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Guy's Question


Guybrush Threepwood
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So, is the natural state of things ordered or disordered? In the beginning was there chaos or order?

And to add, what are the ramifications of either? It is not really adding so much as a way to search for an answer. I suppose a public debate could be held, but frankly a public debate isn't really any different than the forums. So for now, I see no reason to have this anywhere but here.

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the natural order of things is that things tend to want to fall in "chaos" or rather be in a state in which they arent confined, hence the loss of energy as heat when energy is exerted for something, and the halflife of many types of elements.

chaos to me is really just nature, although without order there would be no chaos. Also it goes without saying that there can always be ways in which disorder is processed into order, in fact that is a key notion in life, processing something into a useable, more ordered form... and who's to say that those systems didn't just happen from happenstance in such a chaotic place as the universe?

in conclusion "chaos" is like the bottom half of the pyramid that supports "order", which supports most functioning systems.

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Well, it depends on which lense you are looking through. Everything in the universe is almost entirely bound by laws. If this happens then that happens. In terms of physics, among other things, everything is entirely predictable and expected, and there for ordered in it's own way. On the other hand, everything is also chaos on different terms. Though there are these rules, there is an extreme variety of things that can occur within the rules. And when you account for scale it is nearly impossible to predict anything, thus everything is chaos and nothing is ordered. But i believe that the natural state of things is chaos, simply because if it was ordered, then we would not exist in any form. For it was from the chaos of nature that the anomaly of life was born.

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[indent]I would have to go with the idea that things are initially chaotic, then become ordered... Just as an example take the way the human mind works, initially we didn't have much to our though process more of just a chaotic sense of purpose and urges acting on the reptilian impulses, eventual it came about to advanced cognitive activity in which the way thing are precieved are ordered. When we see things we put them into categories, either by shape, color.. etc... Associating them with other things which we can understand so we can have plausible comprehension. Then again one could argue that even the reptilian mind is functioning from a state of order, the body requires food thus we have hunger. Then you have the other issues which would matter more so, such as the actual nature of the universe in which your view on the subject would more or less be based on a specific creation theory. If there is no actual unified point of basis to determine things we are left only to ponder and theorize such concepts, which given no real point of origin to base things you could say that just thinking on the question would be chaotic :o If you don't have point of reference order isn't very plausible. Order in this case being the state of organization, we may have the laws of physics to base things off, but who is to say that they are not in truth merely the result of compounded chaos? If you look at it from different perspectives other than just the way we see things as they are, think about it from wholeistic time sense, who is to say that all that we know is hard truth for all of time and actually ordered? Like gravity, we see it as a force in which determines the motion of things. Now, imagine if you will that this was more of a mistake only actually plausible because of other fractured things.. Chaos compounded.. What is Gravity wasn't actually meant to exist like life it came about merely as "mistake" and eventually like life it will cease to exist in the universe...

Just food for flame and thought :)


[/indent]

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I was more talking about entropy and syntropy, but all of this is good too. Assuming that "in the beggining" (Ok, already people have problems with beginning there was order, then entropy is degrading all of that order. Second law of thermodynamics states that entropy will increase for all reactions, over all order is ALWAYS decreasing, though in theory it could stay the same. Now if that's the case, entropy and syntropy are NOT balanced, and any system not balanced can not exist outside an extreme after an infinite period of time, unless the system is oscillating (arguably a sort of balance.) So, initial state of order goes toward a poor understanding of our current universe (entirely possible) or that the universe has not been around forever. The second law of thermodynamics demands a beginning and a finite universe it would seem.

I'll leave the natural state of chaos for later.

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