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There's this knight who was asked by his beloved to bring her a proof of his love that he so ardently confessed - his mother's heart. What would be his choice?

We're going to try to solve this dilemma in an experimental quest in which the knight goes through a number of rooms until he can reach the quarters of his mother. At any point, the dilemma can be solved, except for the final room. All participants (not attendees) will get an anniv creature as prize if the knight finds his answer or a consolation prize of 1 g if it is not answered. To make it clear, he must find the correct answer that nullifies any possible doubts to its veracity. That is, the dilemma is no more.

Each room shall contain a special object to help stir thoughts, as well as a large mirror (played by me) which will reflect some thoughts back. The participants will throw their take on it, one by one, representing the endless thoughts of the knight faced with such trouble.

This is similar to a play discussing morals and morality, only you are the actors in an impromptu play; we should get to the bottom of those sticky morality rules here...

My greatest concern is when we can find a time to all be there, so I was thinking about this Friday evening. Other times that seem to be fine with you (folks that are interested)?

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Today, in the evening, after or before Fyrd's (we'll see), we're doing this little play. I've attached the so-called map we shall be using, but the details of each room will be disclosed at the time of the event. I'll meet you there!

whatislove.jpg

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Chewett is setting up a movement link to the MDA each day -- the viscosity is thick up this way.  If you want people much before my bit, you need to touch base with him about timing of it, and tell folks.  My bit can and will run for a specific amount of time then be stopped, so we should end that promptly at 2200.

Edited by Fyrd Argentus
Elaboration.
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9 hours ago, Fyrd Argentus said:

Chewett is setting up a movement link to the MDA each day -- the viscosity is thick up this way.  If you want people much before my bit, you need to touch base with him about timing of it, and tell folks.  My bit can and will run for a specific amount of time then be stopped, so we should end that promptly at 2200.

no worries, if i waited yesterday to run my game (and it was worth it) for the max amount of participants, i will do it today too

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First I want to really thank Ungod for hosting this game, it was really interesting and let to some great discussion afterwards.

It turns out we, sadly, weren't quite able to convince the knight to change his way. While the game had a lot of interesting moments, it's over 1000 lines long, so I'll spare you the details. Instead I'll focus on the post discussion for the summary. We went over quite a few topics, so if I misrepresented something/missed something important, let me know.

 

Participants:

Spoiler

Host: Ungod

Participants:
Dracoloth
Nepgear
Demonic God
MaGoHi
Kaya

Reinforcements in the final room from:
*Miq*
Bash Chelik

 

Ungod's answer:

Quote

The dilemma of choosing between love for the mother and love for the lover disappears when you realize the object of your love is neither, but yourself, because love is created in your mind. That is because the object of your love doesnt possess qualities to be loved, but qualities to appreaciate, Everyone can appreaciate another, but to love one, your mind must exaecrbate the qualities of one to a higher state of feeling. In this way, what we're in love with is a product of our own mind.

In this dilemma, the question becomes not 'should i kill mom to get the girl', but 'how much of the reality around me will i sacrifice to make this illusion called love, a product of my mind, more "Real". Which is a question of quantity, not a choice between two opposite things.

Summary of the response:
On dilemma's:
Turning the question into a question of quantity would only make the dilemma disappear in the strictest sense (there are no longer just 2 possible answers), but wouldn't solve it, as the question whether or not he should kill his mother still remains.

On the definition of love:
It was quite clear that the knight was following I quite radical form of love, most often found in tragedies like Romeo and Juliette. The question whether or not this constitutes real love or was something closer to lust/a selfish obsession. From the post discussion it turned out Ungod did want to use this romanticized definition of love. Which we argued is quite narrow, and primarily used in tragedies... Which usually end in tragedy.

On the reality of the mind:
The final main point of difference is the question whether constructions of the mind are real. We mostly agreed that love is largely a product of the mind (with some biology). We couldn't quite agree that this made love any less real, and as a result that this would be a particularly convincing argument.

 

Full post discussion (If you want the 1300 line long full log let me know... It's long, though.):

Spoiler

[17/04/21 01:22] Ungod:It\'s a bit long, and i was lf a better one, but i didnt get it today. PLease bear with me.
[17/04/21 01:22] Ungod:.
[17/04/21 01:22] Ungod:.
[17/04/21 01:22] Ungod:.
[17/04/21 01:23] Ungod:The dilemma of choosing between love for the mother and love for the lover disappears when you realize the object of your love is neither, but yourself, because love is created in your mind.
[17/04/21 01:23] Demonic God: (oi...)
[17/04/21 01:24] Bash Chelik:That is not how it goes
[17/04/21 01:24] Ungod:That is because the object of your love doesnt possess qualities to be loved, but qualities to appreaciate,
[17/04/21 01:24] Ungod: (i sad bear with me)
[17/04/21 01:24] Demonic God: (ok xD)
[17/04/21 01:24] Ungod:Everyone can appreaciate another, but to love one, your mind must exaecrbate the qualities of one to a higher state of feeling. In this way, what we\'re in love with is a product of our own mind.
[17/04/21 01:25] Ungod:In this dilemma, the question becomes not \'should i kill mom to get the girl\', but \'how much of the reality around me will i sacrifice to make this illusion called love, a product of my mind, more
[17/04/21 01:25] Ungod:\'\'real\'\'?
[17/04/21 01:26] Ungod:Which is a question of quantity, not a choice between two opposite things.
[17/04/21 01:26] :Ungod thats kinda it
[17/04/21 01:26] *Miq*:So we agree here the request was beoynd scope and the cause give up for that monent atleast
[17/04/21 01:26] Dracoloth: (I\'m not sure telling an obsessed person that would change their mind)
[17/04/21 01:27] MaGoHi: (yeah, agree with draco here)
[17/04/21 01:27] Ungod: (you say \'you dont love her, you love yourself)
[17/04/21 01:27] Ungod: (you0\'re killing people for your own illusion. that should wake someone up)
[17/04/21 01:27] MaGoHi: (more like you dont love her but the idolized version of her that you created in your mind)
[17/04/21 01:27] *Miq*: (that will not convince a obsessed person)
[17/04/21 01:27] Kaya Salta: (That\'s kinda what we were going for)
[17/04/21 01:27] Dracoloth: (Yeah that wouldnt work)
[17/04/21 01:27] Demonic God: (I tried hard to make it about quantity :/)
[17/04/21 01:28] Bash Chelik:You overestimate the mind in all this. Love is thing of the heart. To feel is to understand. To feel is to know. And if you know then you dont ask
[17/04/21 01:28] Dracoloth: (and we did kind of say that)
[17/04/21 01:28] Ungod: (the purpose of the quest was to solve the dilemma, how effective this is in irl, well, it depends)
[17/04/21 01:28] Nepgear:IF they are willing to accept that love is an illusion. Which is very unlikely.
[17/04/21 01:28] Demonic God: (hence why I said I\'m not sure if not killing is the answer)
[17/04/21 01:28] *Miq*: (but the answer in different forms i think was given )
[17/04/21 01:28] Ungod:in any case, the dilemma is solved by such a reasoning,dont you agree?
[17/04/21 01:28] *Miq*: (refuse her)
[17/04/21 01:28] Demonic God: (and why I wanted to go on with the twisting values approach)
[17/04/21 01:28] Ungod:yes, it wasnt fleshed out, miq. i was lf for a more complete answer
[17/04/21 01:29] MaGoHi:i dont think that solves the dilemma at all
[17/04/21 01:29] Dracoloth:I honestly think it\'s more solved by many of the things we said
[17/04/21 01:29] Ungod:if i start exaplining like i do, i doubt a young person would get it
[17/04/21 01:29] Demonic God: (hence the self-value approach)
[17/04/21 01:29] Kaya Salta:It rephrases the dilemma
[17/04/21 01:29] Kaya Salta:But it\'s still there
[17/04/21 01:29] Ungod:nepgear said \'you\'re willing to pout your feelings above all else\'
[17/04/21 01:29] MaGoHi:how old are you ungod
[17/04/21 01:29] Dracoloth:agree with kaya on that
[17/04/21 01:29] Ungod:which is what i\'ve been saying, but it needed more definition
[17/04/21 01:29] Kaya Salta:As you said, how much are you willing to sacrifice for this illusion called love
[17/04/21 01:29] MaGoHi:and how young is the person?
[17/04/21 01:29] Ungod:it doesn\'t rephrase the dilemma
[17/04/21 01:30] Demonic God: (convince that the loss of his mother is more severe than what he could hope to gain - kinda hard given how you wouldn\'t allow us to twist xD)
[17/04/21 01:30] Ungod: (it\'s not like that mago, it\'s about me telling the kid that i dont love his mom, and i just think we\'re all doing our job here)
[17/04/21 01:31] Ungod: (and that its perfectly fine to be so, were in this together mostly by accident, not love)
[17/04/21 01:31] Ungod:what is a dilemma?
[17/04/21 01:31] MaGoHi: (that seems like a completely different issue to boot)
[17/04/21 01:31] Ungod:it\'s ehn you have two opposite ways, and you have to choose
[17/04/21 01:31] Bash Chelik:Dillema is lack of resolve
[17/04/21 01:31] Ungod: (no, its not. it\'s about saying love has no place in my life, since i want a loveless but good life)
[17/04/21 01:31] Kaya Salta: (Does he though)
[17/04/21 01:32] Dracoloth:A dilemma can have more than 2 solutions
[17/04/21 01:32] Bash Chelik:There is no loveless but good
[17/04/21 01:32] Ungod:when you\'re saying \'how much am i gonna sacrifice for my illusion, or ambition, or whatever\' it\'s not about two ways
[17/04/21 01:32] Kaya Salta: (He seemed quite ready to throw all morals away for love)
[17/04/21 01:32] Ungod:the way is one, you just choose the quantity
[17/04/21 01:32] Ungod: (the knight here wasnt me, lol)
[17/04/21 01:32] Ungod:a dilemma is a bilemma, that is a 2 lemma
[17/04/21 01:32] Ungod:i meant it stricto sensu
[17/04/21 01:33] *Miq*:i must admit that i have an urge to argue with almost every sentence
[17/04/21 01:33] Kaya Salta:Turning it into an open question
[17/04/21 01:33] Ungod:Miq, this is why this quest has started 3 hrs ago
[17/04/21 01:33] Dracoloth: (I think that\'s a bit naive, you can be in love and have a good life, you just need to be in love with someone who isn\'t a psycho, and also not be obsessed)
[17/04/21 01:33] MaGoHi:yD
[17/04/21 01:33] Kaya Salta:Fair... But kind of a trick question
[17/04/21 01:33] *Miq*:i mean everything is wrong
[17/04/21 01:33] Ungod: (no, if you\'re in love, you\'re not living a good life) à
[17/04/21 01:33] Dracoloth:ungod that\'s not what dilemma means, the di is not 2
[17/04/21 01:33] Demonic God: (tbh with that definition of a dilemma, I didn\'t really view this as one)
[17/04/21 01:34] Kaya Salta: (I don\'t think love prohibits a good life)
[17/04/21 01:34] Ungod: (then what is the best way to define this case, then=?)
[17/04/21 01:34] MaGoHi: (uhm, wut, i am sure that since i am in love i live a better life xD)
[17/04/21 01:34] Bash Chelik:it is enough to love and have a good life only if you are a god:D
[17/04/21 01:34] Dracoloth: (Yeah I\'ve got to flat out disagree with you on that one ungod)
[17/04/21 01:34] Ungod:i think it does. love is a distorted vision of the other, and maybe on life
[17/04/21 01:34] MaGoHi: (or rather since i love someone that loves me back)
[17/04/21 01:34] Ungod:that can be appreciation of devotion (to marriage)
[17/04/21 01:34] Ungod:but not love
[17/04/21 01:35] *Miq*:i honestly think you have lost somewhere the meaning of love
[17/04/21 01:35] Ungod:or devotion*
[17/04/21 01:35] Ungod:i think we\'re not on the same page because you have a very broad definition of lvoe
[17/04/21 01:35] *Miq*:you have :)
[17/04/21 01:35] Ungod:one that incorporates respect, appreacitation, devotion etc
[17/04/21 01:35] :Yala Sviseusen walks in and looks around
[17/04/21 01:35] MaGoHi:i have to agree with miq
[17/04/21 01:35] *Miq*:it\'s not obbession or lust or emotions spurring from rejection etc
[17/04/21 01:36] Ungod:love is that passion that comea and goes, like a candle, like the kind Sapho was writing about
[17/04/21 01:36] Dracoloth:I also agree with Miq
[17/04/21 01:36] Bash Chelik:That, most certainly, is not love
[17/04/21 01:36] *Miq*:love is not passion either
[17/04/21 01:36] Ungod:this is why you\'ll write a common statement and i\'ll present that to chwett
[17/04/21 01:36] Dracoloth:Does someone want to put together our statement?
[17/04/21 01:36] *Miq*:this indeed splits at the root level
[17/04/21 01:37] Ungod:because all the other kinds of love you talk about, aren\'t love for me...they\'re soething else, and theyre good things, but not love
[17/04/21 01:37] Ungod:not really, miq, it\'s a cultural thing
[17/04/21 01:37] Ungod:think about it
[17/04/21 01:37] Nepgear: (I\'m already in bed D:)
[17/04/21 01:37] MaGoHi:to me it sounds more like you had a crush that faded
[17/04/21 01:37] Ungod:you have romeo and juliet, or such stories as our case, or st. augustin\'s love and do what you want
[17/04/21 01:37] MaGoHi:but not persistent love for someone
[17/04/21 01:37] *Miq*:i already figured it cultural difference
[17/04/21 01:37] Ungod:this is how love is idealized in the medieval times
[17/04/21 01:38] Ungod:now, take something like the asian cultures
[17/04/21 01:38] Ungod:with the ren concept of china
[17/04/21 01:38] Ungod:with the same idea of loyalty to parent and country in japan
[17/04/21 01:38] Ungod:then emphasize duty,not love
[17/04/21 01:38] Ungod:duty, devotion, appreaciation, that\'s what creates couples etc
[17/04/21 01:38] Kaya Salta:I will argue against the idea that love was idealized like this in medieval times
[17/04/21 01:38] *Miq*:but i do not think that cultural difference changes love in the end
[17/04/21 01:38] Bash Chelik:Guys, you will have more luck to number the things which love is not than what love is. After all, for the one of love.. love simply is, and that can never be question
[17/04/21 01:39] *Miq*:it just makes ju make decisions that culture demands
[17/04/21 01:39] Kaya Salta:In fact, love like this was heavily looked down upon, and is mostly found to lead to tragedy
[17/04/21 01:39] Dracoloth:Kaya is correct, love was never idealized like this, the exact opposite in fact
[17/04/21 01:39] Ungod:i also dont think it ahcnges much, but the overall perception is different, and some decisions we take, that are based on culture, are going to be differenrt
[17/04/21 01:40] Ungod:look, even in the Greek times, you had two types of love described - love that kills,a nd love that nurtures
[17/04/21 01:40] Ungod:so i agree not all love was idealized as such
[17/04/21 01:40] *Miq*:your culture makes you go at date x to your mothers home and have a meal
[17/04/21 01:40] Dracoloth:romeo and juliet which you keep mentioning was not an idealization of love. It was a tragedy.
[17/04/21 01:40] *Miq*:mine does the same on day Y
[17/04/21 01:40] Ungod:yes, and we study it in school
[17/04/21 01:40] *Miq*:I don\'t go on either day
[17/04/21 01:40] *Miq*:does it chane my love for my mother?
[17/04/21 01:40] Ungod:we dont study something that talks about devotion, we study this kind of love
[17/04/21 01:41] Dracoloth:if your teacher taught you to idealize the type of love in romeo and juliet I\'m sorry but your teacher was terrible
[17/04/21 01:41] Ungod:but that\'s not it, miq, it\'s about the decisions you make when influenced by some tales
[17/04/21 01:41] Ungod:they didnt teach me taht, because i never read the story, like i was supposed to
[17/04/21 01:41] *Miq*:they might be
[17/04/21 01:42] Bash Chelik:And what do Syri think?:))
[17/04/21 01:42] Ungod:but it is the type of love presented, like a bad sooap opera, instead of a more normal love
[17/04/21 01:42] *Miq*:but i do try to keep any of such influences at bay
[17/04/21 01:42] Dracoloth:Then perhaps you don\'t understand what romeo and juliet was really about
[17/04/21 01:42] *Miq*:with the exeption of sir terry pratchett
[17/04/21 01:42] Ungod:i actually know where it comes from, so...i get it
[17/04/21 01:42] Ungod:it\'s a rendition of ovid\'s retelling of a greek myth, which is in turn a retelling of a babylonian story
[17/04/21 01:42] *Miq*:romeo and juliet was a show about dramatic waste of life
[17/04/21 01:42] Kaya Salta:Most literature came in the form of cautionary tales of what not to do
[17/04/21 01:42] Dracoloth:^
[17/04/21 01:43] Kaya Salta:Medieval literature was heavily moralistic
[17/04/21 01:43] Ungod:i\'d agree, but you dont get that in school. at laest i didnt. i had to read stuff myself
[17/04/21 01:43] *Miq*:it was also here until the end of USSR
[17/04/21 01:43] Dracoloth:You get that in good schools, but you said you didn\'t even read it
[17/04/21 01:44] Ungod:but these were some of my thoughts about love. does anyone here agree love is a product of one\'s mind?
[17/04/21 01:44] Ungod:because i feel like i\'m alone on this one
[17/04/21 01:44] *Miq*:every creation of the mind is
[17/04/21 01:44] Kaya Salta:Love is a product of the mind
[17/04/21 01:44] Dracoloth:Everything is a product of your mind, that doesnt make it bad
[17/04/21 01:44] Kaya Salta:That is definitely true
[17/04/21 01:44] *Miq*:with exeption of lust and some other phormonial things
[17/04/21 01:44] Kaya Salta:With a touch of chemistry/biology
[17/04/21 01:44] Bash Chelik:We all are, Ungod
[17/04/21 01:45] Ungod:ok, cuz i\'ll give you another example
[17/04/21 01:45] Ungod:soemtimes when i take a walk on the mountain, i think a particular scenery is just beautiful
[17/04/21 01:45] Ungod:just lovely
[17/04/21 01:45] *Miq*:damn kids woke!
[17/04/21 01:46] Ungod:but then, when i think about it, all those birds chirping? hunting those nice tree blooming? just doing their thing. everything in nature survives and fights for survival, and here i am just thinki
[17/04/21 01:46] Ungod:ng it\'s soo beautiful. it\'s not, it\'s just my perception
[17/04/21 01:46] Bash Chelik:See what Miq said. That is love.
[17/04/21 01:46] Ungod:beauty doesnt exist. but without those moments, i woundt feel good on the trail
[17/04/21 01:46] Bash Chelik:To percive love is also love
[17/04/21 01:46] Dracoloth:your perception is what create beauty, so it does exist, because you create it
[17/04/21 01:47] Dracoloth:creates*
[17/04/21 01:47] Ungod:love is like that. it doesnt exist, and if you drown in it, you get hurt. without it, you cannot go on
[17/04/21 01:47] Bash Chelik:Ye
[17/04/21 01:47] Ungod:no, draco, it\'s all in my mnnind
[17/04/21 01:47] Ungod:it doesnt actually exist
[17/04/21 01:47] Kaya Salta:I\'m not sure if I agree with the idea that something being a product of the mind means it doesn\'t exist
[17/04/21 01:47] Bash Chelik:I mean ye, what draco said:D
[17/04/21 01:47] Dracoloth:why is your mind any less real than anything else?
[17/04/21 01:47] Ungod:it\'s not real. it\'s only as real as i want it to be
[17/04/21 01:47] MaGoHi:i really feel like hugging ungod and patting his back now that i hear what he thinks love is
[17/04/21 01:48] Ungod:if i say this book is fascinating, and you say it isnt, how is that book, really?
[17/04/21 01:48] Ungod:thankee, Mag
[17/04/21 01:48] Kaya Salta:In fact, if we follow Descartes, our thoughts are the only thing we can be sure exist
[17/04/21 01:48] Ungod:i like to get hugs from people :)
[17/04/21 01:48] :Dracoloth hugs ungod
[17/04/21 01:48] Ungod:it\'s our mind that gives qualities to things, qualities that arent there
[17/04/21 01:48] Bash Chelik:I`m not sure that rene`s thoughts are nice things to follow:D
[17/04/21 01:48] :Ungod announces he will receive all hugs in good faith
[17/04/21 01:49] MaGoHi:well the qualities are there
[17/04/21 01:49] :Bash Chelik hugs Ungod
[17/04/21 01:49] Kaya Salta:Then I\'ll give one too ^^
[17/04/21 01:49] :Kaya Salta hugs Ungod
[17/04/21 01:49] Dracoloth:Now this is getting into philosophy class, and I can tell you for a fact everyone here could debate this for days and never get anywhere
[17/04/21 01:49] MaGoHi:like you notice a person is kind and you think that is a good quality
[17/04/21 01:49] Ungod:well, it\'s MD, isn\'t it?
[17/04/21 01:50] Bash Chelik:MD is also love
[17/04/21 01:50] MaGoHi:so the thing is there in the person and it is just a thing that you think of as good
[17/04/21 01:50] Ungod:is it, though? kindness comes either from weak people, or people with ana genda
[17/04/21 01:50] Kaya Salta:We should\'ve continued with the "what is reality" train of thought we had at some point
[17/04/21 01:50] Dracoloth: (xD)
[17/04/21 01:50] Dracoloth:That really is what this has come down to
[17/04/21 01:50] Dracoloth:What is real
[17/04/21 01:51] Ungod:i am kind, Mag, but only because it gives me faith in tomorrow. i dont believe in kindness
[17/04/21 01:51] Ungod:i like beautiful things, and i value friendship. but they dont exist, also
[17/04/21 01:51] Kaya Salta:For I do believe creations of the mind are, in some ways, very real
[17/04/21 01:51] Bash Chelik:Belief is meant for things that cannot be provedn, Ungod, and you are nice for a fact:)
[17/04/21 01:51] Dracoloth:I do too Kaya
[17/04/21 01:52] Ungod:yes, and they can hurt you, and even kill you
[17/04/21 01:52] Ungod:suicide is not in anyone\'s genes, but, although commanded by nature, it will come on creatures of the mind
[17/04/21 01:52] Kaya Salta:In fact, they\'re the main thing distinguishing us from a rock
[17/04/21 01:52] Bash Chelik:If its in your head, then it is real regardless from the fatc is it real or not

On a final note, send Ungod lots of hugs ^^

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That was a great summary, thank you.

Because of my shortcomings in making this quest (which had a very specific purpose that I failed to achieve), I have asked Chewett to sponsor the full rewards to all participants.

It wasn't all bad, I guess, but I woke up looking particularly terrible this morning, which means if you drag quests for hours...*they*'re not the only ones who are going to feel that. Lesson learnt :) 

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I don't really like calling them shortcomings. The answers you were looking for and the one we were aiming for were just slightly different. The discussion afterwards is one of the reasons I'm still visiting MD after all these years, so, in a way, I feel like the quest did serve its purpose. :)

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Spoiler

 

Now I'm a bore, but I feel like I have a better way of explaining what I was after.

Suppose you stay up until 2 a.m. or 5 a.m. to play MD, sacrificing hours of sleep and maybe personal health. Now, that could be called love. Love for a game. But, do you really love MD? By MD, I mean the objective, physical reality of MD. MD is a bunch of code on a server, if you can call that physical reality, and I doubt that is what you love. What you love is what MD means to you, therefore not the real MD, but your own version of MD (what Plato liked to call 'the world of perfect objects' or something). In this sense, love is not real, because it doesn't reside in any real object or person around you. 

But I also said sacrificing your sleeping hours for the game (yourself, in a way) is love, and it's hard to explain sacrifice in the absence of some reality, no? Therefore, by love we mean this feeling inside someone which makes him/her act upon the reality we all share in a certain manner, and these actions cannot be explained without the existence of that feeling. It's similar to a drunk who's intoxicated and does things that have no reason, and we say 'why?' 'well, he's drunk' or 'well, he's in love'.

So the knight there had to realize the object of his love was not his mother or his lover (real persons in the reality we can all touch, see, smell etc, and agree on), but himself, because love has no real objects. The moment he had realized that, he should have been left with no choice whatsoever. He didn't have to choose between two loves with two separate objects; there are no objects for love. On the contrary, when you are analyzing someone's actions, you have to give some materiality/reality to the feeling that moves them, and so you call it anger, love, fear etc and you're left wondering how to explain that to someone, since it's something always personal, unique, and only real to yourself. Even love for a game is different, although it can be argued 'hey, we're all here, so what would you call this group love?'...

Aaand I see there's just no way you can explain this in plain English to someone. I'm defeated; I thought that maybe, maybe MD-ers can help. Sorry :( 

 

 

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