logic one can create just about anything.
[19/06/10 08:47] Awiiya:It is important to look at the logic of old already created things to get ideas for new creations, but we might do well not to get lost in it.
[19/06/10 08:48] Laphers:sometimes we need to look to nature to get ideas for creating as well
[19/06/10 08:48] Yoshi:Page 36 [2008-05-08 10:44:21 - Golemus Wizard quest - Ak.]
[19/06/10 08:49] :Awiiya nods to Yoshi
[19/06/10 08:49] Awiiya:Well, to be honest, I had planned for just an hour of discussion.
[19/06/10 08:49] Awiiya:But we can keep talking.
[19/06/10 08:50] Awiiya:Or not JUST an hour, but an hour for which I would ensure that there was talking.
[19/06/10 08:51] Laphers:well, I arrived late and it's been an hour for me *smiles*
[19/06/10 08:52] :Awiiya nods
[19/06/10 08:53] Yoshi:hmm
[19/06/10 08:53] Yoshi:Winds Sanctuary
[19/06/10 08:53] Awiiya:Yes, you're right.
[19/06/10 08:54] Awiiya:The wind gets a lot of attention.
[19/06/10 08:54] Yoshi:Only surrounding Necro.
[19/06/10 08:56] Laphers:Has anyone ever noticed that the Sanctuary has a very large base the the other statues don't even look like they are touching the ground?
[19/06/10 08:56] Yoshi:^yes
[19/06/10 08:56] Awiiya: *nods* Yes.
[19/06/10 08:57] Laphers:Though you can see that there is a base underneath them.
[19/06/10 09:02] Awiiya:I think I'm going to fall asleep...
[19/06/10 09:02] :Awiiya yawns
[19/06/10 09:02] Awiiya:Goodnight.
[19/06/10 09:02] Laphers:Goodnight Awiiya
[19/06/10 09:02] Yoshi:Goodnight Awiiya.
[/spoiler]

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Sure, if you want it to occur weekly, it's simple: Tell people that there is going to be a philosophical discussion once a week, and name a time. *smiles*

But yes, from time to time, I will probably be organizing a few.

Awi

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