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Should Lightsage be allowed to return?


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Lightsage's fate  

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Could there perhaps be a more detailed explanation of the crime? Otherwise it is difficult to make an educated decision. Preferably a case from both sides. Ideally a CASE from both sides. (For those of you not so big on subtlety I am suggesting that there be a court case on the matter.)

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I'll vote yes. He's a long-time player, and the crime itself is something that a LOT of other people do unpunished before. I agree that he should get a heavy punishment especially cause he did a repeated offense (creature deletion/stats reduction, something like that), but I think a permanent ban is a bit too harsh. That;s just my humble opinion, though.

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i voted yes for obvious reasons (he's amongst the few i consider my friends in MD), but like Udgard, and like Mur already claimed in chat yesterday evening, i think that a serious punishment is to be considered...

nothing as nice as Fenrirs prison-tour or a stat-reduction, however, he'd recover from both within weeks, i'd rather say that he needs some creative kind of punishment like a permanent account-upgrade to mp7 or something the like, making him unable to fight AT ALL until Mur sees fit to 'lift' the punishment and get him back to mp5 [sorry light, but what you did is very wrong =P]

and... there was something else i wanted to add...
oh, right, i don't think that this should be done in general, but Lightsage is a special case imo...
he's proven to be too dumb to stick to any rules just because they are there, but he might learn it the hard way, whilst the rest of the banned accounts was not worth the trouble of sticking to the rules [creating an acc like that is really hard work, while creating 'normal' accounts is a matter of 2 weeks at max]

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i would say yes to bring him back, poor guy... only if the punishment isnt stats reduction for that is gain-able in a week or 2.. ask eigger.. lol he got crazy with stats within 2 weeks or 3 weeks...
He should get something harsh which will be hard for him to recover from.. so that he will be reminded of what he did for some time..

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Well I do agree that its a harsh punishment, but we have to look at what he did.

Everyone is always trying to look for loopholes for an extra advantage.

But others who "cheat" (or just being creative) are normally just effecting themselves and does not hurt others.

When you cheat, and in the process hurt the playing pleasures of others, it is a serious matter.

As Mur said, he has been caught and has been warned, but he chose to abuse Mur's kindness instead of appreciating it.

Lightsage is creative and will possibly come back with a new character.

The starting over as a noob will be a challenge but it will hopefully teach humility and respect.

I dont know Lightsage personally but I do know of other players who were hurt by his actions.

Allow Lightsage to return, but as a new character.

Let the name Lightsage be a lesson for others who are tempted to cheat.

To lightsgae: No offence intended.

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i agree that severe punitive meassures should be reserved for cases where a player actively harms others to gain a unilateral personal benefit. this, as far as i am aware, is not the case with lightsage. afaik he tried to help a friend to win HC and ended up rank 4 in the process because it was one of the less active/ competitive months.
now, i'm not saying it should go completely without penalty, but a ban of his favourite and most active char is too harsh in my opinion.

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ill vote yes, i like Light. Hes an ok guy. BUT like others, i feel that there should be a stiff punishment.

id say something along the line of only being able to have the LightSage account ONLY. NO ALTS. and possible stats reset. I dont believe that his crits should be taken away tho, yeah he might have cheated AGAIN, but he paid REAL cash for some of those crits and the tokens that were attached to them. So i think that it is only fair that he gets to keep all that.

So yes, with a NO alt and a stat reset punishment.

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Let's be clear on what we're voting for. Lightsage the char in no way benefitted from any action in the Heads Contest. Lightsage's player is accused of using alt accounts to benefit other chars. So the punishment in question is for not only the alts but also the main developed char of this player to be banned from the game. Mur has said the player however is free to play another account.

I object to this poll because it too much must reflect the experiences people have had with a char who as part of his role is not always nice. I'll admit my own bias as I've a char very close to Lightsage, and know another side of him well. Nonetheless I don't think anyone can deny the contributions he's made to the game. We all get to take some advantage of the results of bug and rit testing, even if occasionally we are victims of it too. My perspective is that this is a rare player who also makes a contribution as a role-player. Losing a well-developed char from the game entirely imo is too severe a punishment for a crime of using alts in an HC, which we all know many people have done. I agree there should be consequences, but those should be weighed on the chars that participated and with respect to HC, not to the rest of the game. In this case, there's too much collateral damage with this action for innocent players such as myself who've chars developed in the game, in role-play, very much in connection to Lightsage the char. Mur is allowing new chars for this player, but the consequence for my chars in game remains. :)

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LS got banned for this?? i understand hes been warned before but IME plagiarism aka something that cn cause lawsuits is much worse. ban the account that won and take away from all of his accounts any winnings he has gotten from heads in the past seems the fairest to me and maybe even a credits fine

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If he shouldnt be banned for this then how many more warnings should there be for players?

If you keep disreguarding warnings then surely you must recieve some sort of punnishment no matter who you are.

But what the punnishment should be is a different matter. I would say this is about the same as the Rex Case, Perhaps the punishment that rex recieved should be re-adminstered?

But really if you keep getting told not to do something and you keep doing it you need some kind of punnishment. Otherwise the game has no meaning as people can do whatever the f*** they want

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[quote name='Kriskah Arcanu' date='04 July 2009 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1246736768' post='36144']
why are we discussing this?
Mur already took a decision.
If he wanted our opinion in this matter he would have ask us.
[/quote]
Mur did ask us. He suggested this poll.

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[quote name='Czez' date='04 July 2009 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1246737304' post='36145']
Mur did ask us. He suggested this poll.
[/quote]

I didnt know that. But it still seams weird to me thar he announces Lightsage┬┤s bann and then sugest a poll to discuss if he should be alloud to retourn.

He is already banned, so?

Maybe the discussion should be put different, like... does one or two warning and finaly a ban is wourth if the infractor is going to be able to comeback depending on the MD comunity agreement?

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[font="Verdana"]FACTS:
[list][*]He has cheated in (at least) two previous HC's
[*]He was warned that should he continue along that path, he would get banned.
[*]He (and his alts) got banned/warned due to cheating in this latest HC.
[*]Stopping him from competing in the HC, or removing reward from it would not affect him as he could then just use a different alt.
[*]This punishment is not exclusively for Lightsage, under the same, or similar circumstances, the punishment would be the same.[/list]

The following are personal statements:
[list][*]The statement that "nobody was competing, it needed spicing up" doesn't count for anything, we have HC's every few months in which nobody competes, doesnt mean cheating is needed.
[*]"nobody was harmed" doesn't count for anything. Me robbing a bank is still against the law even if i dont hurt anyone (extreme i know, but the point stands).
[*]Banning all the accounts is perhaps the only thing which might make him realise what he has done on numerous occaisions was wrong.
[*]There is no justification in joining late and cheating because otherwise people would accidently win. Things don't need to be "spiced up".
[*]Stating things like "if he doesn't get unbanned i'm leaving MD!" doesn't help. At all.
[*]"He had a well-developed char." Even if someone has the best developed role in the game, perfection in rp, and they do something they're told previously will get them banned, they should still get banned.
[*]Winning the HC in this mannor is for personal benefit, the character that places in the HC gains from it.
[*]Banning is appropriate punishment because there is no other punishment which would affect him in the same way as that.
[*]Cheating is not enthusiasm for the game.
[*]Other people, they get warned, they learn, and don't do it again.
[*]Just because you're able to cheat, doesn't mean you should.
[*]A stat reduction as punishment, he would just regain the stats, and quickly.
[*]The rules are not selectively enforced, they're just enforced upon those that ignore them.
[/list][/font]

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[quote name='Grido' date='04 July 2009 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1246741103' post='36149']
[font="Verdana"]FACTS:
[list][*]He has cheated in (at least) two previous HC's
[*]He was warned that should he continue along that path, he would get banned.
[*]He (and his alts) got banned/warned due to cheating in this latest HC.
[*]Stopping him from competing in the HC, or removing reward from it would not affect him as he could then just use a different alt.
[*]This punishment is not exclusively for Lightsage, under the same, or similar circumstances, the punishment would be the same.[/list]

The following are personal statements:
[list][*]The statement that "nobody was competing, it needed spicing up" doesn't count for anything, we have HC's every few months in which nobody competes, doesnt mean cheating is needed.
[*]"nobody was harmed" doesn't count for anything. Me robbing a bank is still against the law even if i dont hurt anyone (extreme i know, but the point stands).
[*]Banning all the accounts is perhaps the only thing which might make him realise what he has done on numerous occaisions was wrong.
[*]There is no justification in joining late and cheating because otherwise people would accidently win. Things don't need to be "spiced up".
[*]Stating things like "if he doesn't get unbanned i'm leaving MD!" doesn't help. At all.
[*]"He had a well-developed char." Even if someone has the best developed role in the game, perfection in rp, and they do something they're told previously will get them banned, they should still get banned.
[*]Winning the HC in this mannor is for personal benefit, the character that places in the HC gains from it.
[*]Banning is appropriate punishment because there is no other punishment which would affect him in the same way as that.
[*]Cheating is not enthusiasm for the game.
[*]Other people, they get warned, they learn, and don't do it again.
[*]Just because you're able to cheat, doesn't mean you should.
[*]A stat reduction as punishment, he would just regain the stats, and quickly.
[*]The rules are not selectively enforced, they're just enforced upon those that ignore them.
[/list][/font]
[/quote]
Grido, your points are more confusion and handwaving over the real issues here. We're talking about banning a char, and some alts, not banning a player. You seem to mix the two. I don't agree that removing a main char is appropriate. But that's what is at issue here. The player is still in the game as Mur said he's allowed new accounts. The char this poll concerns did not in any way gain from the HC, and couldn't have done as he'd won it in the past.

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Czez, the quotes that i've put are by YOU in defence of Lightsage. So at least in those i'm not sure how you can think i was waving over the real issues.

The main character is the same person as who controls the characters who offended.
The main character has been warned on numerous ocaisions not to do what he has just done with his alts.
The main character should get punished because any other account getting punished would not teach him a lesson for cheating.

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The rules are enforced consistently to those who repeatedly ignore the rules.

What punishment would fit it? Stat reduction, no. HC ban, no. listed why above. so what?

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the question is not "should he get away unpunished?" but if ban is the necessary punishment. murs mind doesn't seem to be settled at ban, or he wouldn't have made this poll in the first place. thats good enough for me to say that there can in fact be other methods to deal with this case than ban (maybe mur already has an idea).

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To Czez

Your worry Czez about people losing out if they have based their role around lightsage is partially just a worry for yourself. Your comment is correct about our opinion being based on how we have interacted with him so as with everyone you must try and work out what peoples "Angles" are on the situation

If your character is based around another then when said character goes away your character will need to face this. This would not destroy your character then he will have to move on and change.

Ligsage's sentence has been passed, BUT Mur still wants to know our opinion. This may not effect Lightsage but may effect people after him.

General comment

He has used many accounts to abuse the system. So just because he didnt use his main does that mean that his main is not involved. If i use an alt to swear and cuss Mur, everyone and the game does that mean that only my alt should be banned? No, i would expect a full ban and I.P ban. So if we apply the same principle just because my main account was not involved in system abuse then all my accounts should face a punishment.

The punishment for both these crimes is not punishing a character but a person. The characters may have been different but the person was the same. So evenmore perhaps the characters should not be punished but the person. But punishing a person and not characters is not possible. Therefore you need to do something with the characters the person uses to punish the person themselves.

Unless there is a way to punish a person rather than the characters he plays then this would be more useful but until such a punishment is availble we will have to punish players through their characters.

So feel free to flame/spam/hate me after i have given my full and honest opinion. i wont really mind.

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I agree with Chewett.
But there is a matter that I believe should be discussed among all that is been already said.
Rules. I believe they are not ambiguous (I hope I spell it right) And is pretty clear when this rules must be applied, to avoid unfairness, priviledges or what ever could generate disconfort inside the community. Not that this has happened before, but if we aloud to discuss this matter gives the impresion that future punishments will be also discused and put to doubt. So it has to be clear: rules are rules, and we are suppose to obey them, period.

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