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Low-Leveling


Burns

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http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5680-storymode-change/page__view__findpost__p__48625

Mur mentioned something about skill-caps for each mp-level there, so i guess this is the right time to break off a nice little brainstorming/discussion-session and see what happens... and if Mur gets inspired by us ^^

So, basic question seems to be, do we want people to stay on low mp-levels forever or not?
To me, the answer is very clearly NO, since lowleveling destroys the game both for newbies, who get hit very hard very often, and for vets, who have nothing left to kill up there on mp5.

What are possible solutions? Do we force people to move on? Do we make mp5 a lot more attractive and see if they move themselves?
I think both has to be done, so here are a few possible means:

MP3:

Yeah, tough one, how do we put a requirement that newbies don't hit before understanding concepts, which can't be circumvented by god-modders too easily...

I suggest people get force-pushed to mp4 when they have any creature that has an attack-value of 80 or more, which, if i remember right, covers
[spoiler]hatchlings, elite knators, Dark Archer 2s, Huvourers, jokers, elite lorerootian archers and majestics
(i used names instead of levels to avoid spoiling too much, but i guess the people i want to discuss with know what i mean with each)[/spoiler]

Sounds evil? For those who do excessively low-level, yeah, for the rest of the population, it makes mp3 longer than it is currently
Another idea might be pushing people with a stat-limit, but thruth be told, one can sneak around a stat-requirement very easily, so i don't consider this a valid solution

toying with various other thoughts (push for first all-hitter, push for multi-ele, push for xp) seem very easy to overcome if you know just a wee bit about what you are doing, the only other thing i can imagine is pushing for wins, but that's not good for active newbies who do a lot of 'little victories' every day without getting their wins on the 'right' creatures, and they'd really be pretty screwed on mp4... i guess, prove me wrong XD


MP4:

i think that mp4 suffers from the same problem, but there might be a few solutions that don't involve forcing people to play with the big guys if they don't want to, but then they also have to live with a few rights missing (call them the big-guy-rights, if you like)

so, possible 'rights' to be taken from mp4 to make them think twice before god-modding:
-no access to Wish Shop-items other than give-vitality, invisibility and locate (call them the RP-spells)
-no access to some shop-features (i'm thinking about collector-crits and tokens mainly)
-no access to the ol' hidden shop and no access to medusa's weapons and breast-plate-thingy

i think that pretty much covers all things that make combat cool... leaving people the freedom to stay on mp4 and do their RP as they please without interferance from the evil grinders (*mwahaha*), and forcing the rest of the players to advance, bringing more mp5 into the game for us evil grinders to hunt, but also more weaklings for the 'weaker' mp5 to feast upon until they make it out of the usual 'i get beaten to pulp by 4 out of 5 mp5'-dilemma


MP5:

Yeah, it's not only their fault that we have nothing to kill, it's also our fault!
so:
-no stat-reward and no creature-wins/xp for smashing people who have less than 20% of your own active days (leaves you the freedom of doing it for fun, but your gains are null in such fights, obviously comes with a 'too young'-warning so we know who gives us nothing, might make veterans stop hitting newbies on 5)

very short list... uhm... i guess somebody can come up with better ideas without completely destroying the fun of vets and grinders...


comments? other ideas? better solutions than me? let's hear your voice, and don't forget to cast a vote up there :D

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[quote name='Burns' date='30 November 2009 - 07:07 PM' timestamp='1259604478' post='48767']
MP4:i think that mp4 suffers from the same problem, but there might be a few solutions that don't involve forcing people to play with the big guys if they don't want to, but then they also have to live with a few rights missing (call them the big-guy-rights, if you like)so, possible 'rights' to be taken from mp4 to make them think twice before god-modding
:-no access to Wish Shop-items other than give-vitality, invisibility and locate (call them the RP-spells)
-no access to some shop-features (i'm thinking about collector-crits and tokens mainly)
-no access to the ol' hidden shop and no access to medusa's weapons and breast-plate-thingy
i think that pretty much covers all things that make combat cool... leaving people the freedom to stay on mp4 and do their RP as they please without interferance from the evil grinders (*mwahaha*), and forcing the rest of the players to advance, bringing more mp5 into the game for us evil grinders to hunt, but also more weaklings for the 'weaker' mp5 to feast upon until they make it out of the usual 'i get beaten to pulp by 4 out of 5 mp5'-dilemma

MP5:Yeah, it's not only their fault that we have nothing to kill, it's also our fault!so:
-no stat-reward and no creature-wins/xp for smashing people who have less than 20% of your own active days (leaves you the freedom of doing it for fun, but your gains are null in such fights, obviously comes with a 'too young'-warning so we know who gives us nothing, might make veterans stop hitting newbies on 5)very short list... uhm... i guess somebody can come up with better ideas without completely destroying the fun of vets and grinders...comments? other ideas? better solutions than me? let's hear your voice, and don't forget to cast a vote up there :D
[/quote]

Well, main problem if you ask me are the restrictions..spells from the wishshop could possibly get an age requirement as well if you ask me, but it shouldnt. It's hard enough to come by WP for them, so then even restricting the amount may backfire if you ask me. As for the MDShop, age requirement exists. Any more would not be wise imo, since you have to see it like this:

You can and should go on to mp5, but you do not need to (like Z proves).

MP5: You kidding me, 20%?!!! If you then take into account the really active vets easily pass the 500 mark, this may lead to a lot less people able to farm. I'd lower it, more like 10-15%, which would still be enough if you ask me. Even then this goes into the direction of serverside protection of people, which I dislike. I mean, i'm fine with voluntary agreements on that, but actually coding it..is awfully ..disturbing my rest.

On another note, mp3: Just lower the exp cap a bit. That prevents too much farming up, and makes mp4 more of the combat way as well. Fits in the with the different fighting systems, basic to advance.

As for low levels..you can manage with lower MPs, but then again, there's also a reason why sometimes more is less and less is more, and sometimes the other way around, more is just more. Everyone has his own reasons, and I tend to believe mp5 is best, else I'd have stayed way longer at low mps. (yes, even if I'd have hit cap)

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I have a slightly different approach to this, instead of what you suggest, why not enable higher level creatures when you have a higher mp. Being a higher mp means your mind is able to project creatures more profficiently. So why not have more powerful creatures when you hit another mp.

Mp3s should be restricted to public creatures only. But not the max levels.
Mp4s should be able to access loreroot and necrovion creatures. And public creatures max levels.
Mp5s should have access to all creatures accept certain really special ones. (an incentive to become mp6)

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Mp6 is supposed to be a non-fighting mind power. So why give only them access to certain crits? It's absurd. Not to mention that if you do this then the story from this spring/summer will repeat itself: players will become mp6 to get what they want and then go back to mp5.

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mp3 flaw: what if an mp3 buys or wins a joker?

mp4:
-no access to Wish Shop-items other than give-vitality, invisibility and locate (call them the RP-spells)
What about clickies? And is the xp reset even worth anything at mp5?
-no access to some shop-features (i'm thinking about collector-crits and tokens mainly)
Some people like to collect things not for war but for collecting. If it wasn't for collecting and things like the Loreroot guards, I might've sacced all my creatures and be done with the combat.
-no access to the ol' hidden shop and no access to medusa's weapons and breast-plate-thingy
I seem to remember mp3s with full sets

generally: no matter how good your system, if it isn't 100% proof, someone will find a way to exploit it and others will copy him/her. I'd rather not experience nerfs for such a thing, I already consider myself quite harmless when it comes to creature combat. And why do people stay on a lower mp level anyway? To age their creatures, because they don't really care about combat or to win HC. Perhaps if they are really sad people, they like to pick on newbies even if they don't get anything in return because they have hit the cap. If we ignore the last possibility, the easiest motivation for people to move up is to deny HC participation if a character is too old for its level.

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I must admit I really don't see a need to push people to another level. Forcing someone along doesn't really benefit them just the person waiting hungrily at the next level.

Besides, if the lower MP level joins an alliance, MP5's in an alliance can beat on them.

Maybe create a battle arena where MP level doesn't matter. Then all levels can beat each other all they want.

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I'm just gonna put my totally selfish opinion out there: I've got over 400 active days, but lots and lots of people can beat me...I like fighting and slowly getting stronger, rather than just farming creatures for huge stats (mostly impatience x3)...if it's based on time in MP5, it'll just leave me behind, and I don't necessarily want that :/

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[quote name='Pipstickz' date='01 December 2009 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1259628588' post='48786']
I'm just gonna put my totally selfish opinion out there: I've got over 400 active days, but lots and lots of people can beat me...I like fighting and slowly getting stronger, rather than just farming creatures for huge stats (mostly impatience x3)...if it's based on time in MP5, it'll just leave me behind, and I don't necessarily want that :/
[/quote]

And I'm over 500 days and weaker than Pip. So it makes two people, and I'm sure there are more "vets" wwho doesn't stat grind everyday (I think chewy is also aroudn the same strength as I do, and a lot older). If time basis comes out, it's forever bye2 combat for us =(

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[quote name='Kafuuka' date='30 November 2009 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1259623349' post='48779']
mp3 flaw: what if an mp3 buys or wins a joker?
[/quote]

Perhaps you should create an alt and see mp3 for yourself, There are not just jokers, iv also seen a nearly fully level dracorn with tokens, an angien and about every Mdshop crit on mp3.

[quote name='Udgard' date='01 December 2009 - 04:36 AM' timestamp='1259642177' post='48793']
And I'm over 500 days and weaker than Pip. So it makes two people, and I'm sure there are more "vets" wwho doesn't stat grind everyday (I think chewy is also aroudn the same strength as I do, and a lot older). If time basis comes out, it's forever bye2 combat for us =(
[/quote]

So im over 700 days and the same strength as Udgard, So if you base strength on age, techincally i should be one of the strongest, The fact is, i cant really kill anyone in mp5. So anything that will stop me attacking weaker people will just make me want to play less. As it is i try and keep my crit vital low so i dont have to fight.

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true enough, that's some sort of problem...
guess there got to be a better solution to protect mp5-newbies... if they need it, that is [which they do, imo]

that doesn't change anything about the mp3-issue, though...
Chewie kindly enlightend us about the situation on mp3, and i think that a lot of people leave MD becasue they have no chances even on their first steps, a thing that should be prohibited by the MPs that divide us, but seriously, it doesn't work obviously...

it's tough enough to face rusties and drachorns on mp5, what does a little newbie think?
'Seems like i have to invest 100 bucks into a drachorn and tokens to be able to compete, what a fun game'?
'Uh, look there, if i wait 100 (actually not 100, spoiler) days i can have that nice uber-creature, too, let's do that'?


i know that playing god is fun, but if people down there, who are unable to train any creatures anyway and therefore use their best crits all the time, EXIST, they scare away newbies, at least that's my opinion, and my reason to look for ideas...

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And why would you have to force someone to go to MP5? What is the problem to stay in MP3 and MP4?

You are missing the part that there are players that play for the RP mostly and not for the battles. Well yes, i guess they could just donate or sacrifice their monsters and don't battle at all, but it's always fine for a change to have a battle against an enemy close to your strength. MP5 is best? Why is that? Because you have no exp cap? Restricting MP4s from obtaining spells from the wish shop is a truly indecent idea. Everyone works hard to obtain WPs, and we all know they are not easy to get, despite the MP level of the character. Most quests are open to every MP, so if you are MP3, 4 or 5 doesn't matter. And what are you aiming with forcing people to become MP5? To make people exploit the MD Shop bonus? War for adepts, which will be forcefully made MP5 and voila, you have 15$ bonus. I reckon there are enough MP5s in the GGG every day, for more than a decent grind. I'm MP4 and with 3-4 people in the GGG i could farm stats. It does take time, but what the hell, why should it be easy to grind your stats in the first place?

I don't know what is Z's opinion on going to MP5, but i surely think that it shouldn't be obligatory or forcefully, no matter how you put it. And what's more, just for the benefits of the battle system and grinding, which wasn't tolerated as a start.

Edit: The possible solution for overpowered MP3s is to prohibit trading the strongest creatures with an MP3 account. If they can't transfer a drachorn with a trade, then the only way to obtain it would be by a quest, fair and square. If they do that, they deserve to do what they want with it.

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“So, basic question seems to be, do we want people to stay on low mp-levels forever or not?”

It’s my understanding that the lower MP levels were more of a game mechanic to train and teach players in a progressive manner how to play the game and give them a chance to get established in the game before reaching MP5. Again my understanding, but there are really no levels in MD in the classic gaming sense and MP5 was supposed to be the main/only playing level short of a few select people that can reach a bit higher. But in general it seems that most players were expected to reach MP5 and that would be the common main playing area for everyone. Anything below that was to help vent and teach players, filter out the ones that would not fit within MDs vision and play style and ready the ones that would for the normal play mode MP5. Any MPs above 5 were again training levels for MP8 which I have only found evidence that 1 person has ever reached. But ranks above MP5 were supposed to be all together different in ways Mur has only hinted at short of saying they are non combat ones. Again, this is my understanding and it may be off.

With that though we see that players should not stay at the lower levels and those levels function are simply to teach and train. It’s obvious that veteran players figured out that they can transfer aged and more experienced creatures to their low level alts. Thus making their alts more powerful than a new players. Also through other processes veteran players can support each other during the head contests and take turns reaping the rewards from winning the contest further enhancing their character at the lower levels. This is only natural for veteran players to do in a game though, I’m not slamming them for doing it. But it is these veteran players that are causing issues and disrupting the overall idea behind the function of the MP levels. Making alts and staying at the lowest levels as long as possible to grind stats and transferring powerful creatures around is not what the levels were intended for. Truly new players can no longer compete at any level and face constant losses and seem to give up and leave the game. Now not all leave the game, some learn which of the MP3s are veteran alts based on their stats and avoid them. But then there is the danger of them learning to do the same thing once they are higher in level.

There is no perfect system and every solution is a double edged sword. Requiring level caps, limiting transfer of creatures, forcing upgrading of MP level, it will all help and hinder at the same time. We do need to do something though or we’ll never gain new players or at least not at a healthy level to keep the game alive and well.

I have a few options to offer:

1 Do not allow MP3 to have tokens, leave tokens for MP4 and 5 only. This will at least give truly new players some sort of chance at MP3 plus if they are mentored well by a good veteran they will be encouraged to vote and earn shop credits each day and save them to buy tokens with when they reach MP4. This will also prevent Veterans from transferring creatures with tokens to their MP3 alts and pawning noobs so badly which is definitely turning potential players away. MP3 was supposed to be a training level not a let Vets abuse the system and make even more powerful alts stage.

2 Make creatures MP level specific and only allow them to be transferred up in MP level, not down. Meaning MP3 can have creature XYZ only. MP4 can have XYZ from MP3 and ABC. MP5 can have XYZ, ABC and DEF creatures. Creatures could still be transferable between members of the same MP level. This could help prevent the more powerful creatures from being transferred to MP3 alt characters or new players that don’t need them or won’t understand how to use them yet.

In regards to my #2 comment I know if you take a truly new player this is sort of the way things are already. BUT it’s only implied and not enforced with a game mechanic. If a truly new player is smart and has help they can figure out how to get into Loreroot at MP3 but it takes patience and time. But Loreroot really has creatures for MP4s and 5s in it and an MP3 does not need them as they are supposed to just be learning how the game works at that level.

These ideas are not perfect and again they could be double edged too but they are ideas to add to our brainstorming efforts.

After thinking about it more, I don’t like the idea of forcing players to move up to higher levels. It should be encouraged but not forced. We should be able to come up with alternative means of protecting truly new players gaming experience and encouraging veterans to not abuse the current system so much to try and build the ultimate character.

Another option, make a “Gladiator” type of player rank or class. Yes this would split up MDs population but maybe it’d be able to keep an active one then. This type of player could do whatever they want within the current gaming system but they could only duel or fight with other players of the same type (other gladiators). They could transfer creatures and buy tokens at any level and would have no skill or power caps at all. This way the players whose sole interest is minmaxing their character and fighting over anything else, could be free to do so.

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I also am against the idea of force-pushing the lower MPs. If they don't want to experience other stuff, it's their loss, not your's.

I have a MP3, and based on my observations, there is no problem with the 'established' strong ones unless it is HC. They even help youngsters train and help enforce the MDP rules. (The real pain in the arse are the alts who are training their crits and think they're strong enough to neglect SG rules.)

The solution I would recommend is to give MP5 a feature that lower levels will look forward to.

Lowering the exp cap could also work on MP3, but it may make MP4s the new haven for alts since it also has an exp cap.

(Inner Magic is not yet implemented, right? It might solve the problem.)

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i'm wondering if decreasing the exp cap for mp3 would really be such a good idea:

the exp cap got [i]increased[/i] so that real new players had a bit of leeway to try and level different creatures, without having to look out for what is "optimal" and to make sure they at least had a chance to be decent-ish powerful before getting thrown into the shark tank. decreasing the exp cap will harm those new, experimenting players more than alts, because experienced players know how to min-max, if we have to.


i'd agree that giving more incentive to ascend by new or modified options, increasing principle caps, etc is the way to go ;)

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attract people to higher mp levels dont force them...
and any new restrictions or what not bigger than they are now are forcing, and forcing could be unproductive..

EDIT: if u look at the daily statistics on the login screen ull see that the number of players that jump to mp4 every day is usually 1 to 3, and why they dont last till mp5 i dont know, but im sure its not because strong mp3's scare them away.
and mp3's should be able to train same creats as everybody else without any restrictions because if u restrict them with low level creats or decreased xp cap everything u will get is even weaker players with poor creats that will not stand any chance when they move to a higher level where players have better creats, stats and everything. maybe increasing xp cap for mp3 would be good so they have more space to train and test what works the best for them and to be ready to defend when they jump to higher level...

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Personally, the only reason I play this game is for roleplay.

I know I am strong enough to do what I want, but I don't play this game for combat. The only place I tend to exercise my strength is the SG, unless I have an aggressive roleplay to perform (my recent forced transformation into a vampire hating wolf, for example)

I am [i]vehemently[/i] against any punishment for staying at the lower levels. I am only advancing when it is appropriate in my RP to do so, and while I hope to advance to MP4 very soon, I expect to be there for years.

However, in my comments on Mur's "WP for Days" scheme, I suggested that the WP only be rewarded when the player reach MP5. If there is a log of how many age WP a player has earned that they can see, I think it would encourage players to advance in their MP levels.

The freedom to stay at lower levels and play the game my way, bend the world to what I want it to be, do almost [b]anything[/b] I want is the reason I returned to this game the first time. If that is taken away then anyone who is like me... I do not want to see that sort of loss.

I like the idea of preventing MP3 from using tokens however, and if it is not possible to transfer creatures that have tokens to MP3 then veterans will be restricted from transferring their creatures. I'm not suggesting you do anything to the tokens that are already at MP3, that is retroactive punishing and you will see a lot of good players leave for it. Most MP3 go up or quit, so eventually there will be no tokens at that stage if you give it time

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For me...this is how it is:

MP3 is a level for learning
MP4 is an RP level
MP5 is a fighting level...the ultimate fighting level actually as defined

So...forcing MP levels seems like a total change to the system as a whole for me. A change that makes the system more automated and functionally processed which, if thats where it is going, is a good idea, but from the perspective of a role player isn't such a great idea. I suppose it really depends how you view the game. For me, as most are aware, its a no simply because I don't like the enormous cocky attitude and arrogance that resonates within the fighting system ruining the RP for me, and (sorry if i misinterpret here but...) not having enough people to batter doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me. However, if the game is indeed to become a more automated system then RP has little to do with that factor and as such this idea is a viable one.

Z

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Here's an idea: How about a totally different server for alts? It'd be neat for the AL, too...different world kinda stuff or something. If you abuse your alts, they get sent there. Sorta like jail, just not as severe...or severe at all ^^

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