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I do not hate you, brother, as I believe you know. Have I not made every effort to extend courtesy to you and respect your neutrality?

I do not think you mean to imply that I am your enemy, but when you speak of "all of Loreroot", you tar many people with the same brush.

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now i start wondering why Akasha may accuse other people and RPCs of anything she likes and i got shutted for critizing Kragel... by none else than Akasha...oh well, the right of the RPC, i guess... :P

by which i don't want to indicate that i don't appreciate Akashas decisions, they are good in most cases, but like you accuse Amoran of sticking up for her friends, you are doing the same, but with moderators rights :lol:

ontopic: 17 out of 43 does make the turnout look worse... but that's not the main point you are arguing here, if i got that right so far...

and well, Akasha's got a point there, if your praised Council is in fact consisting of just 3 or 4 people who claim to be 7, that's a rather questionable idea... :/

but i have no insiders inforamtion, so i'm not judging about those matters ^^

regards, a politically interested player =)

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Someone praised the Council? Who? For what reason?

Of the 7 seats on the Council, 2 are currently vacant. The Council can only function at all because 4 votes makes quorum - and a simple majority (among 7).

I await the results of the seat up for election, and believe the other will be filled when Council can meet again and make an appointment to replace the worthy Shadowseeker.

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Loreroot is like a state within the land of MD. In the United States, each state holds its own elections for its state government. To say all of MD has a right to vote for Loreroot’s government is like saying all the United States has the right to vote for Florida’s government.

If you really want it handled that way, who would handle the elections? The archivists? Who’s to say someone or a group of someones would accept their findings.

Who would run a complete census of all of MD? It took me at least 3 weeks to try and catch everyone just in the Loreroot alliances. I cannot imagine trying to catch everyone that doesn’t belong to an alliance.

Would you then make sure everyone voted? There will always be those who do not want to participate. I have found that those who did not participate complain the most.

The point I get from all this is there are those who wanted to vote, but do not consider themselves citizens of Loreroot. If that’s the case, join Loreroot and get involved. Those that we have elected are trying to get something positive going, but are unable to because they have to keep dealing with things like this. How about everyone outside of the Loreroot alliances give them a chance to get things going before you ruin the GAME for us.

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[quote name='Akasha' post='31912' date='May 21 2009, 01:18 PM']In MD there are ppl from ALL AROUND THE WORLD so, outside politics are kinda irrelevant to inside ones ....[/quote]

That argument makes no sense.

MD is a world that has many analogs in the real world. A government is a government, a state is a state. When Romanians have an election, do Ukrainian citizens get a vote? It's the same all over. Wherever there is a representative government, only the people represented by that government get to vote for who represents them.

It is completely fair that the alliances of Loreroot get to vote for their government and that the rest of the MD world gets no say. And what does it matter if a group of like minded individuals get together to form an alliance? Isn't that kind of the point?

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Thank you to all Lorerootians for the success in pulling through with these elections. Let us not be hindered in our organizational efforts to defend Loreroot by those from without.

Until this point I have fervently read this forum and participated in it, but unless something changes and the flame-wars die down, my energy will be expended elsewhere in a more productive manner.

Blessings to all,

Phantom Orchid
Priestess of the CoE

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Someone please answer me this.
The purpose of the HC is, in direct or indirect manner of way, in their best perceived interest of Loreroot, the land. Correct?
And the HC exists only out of members from the loreroot alliances/guilds. Correct?
And only alliance members may vote, correct?
And during election time, absolutely no one (random MD player) could/can get an invitation into the alliances, correct?

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' post='31941' date='May 21 2009, 08:25 PM']Someone please answer me this.
The purpose of the HC is, in direct or indirect manner of way, in their best perceived interest of Loreroot, the land. Correct?
And the HC exists only out of members from the loreroot alliances/guilds. Correct?[/quote]
Yes, and yes.
[quote]And only alliance members may vote, correct?[/quote]
Incorrect. Those unaffiliated with alliances may vote, provided they express their intent to vote to one of the Censors (Gremlin or Mya Celestia).

Those of other [b]homelands[/b] are asked to refrain from voting.
[quote]And during election time, absolutely no one (random MD player) could/can get an invitation into the alliances, correct?[/quote]
That such a thing could be assured seems unlikely. It seems possible someone could get an invitation into the alliances during an election period; there is no express prohibition against such a thing.

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You are right, Akashas argument failed the point unless she elaborates it a bit further [and i have an idea where she wanted to go and like that], but:

Seeing we are not in a developed orld in MD, but in a medieval one where the law of the jungle is common and every day is a fight for life and death, i have to add a point to Glor [and whoever had that before, it's been quite a few]:

You are totally right, we (the others) shouldn't have a say in your (the lorerootian) elections, as you are a different province of the MD lands (definitely no different country, as you don't have any power over the territory you claim yours), BUT, if anybody thinks that your governing body is not good for the province, they are free to go to war against you, kill ya all and place a new governing body as they wish...

and from that point of view, Akasha has every right of questioning your elections and ways of working, thinking and acting, after all she is still asking for you to change it yourself instead of deciding the changes she wants for you...

and if she wants to do it, she can, and given her special powers, she can not only do it by invading loeroot and claiming she shattered the HC and appointed a new HC, but she could actually go in, throw you out, freeze you at GoE, weaken you to negative attack and then have you killed by any bypasser... and then say that the community decided to get rid of you XD

[ok, i might have exaggerated with Akashas powers as i haven't ever seen her in REAL action, but you get the general point, i guess^^]

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She can do such things, and she is not the only one. But she must do that, if she wishes to effect such a change... and she will not have changed our wills one iota.

This is what we have willed. This is what we have built. Criticise us, kill us, imprison us, ban us, do what you will: it is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, and I have no intention of living on my knees, in this world or any other.

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common saying of those who live on their feet... ;-)

the rest of the bunch is being tough and all, but in the end they bow to survive... like you bowed to all the lorerootians said to get your guild started... but that's a discussion for a different time and place, i hope we meet some time at GoE again =)

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[quote name='Tarquinus' post='31949' date='May 22 2009, 05:53 AM']Yes, and yes.

Incorrect. Those unaffiliated with alliances may vote, provided they express their intent to vote to one of the Censors (Gremlin or Mya Celestia).

Those of other [b]homelands[/b] are asked to refrain from voting.

That such a thing could be assured seems unlikely. It seems possible someone could get an invitation into the alliances during an election period; there is no express prohibition against such a thing.[/quote]

That is a bit clarifying, thank you, but I have a couple of questions that continue on this.
On what grounds do Gremlin or Mya Celestia decide who is allowed to vote? What are the criteria?
And you say there is no express prohibition against such a thing, but I read a pm somewhere in this topic where it is said that it is very unlikely for someone to get recruited during election time.
Is it unlikely, but still possible? For a random person that is, not a good friend who stepped out to gain honor or lose xp or the like, and now wishes to, obviously, return.

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If I understand correctly, most (if not all) of the people who were allowed to vote are the old members of the Loreroot alliance before the conflict began. Even if people there were new recruits during the time of the voting, I doubt that it would have resulted in an instant voting right. Although, people who would have been accepted into the alliance would have been those who were observed being a Lorerootian (in the sense that they consider it their homeland). I believe this track record of being a Lorerootian was enough a criteria to vote, so alliance recruitment would not have been of any effect to the said person's ability to vote. To sum up, it appears to me that there is nothing such as preventing people from joining the alliance so they cannot vote, as alliance recruitment would have had nothing to do with voting rights. I think the decision not to recruit new people at the time was simply that it was not the right time as there was a crisis that needed to be sorted out first.

I guess I should also mention about all this private forum thingy.. That private forum is pretty new, and its purpose is as a place to discuss private alliance matters, thus it was not open to public, and even its existence was not stated everywhere. However, Loreroot does have a public forum open to all, which had already been linked here: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=1826"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=1826[/url]. Link to said forum can also been found in the official announcements dated 2008-10-08.

Those wishing to ask anything can either post it here (though it appears that none of any alliance's forums here are being used by people who want to ask anything about said alliances. I personally wouldn't consider it as something that is happening to Loreroot alone.), or they can post it in the forum that has been linked in the post on above link. Well, with the new developments though, just post in in this official forum so we can see more activity in overall usage of all alliance forums.

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Well, I am just saying this from my knowledge. I have, after all, retired from all political matters, thus please excuse me if I am wrong. If you are referring to the council member votings back then, I think you can vote as soon as as gremlin/mya has received your gesture of interest in voting and approved it. I do not know the criteria whatsoever, but I suppose it would be something along the line of showing making Loreroot your homeland for a noticeable timeframe in the past.

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' post='32006' date='May 22 2009, 11:17 AM']That's not the point.
I am asking if I were to say that loreroot was my homeland, when would I be allowed to vote by Mya celestia or Gremlin?[/quote]

We don't necessarily give permission to vote. Questions are asked to discover their loyalty and interest in Loreroot. It is also based on how often they are seen in Loreroot.

In reality, no one asked.

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' post='32006' date='May 22 2009, 11:17 AM']That's not the point.
I am asking if I were to say that loreroot was my homeland, when would I be allowed to vote by Mya celestia or Gremlin?[/quote]
If Loreroot were your homeland, your vote would be accepted, period.

As Mya indicates, the purpose of the Censors, who are volunteers, is not to assign voting rights but to determine the size and composition of the electorate.

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Let me conclude what I think this is all about, for now.
Please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

The HC, A non-public venture, was made with the intention of governing territory.
However, that territory is impossible to be laid claim upon by the HC, for now, because it was not instated by Mur(like K or Yrth/Grido), nor [i]did it have[/i] any known public mandate. That is, people unaffiliated with your alliance, but affiliated with the land.
That is because all your constituents were in the alliance itself.
So while the HC may have been democratically chosen and it represents its own party and people, it does not encompass every potential inhabitant.
It's like a 1-partei system, really.
Besides that, the HC has, in my eyes, garnered a great amount of suspicion, by [i]not publicly advertising[/i] that you had the intention of getting votes for the election.

I am not saying you are hiding something, I am saying that normal elections campaign for a reason.

It [i]looks[/i] like the HC was, perhaps not actively, nor even with deliberate thought on everyone, trying to keep the election amongst friends and people who would almost assuredly vote for the ones with equal setting of mind.
Trying to keep constituents away (while I am not accusing you of this, nor implying you did this on purpose) does not create a democracy.

One major mistake the HC did however, was that the HC did not just let potential lorerootians, who were not in the alliances, know there was an election going on, that could decide the fate of the land itself, thereby creating a false mandate for themselves. No, the HC made a bigger mistake. The HC did not let the entire realm know that there was an election going on.

Imagine if you will, you live in any nation, doesn't matter where.
Then all of a sudden, a team of researchers on Antartica, declares that they have democratically chosen to rule Antartica. I, at home, watching the news, will think that that must be the biggest load of cr*p I have ever heard off.
I would think that, since I never heard about that before, they must be crazies. They didn't let the world know of their intention. They did not garner support from other nations. They, in my eyes, are not backed by [i][b]independent organizations[/b][/i] who can assure fair elections. They are not backed by friendly nations, because the territory, Antartica, is not seen as an independent nation. Nor do the scientists, because of the disputed election itself, have any plausible mandate of any people, besides themselves to even claim the land as their own.
It is public territory. Besides that, I would think, I would love to get my hands on the narcotics the researchers must have found in Antartica. Would be one hell of a trip, no?

Now, you may argue that this may go for the nations we live in right now.
That is wrong. Nations such as America, or European nations, have democratic elections, all fair with a fair and sizeable amount of unique and distinguishable voters. The people's rights, come from the Constitution. Every democracy has one, where is yours?

Now you may argue it is totally different for Necrovion and GG, compared to the real world, and that in fact you, as lorerootians, hold a completely different case as well.
Sadly enough, I (though this is quite debateable, I agree) disagree with this again.
In the past, people who cut off the most heads and were able to unite tribes, could create a tiny nation.
As these nations grew, leaders would lay their mandate on the grounds of royalty and divinity.

This is the case for GG and Necro. Royalty for Peace. Divinity for GG and Khalazdad.

By not letting the entire realm know there were elections, you made yourselves look very, very unprofessional. And unbelievable as well.

I got some things you might want to use to try and improve things though.
1: And this is what you have been doing, although not quite good enough IMHO, let the realm know what you are doing.
And don't give me any excuses of 'this forum was open for public', no. That is not good enough. You have to, purposefully and publicly, here on this forum, or in the realm itself, let the people, all of them, know of your intentions.
2: Get the Archies to count your votes.
3: Let your claim upon the territory be backed by either the people, or divinity, best would be both. In this case Mur actually says that the HC, not the people in them, but the HC, holds a claim to rule loreroot, like Peace does for Necro.
Besides that, the people have to be, publicly, be of the opinion that the HC does indeed, deserve that role.

My opinion. Flame me, blablabla me, whatever, you get the point no?

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To clear some misunderstanding, the high council of loreroot wasn't and isn't, claiming or have the intention to govern a territory. The HC is the leader of the Guardians of the Root alliance, and the alliance is not Loreroot. So in terms of metaphor, it's not a team of researchers claiming to own antartica, instead a team of researchers voting on who will head the research team.

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indeed you are wrong on that MB...

they have no powers over the land Loreroot, so they can't rule the land Loreroot, only the allies of Loreroot...

however, they [u]search[/u] to govern all of Loreroot [unlike NS, and GG, who are only defending the land from 'intruders' and trying to be a banner for those of a likewise mind to gather under], including watching over all those who claim themselves lorerootians and ruling 'civilians' (unallied people) of Loreroot, and therefore need a better legitimation than yrth and K, or any other ally-leader for that matter, who are only ruling those who let themselves be ruled by them (the allies members, who can choose to drop out of the ally at any time and go on with their role, which can be connected to whatever land they like)

anyways, long story short, you are NOT a researchers team on antarctica electing the head, you are rather a team of airport-security electing their head and claiming that only those who have the official securityl seal of approval will get a chance of visiting the airport, let alone getting on a plane... you are not doing what you are supposed to do [fetching terrorists out of the crowd and chucking them out], but want everybody to stay away except for those who are known non-terrorists, and this system can only lead to loreroot becoming a community in itself, independant from the game community and therefore not a part of the game anymore, which is what Akasha [and a good load of other people] fear to happen in near future...

so, your HC needs to be elected by everybody who might want to get into the airport, and not only by the security-guys, becasue their extremist point of view can't lead to the results the whole community desires

*feel free to correct me where i am wrong, but that's exactly what i read out of your posts so far, not only in this topic, but from everything that was said since the rise of almost-king Raven*

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Oh sorry, apologies, I thought the HC wanted to rule all of Loreroot.
If they don't, then I don't really see a lot of problems here, except that the HC should put the documents about her creation, in public en plain, and.. IMO it's good for now.

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This is what is confusing everyone. I too thought that they wanted to rule Loreroot due to the lack of documents avaliable for me to learn about them.

Perhaps provide some more things (as the bunny said) about your goals and aims so that people may make informed opinions.

If you are not going to rule it what are you for? I have no idea really. Care to inform me?

Average casual players view

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Well, until there's a complete post about it, I'll provide some basic info here.

The High Council has existed since Nelya's age, with Nelya and knatty being the first Council members. It is the leadership form of the Guardians of the Root alliance. While GG was led by wodin, the NS by Khal, archies by Ren, and the Seekers by chewett, the GotR were led by Nelya and KC. As time passes, the members of the HC grew with Blackthorn, Raven, Calyx of Isis, Tarquinus, Savelfuser, me, and Grayhawk. That was the first HC.

When Nelya and many others left, the HC membership were revamped to add Sagewoman, Firsanthalas, Aqune and... I don't remember anymore. It's not important actually, as this one has already been dissolved anyways.

With all the troubles happening, the members of the alliance chose to re-organize the alliance with a new HC. Part of that re-organizing is these votes you have seen being posted here.

What is the high council's purpose?
The high council is the governing body of the Guardians of the Root alliance. Just like the NS is ruled by the Khalazdad Dynasty, the GG is ruled by yrthilian, the GoTR is ruled by the HC. And that's what its purpose is. To lead the alliance. Not claim rulership over the land or anything. Oh yeah, in case anyone is mixing this up, please remember that the one who wanted to claim leadership over the land of Loreroot is Raven, NOT the High Council , which has existed for ages and could've tried to do so from long ago, but did not do it as it is not its purpose. ( the HC wasn't even mentioned in the announcement for raven's archonhood, still, I get the impression that people are mixing these things up).

What is the GoTR Alliance's purpose?
Since Burns mentioned this, I guess I should also clarify. The Guardians of the Root alliance's ORIGINAL purpose is to protect the land of Loreroot ([b]Guardians [/b] of the Root, anyone?) from the impending shades war. As the war has ended, the alliance's purpose has also expanded into trying to develop Loreroot, learning its history, secrets, and places, etc. So, if you say the alliance (or the HC, the alliance's governing body) is trying to take control of Loreroot and all its citizens blah3, it's a wrong assumption. If anyone reads the statement on [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=1826"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=1826[/url], you can see that it was never the alliance's purpose.

Some [u]personal[/u] comments:
-[spoiler](ranting mode: if GG is "only defending the land from 'intruders' and trying to be a banner for those of a likewise mind to gather under", what the hell was it doing attacking Loreroot? Did loreroot ever 'intrude' GG? :nea: ) [/spoiler] PS: don't take it personally guys, I'm just pointing out something that's been in my mind for a while.

-Yeah, there is no specific documentation for the HC in the forums. So I guess it was kinda wrong. But frankly, I've been around for months, since there aren't even any alliance section in the forums, and I've never seen the alliance section used much. Before all the hype because loreroot didn't post its HC on the forums, there's practically no activity there. Why burn only Loreroot? Because trees are easy to burn? O_o
I'm no longer involving myself in politics, but I applaud that the current HC is willing to post all this details about the election here. How many other alliances give out the details on how they choose their own ranks? Just for example (I don't mean this as an attack, frankly I agree that it is not necessary to tell outsiders how the ranks of an alliance is chosen), if MRD chooses who his second in command is, does he need to post why/how he chose him? I think it's totally unnecessary and it's the MRs private business that no one else needs to know.
But hey, the public somehow demands it and the current HC agreed to post it here, so I applaud them for that.
And yeah, about the info on Loreroot leadership (HC) not being posted much. It's pretty much the same. As another example, I don't know for sure who is leading the Seekers. I thought it was aql, sometimes I thought it is liberty, and then I heard chewett is still co-leading it. I didn't know pample was the leader of the archivist until a few months after she became the leader. My point is, we, the MD players who are involved in one way or another with alliances, never bothered to re-update who leads an alliance on the forums. And honestly, we can just ask in-game or if necessary, post it here on the alliance forums if we need to know. But no one bothered to ask! I still don't understand why Loreroot's an exception.

Anyways, I'm deeply sorry if I offend anyone with the rants. I am just sharing what it looks like from my perspective. I don't need any quarrel. If you think I'm wrong, then give me an argument to make me change my mind, not flame me. Arguing and flaming is two different things.

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