Jump to content

The Cure For Insomnia


Recommended Posts

Note: Because i'm lazy, all emots are missing (they dont copy paste), assume whenever there's a gap, one of us is laughing :P
Warning: all straight line text :)
Start time stamp: (04/12/2009 02:09:20) - converted to server time
End Time Stamp - (04/12/2009 05:59:32) - converted to server time
Yeah......that's 4 hours


Muratus del Mur: hi
Grido: heys
Muratus del Mur: no, i wrot clear there, i need the list of bad comments
Muratus del Mur: so i can delete them in the db and also i will make a top with those that posted them
Grido: yeah, that message was from a couple days ago
Grido: already sent you the list of bad comments by forum pm
Muratus del Mur: ah ok
Muratus del Mur: thnx
Grido: np
Muratus del Mur: i just opened messenger
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Grido: biiiig long list of offline messages?
Grido: and at 2am? lol
Grido: bad move
Muratus del Mur: y
Muratus del Mur: i start to work
Muratus del Mur: imagine that
Muratus del Mur: at 2am
Muratus del Mur: grrr
Grido:
Grido: that's just terrible
Muratus del Mur: my secret plan is to send everyone that writes me a short hi, then hoping they are not online at that moment and run fast away
Grido:
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: so if i send you an offline and then hide offline myself?
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: i've got to remember that one
Grido: how's the book? you said it's almost finished?
Muratus del Mur: i keep changeging things
Grido: good thing about it being digital
Muratus del Mur: i made a "discovery" that should be placed more in front
Muratus del Mur: and also i am splitting it in 3 parts
Grido: removed some of the repeating?
Muratus del Mur: "observations" "theories" "applications"
Muratus del Mur: yes i removed the repeating
Muratus del Mur: i also intend to change the title a bit
Grido: good 3 sections, though i've a feeling you might cross over a bit lol
Muratus del Mur: the religious look is realy affecting all i asked to tell me their opinion (here i mean)
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: yes i will probably do, applications and theories are very close
Muratus del Mur: but first section is clearly separated , i hope
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: i figured out a thing that was so obvious but i never thought about it
Muratus del Mur: all the book speaks about the observer, the third point that gives reality to the other two ... and i didnt realised that life itself is having exactly the same role for the universe, we are its observers
Muratus del Mur: by the feelings we have, by all that we do
Grido: yea
Muratus del Mur: in old magic , memory was one of the ultimate weapons to kill something without a body. Forgetting that thing destroyed it. I think we as living beings, from plants to humans, are strenghteining the existance of the universe by observing it. I realise it sounds weird , but i prepare better words
Grido: i've heard a similar strain to that before
Grido: except in relation to gods
Muratus del Mur: gods die if they are forgotten
Grido: a god only "exists" if people believe in it
Muratus del Mur: but oftenly this is used in poetic ways
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: everybody forgets its very real roots
Muratus del Mur: thats of corse magic
Muratus del Mur: where "gods" were not the theoretical powers we believe in now, but actual beings
Grido: yeah
Grido: i love those old myths and legends
Grido: like hercules, achilles etc
Grido: sons of gods who came down to earth
Muratus del Mur: but, i cant go to much into magic part or i will feel the need to attack the curch, again, and the book will be just a big ramble of a heretic
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: so those examples will be just ..examples
Grido: yea
Muratus del Mur: i have my own weapons to support the theories
Grido: i'd also start complaining if you misphrased attacks at the church
Muratus del Mur: theories that are independent actualy of magic or religion, they apply on everything
Grido: thems the best ones
Muratus del Mur: ? i dont understand
Grido: well from what you've said, you're mostly against either the catholic church, or early catholic church
Grido: so if you phrased to do with christians, or christianity, then you'd be argueing against the wrong thing
Muratus del Mur: i am against the church as a institution in general. Gaining power out of such secrets is one thing, convincing your subjects that they cant reach it is an other
Grido: which is the catholic church mostly
Grido: i'm a christian, but i also agree with science, take a lot of the bible metaphoricly, and am open to ideas
Muratus del Mur: i dont realy care actualy what church it is, its a church. If you will tell me one church that encourages humans to understand the world "mechanics" and not "blame" everything on god, ...i want to see that
Grido: so the secrets thing wouldnt apply to me
Muratus del Mur: church steps back only when science is 101% right
Grido: no....catholic church
Muratus del Mur: my view of the "situation" is that both this religious way and the scientific way are wrong
Muratus del Mur: only something combining them can be right
Grido: there's catholic and protestant, "low" protestant is much more accepting of all that
Muratus del Mur: they are halfs of a mechanism
Grido: yea, and i accept both as truths
Muratus del Mur: if church would say one day, there is no god, but lets understand things and see each one of us where we decide that god might be, that would be a "wow"
Grido: there are for instance christians who work at CERN
Muratus del Mur: The funny thing is that i am not saying there is no god or that there is one, because, again, i think both options are wrong, so i am writing a entire book to explain in non religious way, why there is no god and why its stupid to say there is none...... contradiction at its best
Grido: hehe
Muratus del Mur: its a long story, that i feel this time i can put on paper and actualy support with logic not only with belief
Grido: yeah
Grido: i'm going to enjoy reading it
Muratus del Mur: And yes, the things that come out of it are whats important, not the conclusion, ...as long as people cant see something as between existance and non existance, its pointless to give an answer, its enough to tell the story of the "jurney" so to say
Grido: yeah
Grido: when i try and explain something by saying there's a middle bit, people try and stop me and i spend ages explaining why it's actually there
Muratus del Mur: years ago , i was convinced there is no god, there is no order ... now i am more than sure about the order because i finaly figured it out, and about god, it hurts my fingers when i type that name .. is like the word magic .. so tainted by common beliefs of what it is that its no longer the right word
Grido: i would agree
Grido: God isnt something/one we can understand
Grido: because it's too different
Muratus del Mur: but the order thing, i have to say i question my sanity ) ... i mean...some things simply fit too good together , i must be going crazy
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: i found logic behind principles
Grido: but then people who wrote certain equations mightve felt the same lol
Muratus del Mur: how and WHY they exist
Grido: hehe
Muratus del Mur: for me personaly thats amazing
Muratus del Mur: and it all connects, i am so sory i dont know better english , this requires poetry to be put well in words
Grido: hehe
Muratus del Mur: i had a long talk with valy about these things, and he as an artist, had the most natural reaction...because so it is..... its funny when you understand some things fully you end up having no more words about them
Muratus del Mur: i feel i cheat what i discovered by putting it in words
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: but i guess here i am provoked to do so by all people that fail to see it
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lol
Grido: sometimes words are the only option
Muratus del Mur: or art
Muratus del Mur: art is the best actualy
Muratus del Mur: but, words are good enough for me
Grido: a person must use whatever skills they have to express all they've realised for the world to see
Grido: or some quote similar
Muratus del Mur: true
Muratus del Mur: its like a duty
Muratus del Mur: to share information
Grido: if you dont share what you know, there's no point in knowing it
Muratus del Mur: good or bad, information exchange is our purpose in a way
Muratus del Mur: it starts from nothing and it ends to nothing, oh you see, bible again grrr
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: i am frustrated because that book is realy realy holding secrets of imense value
Muratus del Mur: i am frustrated to see how these things are used to control masses so to say, over history
Muratus del Mur: because i can prove and explain most ideas of christianity
Muratus del Mur: and only when doing so i realise, church of any kind doesnt do that at all
Grido: I make a point of telling people Easter and Christmas are Pagan festivals
Muratus del Mur: yeah good one
Muratus del Mur: and they go on with their lives as if you are talking politics
Muratus del Mur: why "3" , why the halo, everything i will explain
Muratus del Mur: but, trying not to focus on church
Muratus del Mur: christianity is only one of the "cultures" that spread this knowledge
Muratus del Mur: and its not theirs
Grido: early cathololic church was very big on absorbing other beliefs and cultures into it
Muratus del Mur: so telling bible is a science book, (lol) is not what i want, because i will ignore all other religions that in essence are the same thing, applied science of how the universe works
Muratus del Mur: i simply cant support anything about religion, because it was used wrong
Muratus del Mur: i could disect anything and give you strong reasons to believe or not to believe in what they say
Muratus del Mur: but thats not the point
Muratus del Mur: because the belief or non-belief are decided by the person long before that
Muratus del Mur: from childhood
Muratus del Mur: they are like founding stones of the character
Muratus del Mur: and its no point to argue with anyone, i am just trying to tell the "mechanics" , in my words, whoever sees the similarities, great for them, but i am already at the edge of sounding religious fanatic, either pro or contra, so i have to walk carefuly on the edge
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Grido: i have a feeling i might not get much sleep when i come visit, due to debating various things
Muratus del Mur: truth remains, i see religion as a science, an imense accumulation of knowledge over time
Muratus del Mur: but who else sees that
Grido: a science is a study of something
Muratus del Mur: mm yes then what other word ...application of science?
Muratus del Mur: because religion is not fantasy
Grido: no
Muratus del Mur: and its not naked truth
Muratus del Mur: its a form of ...art maybe?
Grido: cant think of a word
Muratus del Mur: they are using amazing concepts , applied
Grido: religion is art, that fits
Muratus del Mur: because there is one
Muratus del Mur: magic, unfortunatly
Muratus del Mur: the one word church tryed to destroy over centuries
Muratus del Mur: so i have no words
Grido: but then, if they had not tried to destroy it, would people have strived so hard to protect it?
Muratus del Mur: religion is magic, and magic is a form of science that understands and applies laws of the universe
Muratus del Mur: religion is all about magic, their foundation is in magic , all religions
Grido: example of real life magic, which you can look into if you get bored : How does water travel up a 200m tall tree?
Muratus del Mur: and magic as a word, is almost depleted of its meaning, like god
Grido: yea
Muratus del Mur: just ask people what is magic
Muratus del Mur: and you will see the differences
Grido: they will say bunny in a hat etc
Muratus del Mur: everybody sees something else
Muratus del Mur: no
Muratus del Mur: they are not that naive
Grido: some are...
Muratus del Mur: but will talk about abnormal things
Muratus del Mur: while BIRTH is the most amazing magic of all
Muratus del Mur: and so many examples of real life things... they say if they are explainable by science its not magic ... thats so damn wrong
Grido: life from life
Grido: the only other form of life producing is from another dying
Muratus del Mur: sciencs as we see it is a simplified form of knowledge , only one that includes life as a driving concept can be complete, and thats not biology , thats magic... biology is more like mechanics
Muratus del Mur: all magic is explainable
Muratus del Mur: all
Muratus del Mur: the mistery is just for those that dont understand it
Muratus del Mur: ever considered the similarities between magic and science when it comes to old times?
Grido: the issue i have with a lot of the ""magic"" people think about nowadays, is conservation of energy
Muratus del Mur: what today is spirituality, tomorow will be proven science
Grido: hrm
Muratus del Mur: it fits its fits!! i have that explanation
Muratus del Mur: how they create somethign out of nothign
Grido: bt yeah, people got persecuted as witches because they were doing science
Grido: how lol
Muratus del Mur: i so have that explenation
Grido: lol tell
Muratus del Mur: i feel like jumping around
Muratus del Mur: because that was the proof i had to convince my father that magic exists, when all his life he was against such "ridiculous concepts"
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: idk if to tell you or to let you read the book
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: its kind of late
Grido: i'm gonna read the book anyway
Muratus del Mur: i define them in the book as stages of complexity
Muratus del Mur: you can name them in physics as dimenstions
Muratus del Mur: like time is the 4th, but there are many , time is just the msot known example
Muratus del Mur: so
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: listen
Muratus del Mur: its hard to explain in a few words
Muratus del Mur: the "distance" between one complexity level to an other,
Muratus del Mur: is infinite
Muratus del Mur: i can prove that with examples
Grido: i can go with that
Muratus del Mur: ok
Muratus del Mur: then ,...
Muratus del Mur: do you see where i am going?
Grido: not yet
Muratus del Mur: the "magician" is the one controlling the upper level of complexity
Muratus del Mur: that is inexplicable to the lower level
Grido: because it's so far away
Muratus del Mur: the the conversion from the upper level to the lower level, has at its disposal an endless amount of information
Muratus del Mur: and information, is all this world is about... energy including
Grido: hmm...
Muratus del Mur: withing a system, energy has to balance itself
Muratus del Mur: but we are talking about interacting systems!
Muratus del Mur: for example
Grido: i love your excitement
Muratus del Mur: a book contains information , true?
Grido: true
Grido: ish
Grido: depends on definition of information
Muratus del Mur: when you read a book, you dont remember photo of letters
Muratus del Mur: you recreate the information
Grido: in memories things arent always as they were, sure
Muratus del Mur: but you can print 1million of books
Muratus del Mur: so you create information out of energy
Grido: you dont "create" the information 1mil times...
Muratus del Mur: yeah but my example is not good because the creation power belongs to the human ,
Grido: you create the books, the book happens to contain the info
Grido: i;ll let you continue before commenting
Muratus del Mur: ok
Muratus del Mur: what i was trying to say?
Muratus del Mur: lol
Muratus del Mur: damn its so late
Muratus del Mur: ah
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: endless sources
Muratus del Mur: or level jumping
Muratus del Mur: for example md
Muratus del Mur: its a uppoer level of complexity than whats inside it ... not upper, but different level
Muratus del Mur: so those that are not part of its "system" , i mean programming, development, are outside of it
Muratus del Mur: (sounds stupid but listen
Grido: i'm currently imagining electrons around an atom
Muratus del Mur: now md "causes" or can cause, endless other informations
Muratus del Mur: in physics ... energy is balanced
Muratus del Mur: or how you call it
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: ok you get what i mean
Muratus del Mur: but i have a question
Muratus del Mur: tricky one
Muratus del Mur: i agree energy is balanced, even if its not (because universe is expanding)
Muratus del Mur: but
Muratus del Mur: can energy, matter, information (all 3 i see as the same thing in different forms but thats not the point here) , appear out of nothing and vanish into nothing?
Muratus del Mur: because particle physics says it can!
Grido: i know...
Muratus del Mur: so it goes into nothing, comes out of nothing, yet is balanced
Muratus del Mur: think about it
Grido: it relies on balence though
Muratus del Mur: not in same place
Muratus del Mur: i am not talking about related systems
Muratus del Mur: its more like a balance of the universe
Grido: the particles come into existance on the condidition that the antiparticle anihilates it immediately after
Muratus del Mur: in general
Muratus del Mur: no, for example on particle colisions
Muratus del Mur: or light
Muratus del Mur: an electron without charge ...vanishes?
Grido: no, it has a minute mass
Grido: energy can convert into mass, vice-versa
Muratus del Mur: matter turns into energy and the opposite
Muratus del Mur: lol
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: yet they can both vanish, and bot appear out of nothing
Muratus del Mur: the "transmutation" between them is only one aspect of the process
Muratus del Mur: but the real interesting one is creation and death so to say
Muratus del Mur: because they are related in a non direct way
Muratus del Mur: energy can vanish without something to absorb it, and its logica considering on a large scale the universe is "endless" or at least expanding , yet its not all full of matter or energy
Muratus del Mur: so if something dies , its logical it shoudl also appear
Muratus del Mur: damn, why the hell i feel i am offtopic
Muratus del Mur: !!
Muratus del Mur: )))
Grido: the universe expanding means the energy stretches (or how i learnt about it) i thought?
Grido: rather than more energy being produced
Muratus del Mur: energy vanishes
Muratus del Mur: and energy is produced
Grido: the scientist in me is asking for proof
Muratus del Mur: i will document this fully because i see its of interest
Muratus del Mur: okok, i will have it
Grido: if people are to believe that magic is possible, then they'll want to know how
Muratus del Mur: tips and tricks?
Grido: although "for those that want to believe, no proof is needed. for those that cant believe, no proof is enough"
Muratus del Mur: thats the magic people SEE , not do. those that do it,...its no more magic for them
Grido: not tips and tricks
Grido: i dont mean how to perform magic
Grido: i mean how it works
Muratus del Mur: take for example a king in front of his army just before battle
Muratus del Mur: he is saying ...we will win
Muratus del Mur: ok untill here?
Grido: how all the troops then believe it
Grido: yeah
Grido: and get inspired, and feel stronger for it?
Muratus del Mur: no
Muratus del Mur: listen
Muratus del Mur: instead of acting to what he said ... like ... ah ok we will win, pfewww now i am more relaxed
Muratus del Mur: something in them gives them a strong feeling that motivates them towards that process
Grido: on the other hand, before other battles the leader would say a more poetic version of "we're all gonna die today" and they'd still fight to their last breath
Muratus del Mur: the feeling of the leader, that is more complex (thats the keyword) than the one of the soldiers, is splitt, broken in many less complex feelings, but of more intense power , into the soldiers
Grido: like the leader spirit inner magic doc?
Muratus del Mur: something
Grido: the will of the one goes to the will of the many?
Muratus del Mur: it goes , but i am not sure if i wrote there about the difference in complexity
Muratus del Mur: at that time i knew that one but not explaind it fully
Grido: yea
Muratus del Mur: now
Muratus del Mur: think about waves
Muratus del Mur: the more higher the freqvency
Muratus del Mur: the lower the amplitude
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: to keep same energy
Grido: (damn i hate physics)
Muratus del Mur: the lower the freqvency (the lower complexity feeling in the soldiers) , the stronger the amplitude
Muratus del Mur: so the complex feeling of the leader, is transfered to the soldiers, loses complexity, but gainst power
Muratus del Mur: thats the point
Muratus del Mur: and the endless source of energy is visible here
Muratus del Mur: because a king can motivate 100 people
Muratus del Mur: or 1000000000000
Muratus del Mur: its the same
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lol...
Muratus del Mur: because the difference between complexity levels is endless
Grido: i can probably pick holes in any metaphor you give
Muratus del Mur: and you can use that difference to turn it into soemthing
Grido: but i get the idea
Grido: sortof
Muratus del Mur: well i am not talkiing for nothing, please do so!
Grido:
Grido: well that equates to inspiration
Grido: think of it like a door inside your head
Grido: or many doors
Grido: when a king (or whatever) speaks to a large crowd, he gives you that key to unlock that door
Grido: so the power is already within the person
Grido: it just gets unlocked
Grido: the energy is not created, just released
Muratus del Mur: but the difference between what is in the king and what is in those people , if seen as quantity, is theoreticaly endless
Grido: but then you're gaining it from infinitesources as well
Grido: it's like shouting into a cavern and hearing the echos
Grido: (crap, keep changing the meaning of my own metaphors)
Muratus del Mur: for example in multiple dimensions, if you have a 3d shape and try to put it in 2d (lower complexity level) , you can do so in an endless number of ways ... you are not creating something, but the endless gap allows you do access endless amounts of information
Muratus del Mur: (lol)
Grido: sure, infinite possibilities
Muratus del Mur: infinite possibilities, and as matter means information, and can get to pure information eventualy, its a clue that creation is possible
Muratus del Mur: at least , so i believe ... i was not able to materialise a 100$ bill unfortunatly
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido:
Grido: i'm still stuggling here
Muratus del Mur: in math, there are irrational numbers that are ..endless
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: so a simple equation, causes an endless source of information
Muratus del Mur: thats AMAZING
Muratus del Mur: its actualy endless
Muratus del Mur: not big
Muratus del Mur: endless, its huge difference
Muratus del Mur: and from what, from simple things, finite things, you get something endless
Grido: i'm not liking the definition of information, even if it's the correct one
Muratus del Mur: just because of this gap between complexity levels
Muratus del Mur: art for example
Grido: ok, so we have infinite information
Muratus del Mur: a simple painting, can have 100000 meanings for each single person that looks at it
Grido: yeah, all sorts of complexity levels, for me it looks like a bag of trash, another person a law suit waiting to happen
Muratus del Mur: infinite information (not infiniteley repeating), means a source , a logical source
Grido: (i have issues with the tate gallery in london)
Grido: i can go with infinite information
Muratus del Mur: and here is where brain crashes and people call it god, i so hate it
Muratus del Mur: because its explainable in its every bit why is so, and i dont talk about math, or physics examples, but i talk about to explain shy this concept works, starting from its very roots
Muratus del Mur: all starts with two dots, and all of this can be explained with two dots
Muratus del Mur: in a poetic way so to say
Muratus del Mur: if you can imagine a perfectly empty universe .... big if .... you can realise that whats inside it could not be different ... if it was any kind of "creation" it would be slightly different, but its not
Muratus del Mur: we could be an imagine world inside someones mind actualy .... now here goes my sanity ....
Muratus del Mur: that i dont know
Grido:
Grido: dont go into the Matrix esque route
Muratus del Mur: i dotn want to know, but its possible, and would fit the rules so to say
Muratus del Mur: nono
Muratus del Mur: matrix is different
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: i am not talking about an illusion
Grido: hence "esque"
Muratus del Mur: theoreticaly..... the universe should be endless
Muratus del Mur: not in size
Muratus del Mur: in everything
Grido: i use that when someone (and it happens suprisingly often with me) starts talking about us living in a world thats not really here
Muratus del Mur: that means also it should not exist at the same time
Grido: scrodinger
Muratus del Mur: here is the dangerous trap that the mind cant agree to so we must fill it with a name
Muratus del Mur: because an absolute world it is, and that leave no place for an outside ...
Muratus del Mur: "outside" i mean
Grido: yeah
Grido: the old if the universe is constantly expanding, what's it expanding into
Muratus del Mur: now, if you remember what is said about god, with alpha and omega ....
Muratus del Mur: its riske ground
Grido: yea
Muratus del Mur: because liek i first said, religious concepts are not alien about this, but they a presented with a differen purpose
Muratus del Mur: afterall how can a normal sane mind accept that "nothing" can coexist with "everything"
Grido: the best way to hide the truth is by putting it in plain sight
Muratus del Mur: yep, so they did, thats to admire actualy
Muratus del Mur: only thing that keeps me sane is searching for applications, because the theory itself would cause me to shutdown and say nothing
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: its like you start from nothing...because it starts from total nothing... and you go allover the world with samples and examples, and then you return to same nothing
Muratus del Mur: even the enthusiasm fades then
Muratus del Mur: its simply so
Muratus del Mur: its not even sad
Muratus del Mur: its just so
Grido: hehe
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: i wished i could talk these things face2face :
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: ;p
Grido:
Grido: you'll get your chance
Muratus del Mur: i will, oh i will so torture you
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido: and at the same time, there'll be no sleep
Grido: LOL
Grido: i have to swat up before i go there then?
Muratus del Mur: instead of a book i could print a blank page, that would say everything , but...who would understand it, ...only those that already know it
Muratus del Mur: so , i cheat, i go into the applications field
Muratus del Mur: because uses are endless
Muratus del Mur: and even if they are incomplete, they present portions of this
Muratus del Mur: and its enough
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: afterall, that space inside your mind where you have to decide on your own what to put there, nothingness, god, whatever, should be left untouched by a book
Muratus del Mur: but the entire thing around it, that can be explained, with details
Grido: hehe
Muratus del Mur: i am (re)searching now something, if i die before i write it, it wont be a wonder ))) .. no i am not paranoid yet, it was a joke
Grido: it's all about influencing, rather than forcing
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: based on the same logic with the complexity levels .... it also means fantasy can never become reality because its a endless gap between the two "worlds" ... BUT....
Grido: side - take the forum status i just put up in the (inside) joke way as intended
Grido: there isnt so much a gap between the two worlds
Grido: because they dont exist in the same state
Muratus del Mur: if you bring the spectators in your level of complexity, the fantasy one ....anything is possible ..and here is the difference between magic as a science, and an art ..its an art to do that, is science to understand it as it is
Muratus del Mur: important note: complexity as i mean it doesnt means more complicated
Muratus del Mur: its like different world
Grido: yeah, i know
Grido: or figured
Muratus del Mur: how to say it better?
Muratus del Mur: ok
Grido: but at the same time, if you try and say that to a non-scientist....lol
Muratus del Mur: LL
Muratus del Mur: status
Muratus del Mur: ))
Grido:
Grido: i'm 'up' at 8
Grido: it's not too bad currently though
Muratus del Mur: read now
Grido: saw
Grido: i still blame you
Muratus del Mur: i have to make coffe
Grido: lol kk
Muratus del Mur: my crash point in these discussions is when the "adversary" or better said "partner of dialogue", brings in the ultimate destroying argument, god did it. I feel like strangle him throught the monitor
Muratus del Mur: i dont say yes or no, i say just hold on that thought and look at everything first
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: you knwo christianity said this too in other words
Grido: i try and avoid using that point
Muratus del Mur: dont give him a carved face , i think it was
Muratus del Mur: or picture or whatever
Muratus del Mur: and in islam, its the 1000 names of allah.... you name something 1000 times when you want to take away focus from one single name
Grido: because whilst god "did it" it's more he caused the environment fro it to happen, it doesnt explain the actual how, or why
Muratus del Mur: its doesnt explain anything actualy
Muratus del Mur: because in the end, god is ...just a point on a circle
Muratus del Mur: yes circles again )
Muratus del Mur: im obsessed with that i admit it
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: ever heard of the riemann sphere?
Muratus del Mur: thats the next chapter i have to finish in the "observing" part
Grido: no...*googles*
Muratus del Mur: google it
Muratus del Mur: its the mathematical explenation of my circle and dot theory
Grido: oh crap
Grido: i hate the 1/0 logic
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: )0
Muratus del Mur: yes its confusing at first
Muratus del Mur: but intuition hels more than logic here
Grido: i prefer adopting the roman way of thinking
Muratus del Mur: lol, to sword or not to sword
Grido: not that one
Grido: think about their counting system
Grido: 0 doesnt exist
Muratus del Mur: think about this ... acceptance of zero in culture is directly proportional with how people thing about god in that time
Muratus del Mur: its...something to think about
Muratus del Mur: because "nothingness" is one concept that is missing from our default thoughts package
Muratus del Mur: same with infinity
Grido: the main issue i have with 1/0 is the math...
Muratus del Mur: but, thats old new, new news is that i have more such concepts that are missing and can change out way of seeing things
Muratus del Mur: *news
Grido: whilst i agree that as you get infinitely closer to 0 you get an infinitely bigger number, i dont get it hitting 0
Grido: lol
Grido: awesome
Grido: i might be slightly worried about you having 6 more months to work on those
Muratus del Mur: lol
Muratus del Mur: what you mean
Grido: when we have our debates when i visit
Grido: you'll have better arguements
Muratus del Mur: ))))))))
Muratus del Mur: we might agree actualy ... that would be boring uuhhhh
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido: lol, yeah
Grido: but there's a very unlikely chance that we'd agree completly
Grido: each person is unuique and so no two perspectives are the same
Muratus del Mur: of course , there will be that gap ... hmm is it that one i talk about in my theories? lol
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: dialogues are ment to bring in new info and they do that be controlled conflict
Muratus del Mur: thats the point
Grido: i love the gap, but unfortunately people dont always believe in it
Muratus del Mur: if all woudl agreee, we would actualy shutup
Grido: like saying that someone's not neccesarily wrong, just because they're not right
Muratus del Mur: waht actualy hapend in a discussion with valy
Muratus del Mur: lol
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: we agreed on things, then it became boring, we both knew same thing, it was right, no more fun
Grido:
Grido: speaking of Valy, how's my lighthouse?
Muratus del Mur: brb
Grido: kk
Grido: i still need to get my head aroud information = energy
Muratus del Mur: man we realy need to stop, i have lots of work and its very late and as you said you are also awake form long
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Grido: alright
Muratus del Mur: as answer for above question
Muratus del Mur: energy = information is the way to see it
Muratus del Mur: matter = energy
Grido: yea, but how is energy = info, just seeing it like that doesnt make it so
Muratus del Mur: for example, you use energy to convert it into information
Muratus del Mur: you smash a glass
Muratus del Mur: energy changes into a static form
Muratus del Mur: the information is the one thing it changes into
Grido: but then information isnt something to change into...
Muratus del Mur: we will never end , its 4:30 am ! you are right , ok?
Grido:
Grido: just need you to post that here now; [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5398-who-is-right/"]http://magicduel.inv...8-who-is-right/[/url]
Muratus del Mur: lol people actualy voted ))
Grido: ofc
Muratus del Mur: and they have REASONS
Muratus del Mur: )))
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: i replied
Muratus del Mur: ))))))
Grido: lol
Grido: you were meant to say me!
Muratus del Mur: ofc!!
Muratus del Mur: duhhh
Grido:
Grido: *you were meant to say Grido!!
Muratus del Mur: its how nature goes ... im MD ))
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: damn now i cant stop thinking about the energy / information thing
Grido:
Grido: sorry?
Muratus del Mur: i am trying to explain how somethng can come out of something and go into something, yet it cant be converted in or out that thing
Muratus del Mur: because put with the equal sign it has a different meaning
Muratus del Mur: its like energy degrades into information
Muratus del Mur: information is the lower state of energy , nah i said it
Grido: there's an innate NO in my head lol
Muratus del Mur: same as energy is the lower state of matter
Muratus del Mur: lower (complexity) state
Grido: yeah, but i dont get how it converts
Muratus del Mur: heat burns something, that something "turns" into something else, heat goes away, ashes remain
Muratus del Mur: that heat is spread, endlessly, eventualy on a bigger scale lost in the universe
Muratus del Mur: because a limited amount of anything is equal zero divided by infinity
Muratus del Mur: and universe is infinity
Muratus del Mur: so what remains out of energy is the ashes caued by that fire, or the shards of the glass: i'm guessing you understand the chemical process?
Muratus del Mur: ?
Muratus del Mur: energy is conserved only within closed systems
Muratus del Mur: universe is not a closed one
Grido: like the X +02 > XO + 0
Muratus del Mur: nope no clue what those signs are
Grido: the formula for burning stuff
Muratus del Mur: sweet, if you say so
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: chemistry is not something i know
Muratus del Mur: except making bombs of course
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: Burning is actually just oxidising something
Grido: with heat added
Grido: LOL
Muratus del Mur: well it changes something right?
Muratus del Mur: and heat is not stored into that something in any way
Grido: well sure, the heat provides the energy for the reaction
Grido: to break the bonds
Muratus del Mur: and bonds remain broken
Grido: no
Muratus del Mur: after energy is gone, it will not revert
Grido: bonds break then reform
Grido: but in a different pattern
Muratus del Mur: a burn paper will not reasamble itself when fire is out
Grido: oh, no
Grido: if we take P as paper
Grido: O2 is Oxygen
Grido: P + O2 > PO + O
Muratus del Mur: ok
Muratus del Mur: > means grater than?
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lol no
Muratus del Mur: or just turns into
Grido: i cant do a proper arrow
Grido: reacts to form
Muratus del Mur: - >
Muratus del Mur: k
Muratus del Mur: so the point
Muratus del Mur: ?
Grido: oh right, need to read back now
Grido: oh yeah ""Muratus del Mur: heat burns something, that something "turns" into something else, heat goes away, ashes remain""
Grido: your explaining was off
Muratus del Mur: well you say its not so?
Grido: well the heat doesnt burn anything
Muratus del Mur: it changes
Grido: the state of burning technically doesnt exist
Muratus del Mur: into a lower state of energy
Grido: not neccesarily
Muratus del Mur: but?
Muratus del Mur: explain what you say it does
Grido: bonds have a certain energy to them
Muratus del Mur: when you burn a paper , or shater a glass
Muratus del Mur: (i listen)
Grido: but each different bond has a different amount of energy
Grido: so a C-O bond would say have an energy of 3 (numbers are random, no way correct)
Grido: and an N-O bond would have a value of 6
Muratus del Mur: wait, you say the burned paper has a higher state of energy?
Grido: it could, yeah
Muratus del Mur: its important
Muratus del Mur: because i dont think it does
Muratus del Mur: i think it has a lower one
Muratus del Mur: and thats essential
Muratus del Mur: because if its lower, then yes energy turns into information, if not, then i am wrong
Grido: to say, break a C-O bond, you would need 3 energy, but the bond that's then formed, might have a value of 7
Muratus del Mur: what do you understand by state of energy
Grido: excitement level?
Muratus del Mur: for me, fuel has more potential energy in it (not "potential" in mechanic meaning), than after it is burned
Grido: yes, if you catch it
Grido: all bonds have energy
Grido: they hold that energy
Grido: so that C-O bond, has 3 energy in it
Muratus del Mur: k
Grido: to break that, you need to overcome that energy, by putting more than that 3
Grido: that C can then form anew bond
Grido: which might have more energy in it
Muratus del Mur: that new bond, does not have more energy in it as the previous, it has less
Grido: no
Grido: it can have more than 3
Muratus del Mur: well this can be checked actualy
Grido: but it could also have less
Grido: depends on the bond
Muratus del Mur: i am talking about destructive processes
Grido: there's always a balence
Muratus del Mur: of course you can put energy into something and store it there
Muratus del Mur: like charging a battery
Grido: you cant destroy something without something being created
Muratus del Mur: but when you brake something, energy vanishes (eventualy on a large scale) but information remains
Muratus del Mur: exactly, and you create information!
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: nono lol
Muratus del Mur: ))
Muratus del Mur: braking a glass create information
Muratus del Mur: no energy
Grido: breaking a glass creates fragments of glass
Muratus del Mur: that mean more information
Grido: kinetic energy from your hand, gets transfered to the glass, breaking it
Muratus del Mur: exactly
Grido: the glass then gives off that energy in waves
Muratus del Mur: briken glass means more information
Muratus del Mur: energy creates information
Grido: eh
Muratus del Mur: but energy dies, information...not
Grido: it'd be more the same information in smaller pieces
Muratus del Mur: (trick is this happens only in an entropic system , but dont tell me that yet)
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: its not same info!!!
Muratus del Mur: i can prove it
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: if i said 0123456789 was a piece of glass, and hit it, it breaks into 0123 - 456 - 789
Muratus del Mur: noooo ha!
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Grido: go on
Muratus del Mur: can i tell pls pls
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: ordered systems can be defined by formulas
Grido: sure
Muratus del Mur: the more ordered they are the simpler the formula
Muratus del Mur: even infinity can be defined by formula if its ordered
Muratus del Mur: like fractals
Muratus del Mur: so, you have a piece of glass, lets make it a perfect sphere , for the sake of a clear example
Muratus del Mur: a perfect sphere, means a clear formula, little information
Muratus del Mur: a bunch of shards, means a lot of complex formulas, a lot of more information
Muratus del Mur: the more chaos you have the more informations you have
Grido: but put them together and you have the same information
Muratus del Mur: order is a form of storing information
Muratus del Mur: its like fuel, if you burn it it causes energy, if you "burn" order, it causes lots of info
Muratus del Mur: you need energy to put them together!!
Grido: cause = release, just to be picky
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: yes release its ok
Grido: this is my forereasoned pointing out about bonds
Muratus del Mur: objections sir?
Grido: ofc!
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: yey!
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido: ok, you have your sphere (damn i want to draw)
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lets turn it into a cube?
Grido:
Grido: makes it easier to describe
Muratus del Mur: lol
Muratus del Mur: ok
Muratus del Mur: sure
Muratus del Mur: md style
Grido: imagine each corner as a small ball, each corner connected by a string
Grido: got it?
Muratus del Mur: ok....
Muratus del Mur: you are getting more complicated than the sphere but fine
Grido: if you cut those strings you still get the same fractured,more complex bits, yeah?
Muratus del Mur: (im doiing a design for a web while talking so sry if i get slow)
Grido: is k
Muratus del Mur: in a way yes, only that those strings will need more info to describe them
Grido: i'm trying to describe it with words
Muratus del Mur: ok, continue
Grido: crap, need to remember the metaphor
Muratus del Mur: need help ?
Grido: lol nah, got it i think
Grido: imagine cutting a string, the balls the string is between can move more freely etc, yeah?
Muratus del Mur: ok..
Grido: there isnt any tension between them
Grido: energy is released
Grido: so if we take the state of the string being there as '1' and not being there as '0'
Muratus del Mur: uncertainty is also a source of infinite information you know having those balls in a fixed positon means less information than having them lose in unpredictable places
Grido: lol
Grido: the situation still applies
Muratus del Mur: i dont see where you go with this
Muratus del Mur: i feel i am about to fall in an invisible trap lol i love it
Grido: so yeah, you cut all the strings, ok?
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: ok..
Muratus del Mur: scary untill now
Grido: so the relationship between all the bonds is 0, as energy is released from all the strings
Muratus del Mur: ok
Grido: there is no tension or anything between them
Muratus del Mur: (information is created while energy is released)
Muratus del Mur: in your example i mean
Grido: cube = information
Grido: little balls = pieces of information
Grido: you were saying how information is increased
Muratus del Mur: cube = simple information, pieces = complex and unordered information (larger in quantity)
Grido: but it's the same amount of energy
Grido: by putting the same amount of energy back into the information, the information is reduced
Muratus del Mur: exactly
Grido: by that reasoning, i could irradicate all information
Muratus del Mur: *tries to pull foot out of invisible trap* I DONT SEE IT DAMN IT
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: ah
Muratus del Mur: i got it
Muratus del Mur: no
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: you need 1 point of energy to break the cube, but you need a lot more energy to assamble it
Grido: nope
Muratus del Mur: creation is always harder than destruction
Muratus del Mur: brake a glass, you do it very simple with less energy
Muratus del Mur: put it together, you need a lot of energy
Grido: there's the same amount of energy involved, just in different forms
Muratus del Mur: cant be, just imagine how you put a glass back in order
Muratus del Mur: or anything that is destroyed
Grido: wait, i'm using amount of energy "used"
Grido: rather than required
Muratus del Mur: moving one place back to its normal position, means no more energy because the initial state had no addition information in it in the first place
Grido: If a bond has a value of 3, then it would take so much to break it
Grido: when you reform it, it would still have a value of 3
Muratus del Mur: and answer me this
Muratus del Mur: the energy used to brake it , is it found in the remains?
Grido: of the glass?
Muratus del Mur: anything actualy
Muratus del Mur: yes glass
Muratus del Mur: fuel , whatever
Grido: partly
Muratus del Mur: partly means less
Muratus del Mur: so energy is not stored in the remains
Grido: we're using different definitions btw
Muratus del Mur: lol
Grido: the same amount of energy is needed
Grido: but it's not the same energy
Muratus del Mur: order means more energy potential and less information , while chaos means more information but less energy potential
Muratus del Mur: you deny that?
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: i'd say that order has a lot of information
Grido: just in a regulated state
Muratus del Mur: i dont know if you mean a higer level, or just more info than chaos
Muratus del Mur: because it has a higher level of info, but a lot less
Grido: let me think....stuff is more likely to happen in chaos than in order
Grido: because there are more possibilities?
Muratus del Mur: because its more information in it
Muratus del Mur: raw information
Grido: i dont like your definition of information i dont think
Muratus del Mur: and less energy
Muratus del Mur: so you need a lot of energy to put back chaos into order
Muratus del Mur: if you complete information with energy you get order
Muratus del Mur: and the opposite
Grido: the same amount of energy is released when order breaks into chaos
Grido: as is used when chaos gets ordered
Muratus del Mur: nope
Grido: it denies the principle of balence if you say no
Muratus del Mur: the ballance happens in closed systems only
Muratus del Mur: universe is a open one
Grido: the universe as a whole, is a closed system
Muratus del Mur: take a fixed scenary, decide where you put its margins, and yes its true
Grido: because nothing goes in or out of it
Muratus del Mur: thats a long discussion if universe is closed or open
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: it might be both actualy
Muratus del Mur: afterall is absolute
Muratus del Mur: thats why we name it UNI verse
Grido: or Multiverse, but that's a whole other debate
Muratus del Mur: but within a closed system, braking something requires less energy than putting it together, and because of unfair reasons....... i tell you why
Grido: with chaos and order, nothing is broken, or being put together
Muratus del Mur: all other forces or "factors" help when it comes to desctruction, but stay aside when it comes to creation
Muratus del Mur: for example
Muratus del Mur: the glass will collect""""" energy because the peices will fall to the ground
Muratus del Mur: so you will need more to put them back
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: but thats just an example
Grido: but the same amount of energy breaks the glass as repairs it
Grido: more waste energy is produced when repairing
Grido: but it's the same amount in the glass
Muratus del Mur: still , the _direct_ relation between energy and information exists
Muratus del Mur: its why we have order and chaos as extremes
Grido: with the glass thing, your theory suggests that if i break glass, then reform it, the same piece of glass, with the same molecules, will have more energy
Muratus del Mur: and because the system we live in is entropic at this point, things tend to go towards chaos
Muratus del Mur: no you will not have more!! i said you will need more
Grido: more waste energy
Muratus del Mur: when its back in its initial state it will have the same, but less information
Muratus del Mur: more waste yes
Grido: you technically dont ''need'' that energy
Muratus del Mur: exactly _technicaly_ you need it
Grido: it's just the methods we use are extremely wasteful
Muratus del Mur: theoreticaly you dont
Muratus del Mur: but that theory applies only to closed systems
Muratus del Mur: why in universe, by logic, energy can go to waste
Muratus del Mur: division by infinity remember
Grido: energy changes state, so theres no true waste energy, just energy is wasted
Muratus del Mur: energy is indeed wasted, while information appears
Muratus del Mur: thats what i am saying
Muratus del Mur: the difference in state how you call it, its a difference in information levels
Muratus del Mur: a broken glass contains less ordered , more abundedn information
Muratus del Mur: while a intact glass contains more ordered but less information
Grido: if i do 1/3 then i get information by putting "energy" in, if i then times it by 3 i would get 1 again, but the "information" would then be "gone"
Muratus del Mur: yes very good example
Muratus del Mur: math is cleaner
Muratus del Mur:
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: but problem with math ... is dividion equal as force with multiplication?
Muratus del Mur: i would say no
Grido: no?
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: because ....
Muratus del Mur: you can achieve a larger quantity of information by using division than by using multiplication
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: you can get an endless number by using division, while you always get a finite number by using multiplication
Grido: hm
Muratus del Mur: *blinks* am i right? lol
Grido: i'm trying to think
Muratus del Mur: ))
Muratus del Mur: its ...5:30
Muratus del Mur: !!!!!!!
Muratus del Mur: arrggghh
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: just lose damn it
Muratus del Mur: ))
Grido: never!
Muratus del Mur: )
Muratus del Mur: so cool
Muratus del Mur: ))
Muratus del Mur: save this discussion is lovely
Grido:
Grido: i save all yim logs
Muratus del Mur: ))
Muratus del Mur: nice nice, so you keep proof )
Grido: multiplication balences division
Grido: because they are opposites
Muratus del Mur: *trembles* does it?
Grido: ofc
Muratus del Mur: nah, irrelevant!
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: they are jsut by normal perception, that you see it works in a fixed example, like 6/2 = 3 and 3*2=6
Muratus del Mur: but over a larger scale, division wins
Muratus del Mur: remember period?
Grido: you can always reverse a division by multiplying
Grido: period?
Muratus del Mur: 1.177771777777177777
Muratus del Mur: its endless
Muratus del Mur: !
Muratus del Mur: nononop
Muratus del Mur: you CANT
Muratus del Mur: ha
Muratus del Mur: !
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: lallalala
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: you cant
Grido: show mw
Grido: *me
Muratus del Mur: period numbers are endless, you cant "hold" them to use them in a equation, so multiplying happens actualy with only a part of them untill you agree the result is close enough
Muratus del Mur: division creates infinity, while multiplication CANT
Muratus del Mur: division wins
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: 10/3
Muratus del Mur: =????
Muratus del Mur: 3.333333333(to infinity)
Grido: yeah, but if you then x 3
Grido: you'll get 10
Muratus del Mur: while 3*3.33333(a big, but not endless number) wont equal pure ten
Grido: unless it gets rounded
Muratus del Mur: becaseu you cant hold that endless number without the power of division
Grido: yeah, you put energy in to get the number
Grido: you get same energy out when you times
Muratus del Mur: you put same energy, but you get more info from division
Grido: but the information goes
Grido: away
Grido: the information is lost as soon as you multiply
Muratus del Mur: that if you multiply with that number but you cant, unless you request the help of division to hold that number for the multiplication process .. i mean (3/10)*3 = 10 (see divion helps) but 3.33333(lots) * 3 wont be pure ten
Muratus del Mur: division is more powerfull, admit it
Grido: no, because "3.33333(lots)" is not the same as 10/3
Muratus del Mur: but infinity you cant define or hols, not without power of division
Muratus del Mur: *hold
Muratus del Mur: so you cant actualy have 3.333 infinite
Muratus del Mur: without defining it as a fraction
Grido: i'm not denying that dividing gets these numbers, but i am saying that multiplying gets rid of them
Muratus del Mur: so multiplication works only when helped by division, but division works ALWAYS even if not helped by division
Muratus del Mur: 3.333 cant be defined as infinite, you cant type it actualy, you need to express it as a fraction/division
Grido: sure
Muratus del Mur: but without that division to help, you will never have pure infinity so multiplication alone cant reduce it back to pure 10
Grido: but multiplying that irrational number gets the rational number back
Muratus del Mur: what irrational number, you dont have it unless you use division
Muratus del Mur: (i dont think its called irrational!!)
Muratus del Mur: sqrt(2) is irrational
Grido: if you do 10^10n, where n is the sum of the value
Grido: then that's infinity
Muratus del Mur: because cant be a fraction
Muratus del Mur: 10^10n ?
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: explain
Grido: 10 to the power of 10 is 100
Muratus del Mur: you say you can get infinity with multiplication alone?
Grido: if you then did 10^(10*100)
Grido: etc
Muratus del Mur: thats a formula already, its not multiplication, its a repetitive process
Grido: sure, but you reach it
Grido: by just multiplying
Muratus del Mur: 1+1 is infinite if used in a repetitive formula too
Grido: 1+1 isnt
Muratus del Mur: division does that in first round
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: 1n+1 nah
Grido: infinity is defined by a number that cant be reached
Muratus del Mur: yes
Grido: if you keep adding 1 then you can aways say the number
Muratus del Mur: but its a repetitive process
Muratus del Mur: so it never ends
Muratus del Mur: so it cant be reached
Muratus del Mur: only predicted
Grido: well, fine, but your reasoning that multiplying cant reach infinity is false
Grido: it just cant get there in a single step
Muratus del Mur: multiplying alone, without infinite numbers to start in the first palce, cant
Muratus del Mur: if it can, prove it
Muratus del Mur: lol, in a single step is the idea
Muratus del Mur: in more steps, anything can
Grido: sure
Muratus del Mur: infinite steps means infinity in the first place
Muratus del Mur: its not the merit of multiplying, its the merit of those steps
Grido: wait, how'd we get onto infinity?
Muratus del Mur:
Muratus del Mur: no clue
Muratus del Mur: its almost 6am
Muratus del Mur: but there was a point
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: somehere
Muratus del Mur: ))
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: i know that if you lose division argument you lose an other one
Muratus del Mur: ))
Muratus del Mur: so i keep fighting
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: not sure for what
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: something with energy and braking
Muratus del Mur: that if you brak something its same thing as with putting it back
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: hehe
Muratus del Mur: i think
Muratus del Mur: who knows
Muratus del Mur: )
Muratus del Mur: but its fun
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: did we start this at 2am?
Muratus del Mur: omfg
Grido: for you yeah
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: 4hours???!?!?
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: lol
Muratus del Mur: at least i win last round , not sure what the score is though, do we keep one?
Muratus del Mur: )
Grido:
Grido: prolly best not
Grido: we'd end up debating whether we truly won certain points
Muratus del Mur: )
Muratus del Mur: true
Grido: you know your longest debate record, just do this with me in MD
Muratus del Mur: how long was it?
Muratus del Mur: 12h?
Muratus del Mur: lol
Grido: about that
Grido: but you were gonna do a medal for longest or somesuch
Muratus del Mur: ....someone needs to be a bit derraid from "normal" to do that
Muratus del Mur: you can post this on the forum))))
Grido: lol
Grido:
Grido: will do
Muratus del Mur: secret debate
Muratus del Mur: sweet
Muratus del Mur: its so nice, i love debates of this kind, you should see me never stop when i am face2face
Grido: lol, cant wait
Muratus del Mur: problem is , girls simply cant hold on ofter 2 hours
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: and guys, well i exhausted all
Grido: i'll be there around a week i think
Grido: not that i booked tickets yet
Muratus del Mur: a week, nice, we cant talk a few, with 4h sleep brakes ))
Grido:
Grido: breaks? tchuh
Grido: that's not doing it properly
Muratus del Mur: yeah i am getting old you know, i need to sleep ...not like you
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: record was ...
Muratus del Mur: 18h i think if i remember right
Muratus del Mur: with valy
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: im not joking
Muratus del Mur: ana was amused at first
Grido: wake up, start debate, end debate, sleep?
Muratus del Mur: after that she was like ... guys you are nuts?
Muratus del Mur: noooo
Muratus del Mur: streight 18h
Grido: yeah, what i mean
Muratus del Mur: ana was sleeping
Muratus del Mur: and waking
Muratus del Mur: and not believing we still go on
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: very creative talks
Grido: during one of your debates about circles she pointed a webcam at you two
Grido: lol
Muratus del Mur: btw ... some of the things i lost in this discussion, i know i did i just didnt admited and convinced you the opposite, or at least tried to, but i will write them
Muratus del Mur: i wont say where you were right
Muratus del Mur: personal ego you know, keeps me going
Grido:
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: but you did win several points, you just so easyly moved on not convinced they are so
Muratus del Mur:
Grido: lol
Grido: i have a short attention span
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: you knwo the most funny thing you can do to someone, is to convince him he is right , ...he will fight back that you are wrong
Muratus del Mur: like in tom and jerry cartoons
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: or bugs bunny
Muratus del Mur: i did that...at some point we were arguing about something that YOU said it so in the first place, but you argued with me that its not like that,,,,, after i started to convince you exactly what you said
Muratus del Mur: read it and you will see
Muratus del Mur: its funny
Muratus del Mur: and sorry i did that but i was almost losing a point there
Grido:
Grido: damnit!
Grido: thanks for reviving that who is right topic btw, i just got another point
Muratus del Mur: lol if you post this on forum people will be afraid to talk to me lol
Muratus del Mur: i voted
Grido:
Grido: ooh, YAY
Grido: should i edit this or just copy as is?
Muratus del Mur: middle path does not exist if you have just two options, sad reality, i had to vote to see result
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: whatever
Muratus del Mur: i will have to read it again, some things we talked changed some of my existing ideas
Grido: hehe
Grido:
Muratus del Mur: i will not tell you were
Grido:

Edited by Grido
Link to post
Share on other sites

@Grido
the "results" of the discussion are now in the book, a chapter about entropy and its importance to energy to information translation. It will be called "Signs of entropy". I am still trying to figure a way to put things so that some remain open , because in this discussion there were many things that opened alternatives, but eventualy there are 1000 of right and wrong ways, putting one on paper is enough to cause people to put the questions and thats what matters .. nobody can be fully right, (regardless of public polls *cough*)

I will probably put the text also on the archives. Please, if you have any objections or new proof in relation to the theories discussed, tell me. Most interesting ideas come from confruntations, i admit i never thought about division being more important than multiplication before this talk. I did my homeworks after this and i think i was right indeed. Without you provoking, this chapter would be missing :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

i must say.... a chemist against a physicist..... i actually understood everything you said mur.... although they do differ from my ideas, some of yours still could have relevence..... hmmmm..... one thing i can say relativly easily here is that you look to be considering infinity something, it isn't, oh and i read that entire log in 20 minutes :D didn't skip a line.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I apply all sciences :D not just chemistry

I'm going to re-read this at the weekend and get back to you on that Mur, hopefully earlier in the day than 2am for you though :D
No objections to it going there, but i might be able to think better and provide more proofs if i'm not half asleep :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cure for insomnia? Isn't cause more adequate, or do you believe in homeopathy?

For the leadership thing, I am trying to think of an analogy using lasers or magnetism, both can actually be used to store information (hard disks, holograms); not certain if it'll lead to any consistent results though.

[quote]
Muratus del Mur: can energy, matter, information (all 3 i see as the same thing in different forms but thats not the point here) , appear out of nothing and vanish into nothing?
Muratus del Mur: because particle physics says it can!
...
Grido: the scientist in me is asking for proof
Muratus del Mur: okok, i will have it
[/quote]
Quantum mechanics says you can violate the energy balance, as long as you do it only for an amount of time shorter than is observable. t ~ h/E
This means that every time energy vanishes, the same amount is created moments later (and not just anywhere, there are constraints on distance too). Which is [b]not[/b] as strong a premise as saying energy can simply vanish or be created from nothing and permanently ignore the laws of conservation.

[quote]
Muratus del Mur: think about waves
Muratus del Mur: the more higher the frequency
Muratus del Mur: the lower the amplitude
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: to keep same energy
Grido: (damn i hate physics)
[/quote]
For those who hate physics, here's some formulas :))

1. Mechanical waves behave like springs:

The equation for springs: F = - k (x - x0)
Wherein k is a constant depending on the flexibility of the spring and x0 is the position of the spring at rest, usually one takes a reference sytem where x0 = 0:
F = - k x and F = m a = m x"
=> x = - m x" / k [i](1)[/i]
This is a differential equation with the general solution x(t) = c1 cos wt + c2 sin wt
Using the constraints x(t=0) = 0 => c1 =0
Rewriting: x(t) = A sin wt [i](2)[/i]
=> v(t=0) = Aw
Since x(t=0) = 0, the potential energy at t=0 is 0, thus E = mv² /2
=> E = (Aw)² m/2 [i](3)[/i]
Hence amplitude A is inverse to w (= 2*pi*freq. )

Substituting 2 into 1: A sin wt = - m (-w² A sin wt) / k
=> w² = k/m [i](4)[/i]
(Since k is an undefined constant, this proves that the frequency can be anything (positive) even with the constraints used (further constraints on m are possible))

2. For a photon the amplitude A = E ~ freq
Not quite possible to increase the amplitude at the same time as decreasing the frequency here...

[quote]
Muratus del Mur: what irrational number, you dont have it unless you use division
Muratus del Mur: (i dont think its called irrational!!)
Muratus del Mur: sqrt(2) is irrational
[/quote]
1/3 cannot be accurately represented in the decimal system; every representational system has this kind of flaw for different numbers. You can see it in more detail on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point "For instance 1/5 cannot be represented exactly as a floating point number using a binary base but can be represented exactly using a decimal base."
This is a problem of representation of rational numbers, not of division/multiplication. I suspect this to be a consequence of how we are taught multiplication and division: first you learn to add and subtract, from that you learn how to multiply: 2 + 2 + 2 = 3*2 = 6. Since we all like symmetry we are learned to divide next but then the representation fails. Perhaps there is a (counter intuitive) representation wherein all numbers 1/n are accurate but where some n are not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

regardless of system/base, division can be used to obtain a "flawlessly represented" and infinite in that way, number, while multiplication cant. I still wait a proof where it can.

Laws of physics say many things, if you compare quantum physics with normal one, you will see they fight a lot, while both being right in their way. Actualy what i say relies on the balance in an indirect way...to put it in other words:

if something is capable of vanishing , (example, energy into endless universe) then something, according to the same balance, should be capable of appearing out of nothing.

Its only natural that in an entropic system, "rules" will favor the destruction and not the creation. Even if in theory you should use same energy to build as you use to destroy, in reality, is never like that. And i mean never. The universe is at an entropic stage and that is visible without any theories or telescopes. The law of conservation applies on ideal systems that are not affected by entropy.

Its simple to imagine actualy, think of this:
Consider the universe as you say, balanced, law of conservation works just fine, division is same with multiplication, etc ... now, on this sistem apply a force that is driving everything down, makes everything consume more, degrade instead of assamble ..ENTROPY..is will affect all these rules. They will still remain ideal in theory, but if you look deeper, discrepancies will appear.

I consider, and its a personal view only, that the universe might still be perfectly balanced if we consider also time. A system can be under influence of entropy one period of time, while under influence of syntropy the other period, and like that balanced. But without time in the equation, you will only see a part of the system rules, and obviosly seeing just a part, they will be incomplete and unbalanced.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Its not fair what i do now, but i am writing this article as a conclusion of my own, so you have a base for what to "attack" :P

http://md-archives.com/articles/161/1/Signs-of-entropy/Page1.html

Please use this forum thread for argumenting/debating.

Like i say there, the discussion is still open, i hope you can bring me proof and arguments to change my mind and prove me wrong...only in this way i can perfect it.

(this is the exact text i currently plan to use in the book so some things might sound related to text that are not in that article)

Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends how you look at 10/3

If you look it from a purist maths view, then it can never be represented as a "real" number.

But if you look at it from a real point of view, The more accuracy you have it will increase closeness to the number it should be (which is 10/3), You will reach point infinity that it doesn't matter if the number is 1 * 10^-infinity off or if it is correct, represented as a fraction. The degree of accuracy at point infinity is infinately small and therefore in bigger picture it is pointless.

Some would argue 3.33 is accurate enough and correct, But when you get to an infinate amount of decimal places the difference between the fraction and the "real" number then the practical difference is nothing.

The whole question is merely a matter of perception, How do you see this

I have a list of numbers, One to infinity

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... infinity
This number "set" has an infinate amount of numbers

Now what about
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... infinity

How many numbers has the second set got?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Another example of a real world entropic system is the "Survival of the fittest" model of evolution.

This model states that entities that don't have desired characteristics have a smaller chance to survive. For example, lets use fur color in arctic rabbits.

Obviously, a white rabbit is more likely to survive than a black rabbit, because it will be harder to spot. After a few generations, all the rabbits will be white because the black ones wont survive for as long to breed.

However, the result is a reduction in the amount of genetic material available.

Now due to the fact that some genes are recessive and others dominant, in about half the possible cases the "undesirable" trait will not be lost, just masked. We see an example of this in the moths of Industrial England.

Prior to the industrial revolution, there were two common varieties of a specific moth, the brown ones and the white moths. Due to the lack of airborne pollution, there were more white moths than brown. However, with the advent of the industrial revolution, within a few years there were barely and white moths and almost the entire population was brown.

After pollution control was introduced, however, and the amount of airborne pollution reduced to lower levels, the number of white moths compared to brown moths sharply rose, until they were once again about equal with the brown.

Now, due to the obvious fact that you can't prove the white moths were ever completely removed, you can't say the brown variety became white. However, studies conducted in which only each color of moth was isolated for multiple generations have shown that the brown moths were capable of producing white offspring, and like so with the white producing brown offspring.

This shows that the gene for each pigment is present in both, and also that neither pigment is fully dominant over the other. The effect of this was to mask and retain the "undesirable" traits.

However, masking process can only occur when the undesirable trait is not dominant over the desirable one, otherwise the only way for the survival of the fittest method of evolution to apply is through entropic loss of genetic material.

Humorously, this is the only case of natural evolution observed above the level of simple organisms (which do some very strange things indeed due to their relatively simple DNA structure, as well as reproduction methods) that I know of (feel free to message me other examples of observed evolution systems, I am always happy to expand my knowledge base but try to stay on topic in here :D)

Link to post
Share on other sites

infinity does not exist actualy. Its a "half-state" and has no meaning without the concept of absolute void. This has major implications on any theory of this kind because half-states (or name them as you wish , i have no good other name) , are hard , near to impossible to understand.

When you take into consideration infinity in the division vs multiplication issue, you are taking only one aspect of infinity into account. The entropy effect is still visible, its actualy made more visible by this.

All this is still under heavy "hardware" processing right now. I am thinking a lot about it and all your comments are extremely useful.

I remind you that the division vs multiplication "fight" is the proof for the energy to information conversion or the counter proof for that. At least this is what i consider based on the above discussion.

I could add an other argument , this time against multiplication, that infinity multiplied by infinity equals infinity, making multiplication unable to break a sort of barrier. if we look to situation of ZERO, its getting confusing,

this might result into an other side question, is infinity the _equal_ opposite of zero? I personaly think not, you have infinity on both sides of zero, so to say you need one single zero to balance two types of infinity , making zero have more authority
[color="#FF0000"]
[b]PLEASE - do not take what I say for granted, consider it a provocation for you to look into it and bring new constructive arguments. I might tell things as conclusions, but its my personal opinion and what i am actually looking for is to improve these theories by analyzing their flaws.[/b][/color]

Link to post
Share on other sites

About zero and infinity, I don't know that you should evaluate them so linearly. Rather than split negative and positive numbers by a central zero, like on a number line, you should merely consider the infinite set of real numbers on the whole. Now you have the infinity of real numbers being balanced by a single zero, and in this way, it's much more applicable to the practical terms "nothing" and "everything" which are very obviously opposites.

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='06 December 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1260151589' post='49339']
infinity does not exist actualy.
[/quote]
You acknowledge that infinity doesn't truly exist, or at least it sounds like you do, so I don't understand how you can argue that infinite energy or information can be created.

[quote]Muratus del Mur: in math, there are irrational numbers that are ..endless
Grido: yeah
Muratus del Mur: so a simple equation, causes an endless source of information[/quote]

In application, if you tear one piece of paper into thirds, you've merely created three more pieces of paper. You've divided the size but multiplied the quantity, and in neither case have you created anything infinite.

I don't know if it applies, but something interesting to consider is the fact that .[u]9[/u] = 1

1/3 = .[u]3[/u]
3*(1/3)= 3*.[u]3[/u]
Therefore .[u]9[/u] = 1

Here you see infinite information equaling something finite.

You then go on to discuss the universe:

[quote]
Muratus del Mur: theoreticaly..... the universe should be endless
Muratus del Mur: not in size
Muratus del Mur: in everything
Muratus del Mur: here is the dangerous trap that the mind cant agree to so we must fill it with a name
Muratus del Mur: because an absolute world it is, and that leave no place for an outside ...
Muratus del Mur: "outside" i mean
Grido: yeah
Grido: the old if the universe is constantly expanding, what's it expanding into[/quote]

I don't believe that any theory states the universe is endless. It contains a measurable (and relatively small) number of particles, and a finite amount of energy. It also isn't infinite in size or age. Scientific discoveries have strengthened the belief in entities beyond our own universe, and if you consider that our universe exists at all that fact should be apparent if you accept that it hasn't always been here. According to Big Bang Cosmology, in order for our universe to have had an origin something logically must have existed outside of it prior to that point.

Edited by Malaikat Maut
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]In application, if you tear one piece of paper into thirds, you've merely created three more pieces of paper. You've divided the size but multiplied the quantity, and in neither case have you created anything infinite.

I don't know if it applies, but something interesting to consider is the fact that .9 = 1

1/3 = .[u]3[/u]
3*(1/3)= 3*.[u]3[/u]
Therefore .[u]9[/u] = 1

Here you see infinite information equaling something finite.
[/quote]

To start off, the 1 is an infinitely significant number (else, it might well be a rounded off 0.[u]9[/u])

Now, as those 0's keep going into infinity (1.000000000000 etc.) You have an even number of "fibres" the paper consists off. You can not claim to have 0.[u]3[/u] of the fibres papers significantly because you'll have lost a 0.000...00001 somewhere. And therefore the 0.[u]9[/u] != 1.

Now, an example of how I (till proven otherwise :P) would have an infinite number equal a finite one. Imagen a line in a coordinate system (x,y) Y=X now, if we'd have the line Y= -X they intersect in 0 point. If we have a line Y= X+2 they do not intersect, so 0 points. Now, if we have another line X=Y. How many points of intersection do we have? We might have an infinite number of POI's, we might have 1 or we might have none at all depending on how you look at it.

~Obs

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's better math for proving 0.9999....(recurring) = 1, because 1/3 is 1 divided by 3, 0.333...is rounding down partially, a true third times by 3 will always equal 1, not 0.999...

x = 0.999....
10x = 9.999....

10x - x = 9x
9.999.... - 0.999.... = 9

Therefore, 9x = 9
x = 1

Link to post
Share on other sites

From Mur's article in the archive:

[quote]
The purpose of life itself is to breed observers, for nothing exists without someone to observe it. Existence is relative too. Universe itself would not mean anything without something to witness its greatness. [/quote]

Without meaning is not the same as not existing. You're making two different statements here, and I don't believe in subjective reality. The Earth has always been round...even when there was no conscious entity to observe it as being so.

Regardless, I feel that observing a universe that is devoid of purpose is no purpose at all. It appears as though you're arguing that the purpose of humanity is to observe and therefore grant purpose to the universe of which we are part. It seems to be a circular and self defeating argument.

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]Regardless of system/base, division can be used to obtain a "flawlessly represented" and infinite in that way, number, while multiplication cant. I still wait a proof where it can.[/quote]
Just because you can find flawed representations does that mean the numbers contain infinite information? I can easily propose a system in which all numbers have infinite digits:
1 = 1.[u]0[/u]
1/3 = 0.[u]3[/u]
Hence we don't even need division to have infinite digits anymore. Should anyone doubt that 1 = 1.[u]0[/u] I shall illustrate it with 1 =/= 1.0000000..01 for any finite number of zero's between the 1s. Of course we never write it that way, but does that matter?

[quote]Laws of physics say many things, if you compare quantum physics with normal one, you will see they fight a lot, while both being right in their way. Actualy what i say relies on the balance in an indirect way...to put it in other words:

[b]if[/b] something is capable of vanishing , (example, energy into endless universe) then something, according to the same balance, should be capable of appearing out of nothing.[/quote]
I mentioned quantum because you mentioned particle physics and quantum is more accurate than classical physics on that scale. Both models have scales on which they represent the universe adequately and in a useful way. Quantum physics works perfectly fine in the range where we use classical physics, and gives the same results, but calculating it that way is way too much work, which is why we use the simpler model there.

And I still want to see that if.

[quote]this might result into an other side question, is infinity the _equal_ opposite of zero? I personaly think not, you have infinity on both sides of zero, so to say you need one single zero to balance two types of infinity , making zero have more authority[/quote]
Mathematically infinity is the inverse of zero with regard to multiplication, where 1 is the neutral element. Multiplying zero and infinity is undefined.
For addition, minus infinity is the opposite of positive infinity, with zero the neutral element. Infinity minus infinity is also undefined. The opposite of zero is zero. (And yes there are cases where maths uses positive and negative zeros, eg. when working with limits.)


From the archive article:
[quote]Imagine you have a glass, for the sake of example lets say its a perfect sphere (or any other ordered geometrical shape). The quantity of information it contains is small, you could use a simple formula to describe the glass sphere and it will be perfectly accurate.[/quote]
This is also a question of representation in my opinion.
You have said "Muratus del Mur: so a simple equation, causes an endless source of information" in relation to the infinite possible 2d representations of a 3d object. Why should I use your simple equation for the perfect glass sphere in this case? If instead I say it has uncountably many information, it becomes impossible to find something that has more information (afaik there is nothing bigger than uncountable infinity).

Something to consider: how do you define information? Suppose I have a message and I encrypt it using a key. If I then give a person only the key or the encrypted message, they will not be able to reproduce the original message. Both the key and the encrypted message can be considered as partial information, which is only of practical use if you have both parts. But there is also the information that the key belongs to that message, or a CSI agent could be interested in the kind of ink used to write the message...



@Kyphis [topic='4843']read this![/topic]

Link to post
Share on other sites

computer crashed after i wrote a loooong post :P(

so here is the short version again

@Mailakat,Grido
1/3 = .3 -> is WRONG
your 0.9x10 example Grido, uses 1/3 already, because you can't describe 0.333... in a complete way without it. Without division you will always miss a 0.00...001.

of course (1/3)*3 is 1, but without the division its not, that was my point, And i am still not convinced i am wrong on it.

[quote]I don't believe that any theory states the universe is endless. It contains a measurable (and relatively small) number of particles, and a finite amount of energy. It also isn't infinite in size or age
[/quote]

A fractals is not endless from "outside" it but its endless from inside. You can define it with a formula and calculate even its volume/surface, yet itsedge is infinite. I think universe is BOTH infinite and finite just like that. Matter and energy are forms of what it contains. Actualy, very recent discoveries say that neutrinos build the universe and that matter is only a degrading of them. Neutrinos might actualy "fill" the entire thing we call universe, making it like a big soup.
Universe is as endless as 1/3 , it has a size ,but if you break it down in any point it will be endless because it keeps expanding.

[quote]
Just because you can find flawed representations does that mean the numbers contain infinite information?
[/quote]

No, you are right its not infinite information, 1/3 is just "hard to match" information, without using division. Its still one step forward.
To relate this to the original thought... if you have a perfect circle (because its the simplest 2d shape) you have less information than you wouldhave with lets say a star shape. An irregular shape would have even more information stored in it. I am not sure but i dont think you can have endless information out of a finite system.

There was a joke, how long is the coast of England..answer was that it depends on the length of the ruler you measure it with. If you divide it in smaller chunks is longer, if thery are bigger chunks the coast appears smaller. Eventualy with an endlessly small ruler, it would be endlessly big :P

@KAFUUKA,
no quantum does not respect classical. in quantum you can have a particle jump from one place to an other without actualy going all the way there (eletron energy levels). That and much more are impossible in classical physics. Theyare not compatible from what i know of.


to stay relatively on topic, i keep reformulating the initial issue so that it keeps same meaning but refreshes the point of view, so:

Are there signs/proof that destructive processes (division being one) are more powerful than constructive ones (multiplication) and that they are not balanced equaly (like infinity vs zero)

Edited by Muratus del Mur
DONE
Link to post
Share on other sites

one more thing, about the intro. Universe is a system in motion, it was not the same 1billion years ago, it will not be the same 1 billion from now. Maybe life as resource of observers is needed only now? Maybe time is irelevant in the "life" of the universe so we apearing now covers for the times we were never here. Afterall we are looking in the past when we watch the stars so we observe the past too.

The most plausible thing about time is that its not linear as we are used to. I don't have proof for that yet, but i have a strong feeling one day it will be proven that time is not past-now-future but its more compact as a whole.

(how shades see it:)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a crazy idea:

There is such a thing as a Hausdorff dimension. Essentially it works like our world: 0 is a point, 1 is a line, 2 is a plane, etc.

The Hilbert curve is a space-filling factal. To build a hilbert curve, you start first with a square missing one side. Then you combine three of these boxes together with a line in between each box. Then you combine three of these shapes together with three more segments. Continue doing this until the entire area is filled, going to infinity.

Here's an example (courtesy of wiki):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Hilbert_curve.gif


What is the Hausdorff dimension of this fractal? You might be tempted to say 1, because the fractal is only one line filling up a space, but in reality the Hausdorff dimension of this fractal is 2, a plane.

Awi

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='07 December 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1260212263' post='49396']
@Mailakat,Grido
1/3 = .3 -> is WRONG
your 0.9x10 example Grido, uses 1/3 already, because you can't describe 0.333... in a complete way without it. Without division you will always miss a 0.00...001.

of course (1/3)*3 is 1, but without the division its not, that was my point, And i am still not convinced i am wrong on it.
[/quote]
1/3 = 0.[u]3[/u] is wrong? If you use tail division, you will after n+1 steps get "0." + n times "3" as your quotient (concatenate it as a string) and "0." + n-1 times "0" + "1" as remainder. Mathematical induction allows us to say 1/3 = 0.[u]3[/u] wherein we mean the 3 is repeated infinitely. You can see this as an extension upon the decimal representation if you must and say that without this extension 1/3 cannot be represented in the decimal system. You can then use the proof Grido used to say that 0.[u]9[/u] = 1.[u]0[/u] = 1 = 3/3, with induction on all the digits or with epsilon-delta proofs.
(Not everybody believes in induction, but then again not everybody believes in infinity and in both cases the math becomes a lot more difficult to prove all theorems that have been proven (and for some of those practical applications exist)).


[quote]No, you are right its not infinite information, 1/3 is just "hard to match" information, without using division. Its still one step forward.
To relate this to the original thought... if you have a perfect circle (because its the simplest 2d shape) you have less information than you wouldhave with lets say a star shape. An irregular shape would have even more information stored in it. I am not sure but i dont think you can have endless information out of a finite system.[/quote]
I fail to see how it is a step forward especially since 1 can also be represented as having countable infinite zero's. Square roots and pi are more likely candidates for your step, since those are irrational numbers and pi is actually linked to circles and spheres, you should like pi(e).

As for information contained in a circle, I ask you again, why should I take the smallest set able to describe it all (3: origin and diameter if talking 2d) instead of the largest set: the uncountable infinity of points that make the circle? For 1/3 you chose the most difficult representation, now you want to choose the easiest? If you take the easiest then yes, a symmetrical star shape would have more parameters to describe it (6+); if you merely look at the full set of points, it too is uncountable infinity.

For the glass sphere, I also have to guess how you define information, but I would strongly suggest not to use the set of points (subatomic particles) there either. imo you'll have to drop the 1/3 argument in favor of always using the smallest representation.

[quote]no quantum does not respect classical. in quantum you can have a particle jump from one place to an other without actualy going all the way there (eletron energy levels). That and much more are impossible in classical physics. Theyare not compatible from what i know of.[/quote]
That is not what I meant: it is classic which does not respect quantum when looking at the scale for which quantum effects are important (usually this means nanometers or smaller). Quantum is a more modern and more exhaustive model than classical physics. That we still use classical physics is because for larger scales, if one were able to describe the problem with quantum physics the difference would be negligible (averaged out). The same holds for special (and general) relativity: for velocities close to zero (far from light speed) the difference in outcome between special relativity and classical physics is smaller than the usual measurement error.
There have been difficulties in uniting general relativity and quantum, which doesn't surprise me since general relativity is capable of giving anyone a headache (using symbols with four indices repeatedly in every equation is not funny).

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='06 December 2009 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1260113072' post='49300']
Its not fair what i do now, but i am writing this article as a conclusion of my own, so you have a base for what to "attack" :)

http://md-archives.com/articles/161/1/Signs-of-entropy/Page1.html

Please use this forum thread for argumenting/debating.

Like i say there, the discussion is still open, i hope you can bring me proof and arguments to change my mind and prove me wrong...only in this way i can perfect it.

(this is the exact text i currently plan to use in the book so some things might sound related to text that are not in that article)
[/quote]


Let me get this straight ...

" A part of our life is syntropic, while the other part is entropic. The bridge between the two parts of our lives happens at around 25 years but depends on person. In the second half of our lives everything is goverend by entropy, we degrade and we die eventualy.


Syntropy and Entropy happen in [u]separate time intervals[/u] of our lives. "

As I do not know to talk with numbers I'm sending this (Hope you understand :unsure:)

Example: A person is sick, then this in a state of Entropy, and when s/he heals returns to the state of Syntropy. Correct?

But what if the disease is incurable but not fatal, then the person will live. What happens? A state of entropy, symtropy or a coexistence of both?


Funny: [url="http://www.dali-gallery.com/images/thumb/_1960_28.jpg"]The Maids-in-Waiting (Las Meninas)[/url]

Edited by Sephirah Caelum
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Forum Statistics

    16,507
    Total Topics
    178,114
    Total Posts
  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
  • Recent Event Reviews

×
×
  • Create New...