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Agreed. Even the part about where the clues are should be deleted.. Would hate to be casually reading and find that out as a newbie who had no idea before. No more sense of accomplishment.

And the moderators are slow in deleting spoilers...

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[quote name='maggot' post='18919' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:35 PM']And the moderators are slow in deleting spoilers...[/quote]

I suggest you start making use of the report post button a bit more then!? We do try our best, but have you seen how long some of the post are??? Also I think were all on the same time zone

But anyway, spoilers are going now

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[quote name='Frosty' post='18922' date='Oct 26 2008, 09:42 PM']I suggest you start making use of the report post button a bit more then!? We do try our best, but have you seen how long some of the post are??? Also I think were all on the same time zone[/quote]

Maybe but when I see that the topic is a week old and the spoilers are still there I assume the mods have already read the topic and judged the content.. it is not like I log on everyday and read all the topics you are supposed to moderate so I can report them for you. And these posts aren't very long. But yes, maybe the other users should report posts "a bit more then!?"

[quote name='dst' post='18923' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:06 PM']I prefer to let the users edit their own posts.[/quote]

But you don't tell them they should edit. Besides, like Frosty said, the spoilers were numerous and large. Why tell them to edit when you can edit yourself? Too lazy? Poor newbie who happens upon the spoilers in the while it takes for the users to edit themselves.

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You know what? I quit. Happy? I will talk with one of the admins to make me a regular user. Maybe this way I will have some peace and quit.It seems that everything I do or don't do it's bad. Maybe you should be a mod. You seem to be better. I admit: I have other things to do and a different way of doing things.

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Don't care whether or not you are mod... that is your decision. I criticize when I see something might want improvement, but if you would rather get your peace and quiet instead rather than doing that improvement, that is fine.

And no, I should not be a mod because I do not want to be one. Just like, it seems, you.

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Okay :) this thread seams to have reached a climax

Im going to close this before it gets anything else happens. dst please reconsider, perhaps we make up a set standard for moding? that way no once can complain.

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Ok well, some rather drastic things have happend as shown above. So if you have any complaints about the way we moderate, post them here and they will help draw up a unified moderation system

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Like I said to Frosty when complaining about how the other thread was locked (in response to which he split some posts off into this one), moderating regulations would be good--but it is stupid to have "no more complaints" as the reason for it. It should be instead to do the best in moderation possible. Complaints are askance for improvement, since moderators are figures of responsibility they should welcome feedback as to how they can help the forums. Regulations would hopefully ensure better quality and accountability of moderators.. but I will still complain if no one does a good job keeping to the regulations or the regulations are not very good anyway.

As for "drastic" events, nothing really has happened in my eyes. It seems like dst is stressed or something and because I complained about how spoilers weren't deleted his limit was crossed and he wants out of the stress. Or he said so anyway, maybe he will change his mind. What is special? Don't make it into drama. I am rather happy that this somehow lead to regulations.

And suggestions:
[list][list=1]
[*]Unallowed spoiler should be clearly defined and put in a list of forum rules, wherever those are, so supposedly everyone knows what they can and cannot say and what they should report. Moderators should accordingly delete/edit out spoilers upon sight or report, but also notify the author of post and put in the post itself (if it wasn't deleted completely) the reason why words were deleted.
[*]Allowed spoiler should be clearly defined and put in the same list, so supposedly everyone knows what they can and cannot put in plain sight and when they should report to a moderator so it can be put in spoiler tags if the author did not himself. Moderators should accordingly put in spoiler tags those spoilers upon sight or report, but also put in the post itself the reason why the words were hidden.
[*]Those who post unallowed spoiler or allowed spoiler in plain sight should be given a verbal warning on first offense, as they did not read/obey the forum rules. They should be given an actual warning on second offense and ban on third.
[*]What constitutes as "offtopic" should be clearly defined and put in the list. Those who are offtopic should be given a verbal warning on first two offenses, actual warning on third and fourth and ban on fifth. Moderator action concerning offtopic posts (splitting or deleting) should be clearly regulated somewhere, probably with the part about closing threads.
[*]Offenses that will get warnings or harsher punishment like IP ban should be clearly delineated in a list and must include how to enforce regulations concerning those offenses. I have no idea as to what they are currently, except sometimes cussing has received warnings.
[*]The reasons a thread might be closed must be clearly delineated in a list, and moderators must always post a reason why they close a thread when doing so, unless it is an emergency or an exception outlined in the list, i.e. spam that is put in trash can and made invisible to regular users. Author must always, without exception, be notified of the reason (and they have the right to petition).
[*]Regular users should recognize the discretion of moderators in interpreting regulation as authority and should behave accordingly, but they have the right to a.) petition against the rules b.) petition against the moderator. A vote should then occur; majority wins. If the rules/moderator loses, then the rule must be changed/deleted or the moderator must change his interpretation and corresponding enforcement unless he wants to quit moderating.
[*]Moderators have the right to add rules as needed without confirmation but those rules should be announced and subject to right of petition. Moderators cannot delete rules without majority user approval in a poll.
[/list]
[/list]

Those are mine. Feel free to debate, discuss or add. I know they seem rather complex and involve a lot of work to "clearly delineate" and organize when things like petitions will probably never happen unless a rule or mod really pisses someone off, but they would make someone who's paranoid about authority liberty like me very happy.

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i'd suggest there are two ways of doing something: fast and bureaucratic.
if there's a spoiler that needs to be deleted, an offence angainst anyone that has to be edited or a topic that's going somewhat off-topicand needs to be closed, there shouldn't be any complex rules about it, there are enough people who would read and duplicate those things before the mods come around to clse them, but even more if the mods would first have to read through a huge book of rules whether they are allowed to close/edit/delete under exactly those circumstances or not.
BUT everybody can always send a pm to the mod who changed your post and ask him/her for reasons, or ask him/her to undo his/her actions, absolutely no problem there. mods will most likely answer within half an hour, and they (almost) never get angry about such pms^^
of course the idea of having a book of rules for the mods is a nice idea, but i think in "cases of emergency", those rules should provide exceptions so the mods can act rather than start reading those books.

And, to the rules, i suggest changing the rules according bans from 3 for spoiling and 5 for offtopic to 5 for spoiling and none for offtopic, this forum ahs a veery long life, and it's pretty hard never to tell spoilers because some of us take things for granted that others have no idea about, and some hints can be taken as spoilers by the mods and then, nobody would give any hints anymore =D
same for offtopic, bans are a too heavy threat, that would be like putting death penalty on someone for stealing a news paper, it seems just unfair :blink:

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Just for some extra info, here are the punishments that are available to mods:

Every player has a warn level, if they do something wrong it can be increased by 20%, so effectively 5 strikes. We have the option to force the players posts to be moderated before being posted for X amount of days or indefinitely, and then ban the player for X amount of days or indefinitely

(the warn level can also be decreased by 20%)

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[quote name='Burns' post='18944' date='Oct 27 2008, 07:30 AM']i'd suggest there are two ways of doing something: fast and bureaucratic.
if there's a spoiler that needs to be deleted, an offence angainst anyone that has to be edited or a topic that's going somewhat off-topicand needs to be closed, there shouldn't be any complex rules about it, there are enough people who would read and duplicate those things before the mods come around to clse them, but even more if the mods would first have to read through a huge book of rules whether they are allowed to close/edit/delete under exactly those circumstances or not.
BUT everybody can always send a pm to the mod who changed your post and ask him/her for reasons, or ask him/her to undo his/her actions, absolutely no problem there. mods will most likely answer within half an hour, and they (almost) never get angry about such pms^^
of course the idea of having a book of rules for the mods is a nice idea, but i think in "cases of emergency", those rules should provide exceptions so the mods can act rather than start reading those books.

And, to the rules, i suggest changing the rules according bans from 3 for spoiling and 5 for offtopic to 5 for spoiling and none for offtopic, this forum ahs a veery long life, and it's pretty hard never to tell spoilers because some of us take things for granted that others have no idea about, and some hints can be taken as spoilers by the mods and then, nobody would give any hints anymore =D
same for offtopic, bans are a too heavy threat, that would be like putting death penalty on someone for stealing a news paper, it seems just unfair :blink:[/quote]

Disagree.. in my suggestions I said moderators would have liberty of interpreting those rules as they wish, so they actually would have a lot of freedom in deciding what is a spoiler/spam/etc. unless they are challenged by someone on that interpretation, which likely will not happen unless it is something that is really out of bounds. Guess they wouldn't have so much freedom in deciding what action to take, but it is just logical to have some regulations to ensure consistent moderation, don't think they have to be SO complex that the mods would have to read a "huge book" instead of having them memorized.

It looks like a long list I made but actually most of it is about making sure moderators notify users about forum rules (because really there aren't any ones that are official right now) and whenever they take action concerning their posts/topics, also the right of users to challenge moderators, as if that would ever happen. Otherwise it is like moderators have no credibility when they warn/punish a user for doing something but nowhere in the forums does it say it is prohibited. That is too much freedom and it might someday annoy people. And contrary to your beliefs I think it will help the efficiecy of moderators. Sometimes it is hard to tell what to do without any guidelines, unless you are opinionated and just go by your own judgment. That annoys me at least, like when the spoilers in the other thread were not deleted for a week.

Agree that people can just pm mods whenever they have a question about moderator action, but there should be rules so that mods notify them that something actually happened; and also what about when the user and moderator disagree? The rules should help with that so it isn't so much of an argument about people's opinions but rather a discussion about the rules and different interpretations.

Maybe the punishments in the suggestions are harsh and should be changed yes, but my main point is that there should be regulations concerning punishment for different offenses so it is not like for different users get different punishment for the same offense.

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i have the stange feeling you missunderstood me =D
i like all those values of equality and freedom of speech and i'm absolutely on your side about rules that need to be laid down to make sure that all mods act in "the same general way", not meaning that i want a faceless system, but neither do i wish to have a system in which different judges put totally different judgements on me like one of them telling me off and the other banning me for a week, to have both extremes here^^

i just wanted to make sure that the people reading your post don't jump from their seats and start typing that they want those rules at once, because even such a little bunch of 8 rules needs a whole lot of work to get implemented and exceptions here and there, and i'm pretty sure that those exceptions need a rather huge dicussion because we have very different positions here, on the one side you wanting to make sure that the mods have little to none rights except for those laid down in the rules, the mods who want you to see that they already act according to rules they made up but don't want to share so nobody comes around and tries to exploit the exceptions, and a large bunch of other positions everywhere between "give me mods rights because i can do it better :) " and "never mind mods, the forum works better without them!" :blink:

my whole post was not so much about destroying your idea, which is obviously great, it as more about showing the ignorants out there who rarely read the forums that your point just enlights one side of a greater issue.
i hope you forgive me if it sounds like i don't like and/or don't understand your idea, because i really think it has a valid point and needs to be taken into consideration =D

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Actually I don't really understand your point, not in the way where I mean it is idiotic and meaningless, but as in I do not understand what you are trying to communicate... maybe the language barrier is finally getting to me. I am guessing you meant that while my rules seemed nice, you have to keep in mind that we cannot make rules too complex or else it will affect the efficiency of moderator action, though. Am I right? Or are you trying to say something else? If you mean something else maybe you could communicate it better by suggesting alteration/addition to the rules...I don't know if I could follow explanation alone, for some reason I always log onto these forums really late into the night.

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comments on maggot's suggestion rules:
1) agreed, i have a bit of problem what is spoiler and what is not, this is first time in my moderation career that i have to handle with spoilers, i was always rule giver/spam destroyer/warning&ban giver
2)well if we post which spoiler are allowed and which arent to public then we would give out spoilers by ourselfs, right?
3)too rude for this kind of forum, so i disagree
4)everyone should know what is offtopic, well if you arent talking about thing that topic subject tells you this topic is about, and this forum isnt so strict, that means users can get a bit offtopic, but there are limits ofc
5)agreed
6)agreed
7)no petition, at least not against moderators, if you dont like how moderator does his job you fire complain to his superior
8)disagreed, i say admins have right to write rules and moderator should write rules only if he/she get permission from admin, i asked for that permission few weeks ago, and i got it, the thing is i didnt wrote bigger and better rules because this forum isnt so strict as i mentioned already, this forum is just like any normal forum lots of things are allowed, its just that thing with this spoiler in which i am not so experienced, but as forum will grow there will be need of new better rules

and btw i didnt saw new player complaining about spoilers, only old ones, i wonder why is that ?

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obviously, my english doesn't allow me to say what i want to say xD
i don't want to say that complex rules are bad and would make the mods unefficient, that's no problem as long as there are exceptions for emergency causes, it's much like a law system, you are not allowed to hurt the rules, but there are exceptions, like when you seeing someone threatening another person with a gun, you are absolutely allowed to break his arm to make sure the other person gets saved.

I wanted to say that all the rules you have written above need some exceptions and that it will take a looong time before they are ready to be implemented in the forum, and in that discussion period, some new minorities will come up and want to be noticed, and if every single position wants a rule that suits them best, we will be in troubles setting any rules at all.
So, we have either the way to set some rules in a monocratic fashion (meaning one person setting them and the others obeying) or in a democratic process (which is perferable, but will take longer and need loads more rules).
Now you can choose what is better: monocratic rules or democratic laws, and take in consideration,
1.)if you say monocratic now, we need to find out who suits the position of leader best, and even if i like all your ideas so far, i'd still vote for chewett, and as most others would do so too because he's doing a great job, not much would change, and
2.)if you say democratic, there will be the need of setting up numberous threads and discussing all the rules with everyone, and we will grow tired of bringing up the same points over and over again, and in the long run, the whole idea could be dropped because of frustration.

And i just thought that this points need to be clear for all the people reading this thread, because anyone can say "yep, that's good" or "no, maggot's rules are crap", but most of them won't stop to think and consider what each of your rules means and how they might need to be changed before they can really be laid down as rules.

i hope i managed to write my arguments in a way that can be understood even if you don't speak english as native tongue =D

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[quote name='Liberty4life' post='18991' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:27 AM']comments on maggot's suggestion rules:
1) agreed, i have a bit of problem what is spoiler and what is not, this is first time in my moderation career that i have to handle with spoilers, i was always rule giver/spam destroyer/warning&ban giver
2)well if we post which spoiler are allowed and which arent to public then we would give out spoilers by ourselfs, right?
3)too rude for this kind of forum, so i disagree
4)everyone should know what is offtopic, well if you arent talking about thing that topic subject tells you this topic is about, and this forum isnt so strict, that means users can get a bit offtopic, but there are limits ofc
5)agreed
6)agreed
7)no petition, at least not against moderators, if you dont like how moderator does his job you fire complain to his superior
8 )disagreed, i say admins have right to write rules and moderator should write rules only if he/she get permission from admin, i asked for that permission few weeks ago, and i got it, the thing is i didnt wrote bigger and better rules because this forum isnt so strict as i mentioned already, this forum is just like any normal forum lots of things are allowed, its just that thing with this spoiler in which i am not so experienced, but as forum will grow there will be need of new better rules

and btw i didnt saw new player complaining about spoilers, only old ones, i wonder why is that ?[/quote]

2) by clearly defined, don't mean specifically.. but there should be some sort standard to go by.
3) and 4) those are just my preferences in terms of strictness; my main concern is that there are set rules and these set rules are made known to everyone
7) can see that, but think public discussion about moderator action should be allowed if the superior disagrees with you.. there should be more responsibility on the mods than just to please the superior; they serve the whole forum
8 ) then apply that rule to administrators instead of moderators; they should announce rule creation and deletion

So you can see I am not sticking to my original stickiness, but I still want accountability.

As for new players complaing about spoilers.. yes, actually a lot of them may like spoilers, and it is only the old players who had to work to learn those things do not like it. But I know for myself that if I were a newbie and found those spoilers, I would be disappointed.. spoilers take out the fun for those who like discovery and accomplishment, and those who just want to get as far ahead as possible with minimum work like spoilers. Does that change anything? Don't think so.

Burns: understand you now. And I think you are partially right, not many will care much about these things to keep a democratic system working. But I still think there should be rules that make moderation more consistent and smoother--and users should have the right to contest moderator decisions if they want.

Chewett: it is not hard to believe your moderators are dedicated and only mean good, but that does not mean they do not need rules governing their action. For instance, concerning spoilers, why let them each interpret in their own way? Why not have them instead come to a consensus as to what a spoiler is, when they should be deleted, etc. so that people do not face unequal treatment? This way eliminates potential conflict.

It is good to hear forum rules are going to be made up. Am mostly concerned with users not knowing how moderators will act and having to predict for themselves what is allowed and what is not. Right now it feels like the moderators are given too much liberty to judge for themselves and this will lead to conflict sometime because of obvious inconsistency.. Don't really want to make the rules myself, but when they come out, I will take a look at them and maybe give some suggestions.

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