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Guardian of Tools Should Grabban based on depletion?


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Aethon, that is your opinion. But please, do not ask for the public's sympathy for the sake of making your assumptions real strong. It won't be healthy for you. I am just doing my part, with that Guardian role, nothing personal like what you are assuming.

My response of 'LOL' was intended for you (though my fault for not making it clear here what was that for) for your sudden "stunt" action against me. And my opinion with what you done, like what I posted on your PL in-game, you pathetically trying to be relevant again. Nice try.

You have a problem with my role? Why not contact Miq? Or if you, like most, want me out in MD? Go for Chewett/Mur.

You got the nerve to say I am doing these for personal reasons. Prove it.

 

Anyways, darkraptor, didn't you hoard like three (3) Pickaxe at GG capitol? I may not have a screenshot of the chances I saw your inventory, but I saw it multiple times. Lucky you are the Guardian at that location has not done anything against you.

 

I stand by my belief/judgment, depletion is also an abuse. And as a Guardian, provided with a legislator tool, sticking to that role and without any outside influence, I have to do what I have to do. I may have done the same thing to No one, but I do not have the chance to catch him; and there were times he depleted MB water sources with his customized/modified/god-mode water gathering tool, and this tool I hold won't help me.

Yes, you had a screenshot of me depleting a water source inside LR, the one that usually only reaches one (1) water when regenerated (rain-weathers don't refill that source, fyi, and you know that for sure). What about those at Raven's Peace? At Wasp's Totem? You have any screenshots too? Regardless of who depleted/depletes water at those sources, I do not made those as basis to use this legislator tool as it is already outside MB. Or maybe you overlooked my note to you when I used a tool on you? I stated inside MB and never I said any outside MB.

Like now, Day 212 04:20 ST, I see No one depleted water here in Raven's Peace. I won't interfere with LR Citizen's resource rule even I have a tool and chance to ban him. Of course, I will when he does that again at MB.

Sorry for my grammar if you find it difficult to understand.

 

Merged, no need for 3 consecutive posts. ~B

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3 hours ago, nadrolski said:

I stand by my belief/judgment, depletion is also an abuse.

See, I wouldn't give a flying flabberflap if you weren't depleting yourself. That is the issue.

The argument about whether depletion is abuse or not is, in my opinion, beyond this topic. The real problem here is that you grabban Darkraptor while you yourself deplete. Why not grabban yourself? You're breaking your own rule based on simply the citizenship of the offender or a personal preference, which is fundamentally against what this role is meant to be. 

That is the problem. Not to mention the fact that MB has a single water tool that can be used by outsiders, and you still grabban its use. You have a monopoly and a single tool that you're preventing the use of. That sounds like tool abuse to me.

Edited by Aeoshattr
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On 29 de julho de 2016 at 4:20 PM, DarkRaptor said:

don't came again with depletion rules or whatever!!

NadDepletesMB_160727.jpg

Ohhh look.. nad depleting MB!

Yes i have loads of screenshots and logs where you assist others to hoard MB itens.

Your lack of consistency and duality makes me think you are clearly not up to the role.

enjoy your abuse! :-)

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14 hours ago, nadrolski said:

Aethon, that is your opinion. But please, do not ask for the public's sympathy for the sake of making your assumptions real strong. It won't be healthy for you. I am just doing my part, with that Guardian role, nothing personal like what you are assuming.

My response of 'LOL' was intended for you (though my fault for not making it clear here what was that for) for your sudden "stunt" action against me. And my opinion with what you done, like what I posted on your PL in-game, you pathetically trying to be relevant again. Nice try.

You have a problem with my role? Why not contact Miq? Or if you, like most, want me out in MD? Go for Chewett/Mur.

You got the nerve to say I am doing these for personal reasons. Prove it.

 

Anyways, darkraptor, didn't you hoard like three (3) Pickaxe at GG capitol? I may not have a screenshot of the chances I saw your inventory, but I saw it multiple times. Lucky you are the Guardian at that location has not done anything against you.

 

I stand by my belief/judgment, depletion is also an abuse. And as a Guardian, provided with a legislator tool, sticking to that role and without any outside influence, I have to do what I have to do. I may have done the same thing to No one, but I do not have the chance to catch him; and there were times he depleted MB water sources with his customized/modified/god-mode water gathering tool, and this tool I hold won't help me.

Yes, you had a screenshot of me depleting a water source inside LR, the one that usually only reaches one (1) water when regenerated (rain-weathers don't refill that source, fyi, and you know that for sure). What about those at Raven's Peace? At Wasp's Totem? You have any screenshots too? Regardless of who depleted/depletes water at those sources, I do not made those as basis to use this legislator tool as it is already outside MB. Or maybe you overlooked my note to you when I used a tool on you? I stated inside MB and never I said any outside MB.

Like now, Day 212 04:20 ST, I see No one depleted water here in Raven's Peace. I won't interfere with LR Citizen's resource rule even I have a tool and chance to ban him. Of course, I will when he does that again at MB.

Sorry for my grammar if you find it difficult to understand.

 

Merged, no need for 3 consecutive posts. ~B

I wish I had the effort to reply to all of this, but I don't - sadly.

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you pathetically trying to be relevant again

Not really, I purposefully backed away from MD for the exact opposite. I got involved because all I see is a flopshade abusing a land ally of mine -- it's an in-character response to an in-game action. Of course...you have to try and take it from the correct context, but that's just due to your naivety.

Quote

Anyways, darkraptor, didn't you hoard like three (3) Pickaxe at GG capitol?

Quote

Or maybe you overlooked my note to you when I used a tool on you? I stated inside MB and never I said any outside MB.

Isn't this rather contradicting? You're basing your grabban off of a scenario you have no proof of and one that also has no connection to the MB tools whatsoever?

As for your "depletion talk". Three words. Pot, Kettle, Black.

 

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Other Marind Bell citizens have taken shared items and darkraptor is the only one getting banned after taking a bucket. Since the reason given for the ban was "for depleting water inside Marind Bell" I would assume nadrolski might not ban darkraptor if he was to only take a bucket but not deplete within MB. If that is the case then the issue here seems to be if nadrolski should use his tool to prevent non-MB citizens from depleting water from MB sources.

Given that land leaders can specify how to perform the tool guardian role and that depletion is a natural effect of tool usage, it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that a guardian might ban a player for depleting. But this line from the announcement seems to point against making a monopoly for your land: "They should guard the tools from abuse, not from people they personally dislike or from non citizens." It would seem like depletion should be countered no matter who is committing the act, and any actions should be unbiased.

Although for this situation specifically water from MB is a special case, since it gets refilled by rain, and this removes some of the argument for why darkraptor needs to be banned at all since it can hardly be counted as depleting. All in all I feel as if darkraptor should not be being banned, though I can see some of the reasons why he was.

Edited by Mallos
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My following answer is not for the entire topic in detail but for specific issues raised in it:

 

- Depletion is not an abuse punishable officially, it is part of the gameplay, however so are some punishing methods. I will never jail someone for depleting resources or ban him or whatver, it is not a flaw, depleting resources is part of how things should work, to create certain tension and to put some things in motion. Its pointless to explain any more why  depletion is not an abuse in my view, but its more important to explain why it is equally important to allow lesser authorities to use their own abilities and tools as they consider too.

So, we have the following "conflict" here (leaving aside any other dispute discussed in here):

Depletion is not something officially punishable yet at the same time individual authorities may use their abilities as they think fit. My intention, to be honest, was to see some sort of division of laws and regulations depending on land. This allows exactly this, but you seem to want a more global ruling system...thats interesting, but it is also due to the small number of people.

Why not give the chance to judges to do their role here?

How do you judge something that is not officially a crime to do, but the punisher is entitled to consider it a crime in his own eyes? I say keep an open mind and avoid comparison to RL regarding this...give it a chance for a new judging without poluting it by existing RL situations.

 

In RL, this is similat to mafia laws but in the opposite way. Something the higher authority considers a crime, may be considered legit, and the opposite, yet the two "factions" live under the same roof, so a certain sepparation appears. In MD this sepparation would have been to see individual rules per land, set by the authorities in that land or by a replacement authority higher than the enforcer, and enforced by those given the tools....

 

anyway, thats my view on this, and as i said, i find it more interesting to let this be solved by a judge as an individual case...and be considered not a precedent but a WARNING that you should think of a better social structure on your own. MD offers you exactly this chance, to rejudge/see people, positions, roles and society with a fresh untainted view.

Use it.

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At a glance, my first draft would be like this:

Both parties are acting within the rules of the game, so we're not talking punishments.

Nadrolski is using a Mur-spell accessible to several players, which is limited to being used on people who abuse shared items in any way. Mur claimed that he'd specify abuse cases, but didn't, so we'll have to work off what we have.

Abuse cases laid out by Mur so far are a) having more than one of the same type, b) hoarding on an alt. Starting from there, his intentions seem to go towards using legislatior items to make sure that the items remain accessible to a number of people, where the 'number of people' is defined by the number of items he's providing for each type. I'd think that the factor 'availabilty of the items' needs to be differentiated from the factor 'availabilty of resources', as Mur has stated several times that depletion of resources is something he wants to have in game.

Thus, taking several items of one type out of the game on one account is definitely an abuse. I'd even argue that having more than one of a type on one person is an abuse, since Mur made it clear that he doesn't want hoarding on alts, and neither having more than one on an account. Taking that to a stretch, we could argue whether it's hoarding to have one item on one account, and another of the same type on an alt (which i'd agree to if i had to), but one item per person per rotation is definitely not an abuse case Mur had in mind.

The argument of Nad has merit as well, since depletion of a resource means that other people can't use their items while they have it. It makes no difference to a player whether he has no bucket, or whether he has a bucket, but no options to use it, the result is the same: no water dowsed. However, there are several instances when Mur has laid out that he doesn't intend for people to be able to use their stuff too easily, specifically in relation to resources. For example, he's made cauldrons team-based, and set up big stacks of resources in remote locations, both making it harder to use your resources. So, i think we can safely say that Mur didn't mean for depletion of resources to be a case of abuse by default. On the other hand, since the interpretation of Mur's rules leads to making items available to people, and having an item available, but un-usable would be pointless, we can also safely say that depleting all places at all times is an abusive practice.

That leaves the grey zone of abuse between those two: Depleting one location is acceptable, depleting them all is not. So, from my point of view, it boils down to the question how badly darkraptor depleted Marind Bell, and that's something i don't know as of yet, and it might be that his first use of the legislator item was justified. However, it seems that nad banned darkraptor from the buckets for 2 consecutive weeks, and it's simply not possible for dark to do something abusive with a shared item while he's locked out of said shared item. Granted, Mur talks about guarding the items from abuse, but if each case of abuse was enough to preventively lock out people for a prolonged period of time, there would be no way for them to rehabilitate, so that seems to be taking it too far.

So, without judgement on the lockout dark posted about on july 21, the lockout he posted about on july 29 seems unreasonable, and unless there's proof of dark doing something abusive with MB's water resources between july 21 and july 29, i'd be highly inclined to rule in favor of darkraptor for that one.

 

Again, that's draft version, without looking for specific MB rules (i actually don't even know if such exist) and without getting evidence from either side. If you want a case specific, 'final' ruling, it'd take some evidence, and i'd need to check for all the specific rules.

[Also, in case you didn't notice: If nad depletes resources or not might be a psychological factor, but it doesn't make a difference to how he uses his legislator stuff.]

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For me it's simpler: nadrolski has banned darkraptor for "depleting" the water in MB. Let's say that the first time it was legit although I haven't seen ANY rules about depletion from any king/queen in MB hence nadrolski applied his own laws to it (laws which apply only for others and not for him when he depletes other lands).

Second ban was plain and simple abuse. It was nadrolski flexing his muscles because Mur made no rules for the tools and because he could. For this I would punish him especially since he's doing the same (deplete) to other lands.  If for Burns doesn't count, it does for me. Remember when he used to yell in the mood panel something like "practice what you preach"? This shows that he's a hypocrite, unfit for the role he has because he cannot be objective.

 

For the record: this is what nadrolski has on him at the moment:

nadrolski_items_05082016.PNG

 

 

 

 

Edited by dst
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I don't really like resources militia, but then again, I don't know what could be done in case of depletion, so I just observe and adapt to whatever happens. My opinion is that if MD had double the population, legislator tools would be used as a way to prevent or stop depletion, regardless of land. I'm pointing it out because it seems nadrolski is being painted in blacker colors than should.

Also, I find it interesting what Mur said, about different regulations for each land...Basically, if MB decided that depleters of MB water (and this is why darkraptor got banned, for depleting MB water, not any other source of water) should be banned, it can do it, while Golemus can very well decide that they will not ban depleters of mineral ore resources if they have one pickaxe only (for example)...

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if i'm not wrong then the point was to restrict tool hoarding and not prevention of depletion, thus there should be mentioned:

guardian of tools is not guardian of resources (i think i had a conversation with miq about that)

if it is considered the same then i request a name change to make things clear for anyone.

ALSO:

14 hours ago, Ungod said:

Also, I find it interesting what Mur said, about different regulations for each land...Basically, if MB decided that depleters of MB water (and this is why darkraptor got banned, for depleting MB water, not any other source of water) should be banned, it can do it, while Golemus can very well decide that they will not ban depleters of mineral ore resources if they have one pickaxe only (for example)...

each land can have its own rules, BUT they have to be equal for all players, so if a MB player depletes and nad ignores it but then bans someone else for doing the exact same thing then i would consider it favouritism and thats sort of an abuse of power for the own or in that specific case for his land OR if our dear friend nad depletes himself with multiple buckets on him then he should grabban himself :)

 

that said, WATER is pretty much THE ONLY resource that can be REFILLED EASILY so seriously stop crying about its depletion

 

-Mag

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2 hours ago, MaGoHi said:

each land can have its own rules, BUT they have to be equal for all players, so if a MB player depletes and nad ignores it but then bans someone else for doing the exact same thing then i would consider it favouritism and thats sort of an abuse of power for the own or in that specific case for his land OR if our dear friend nad depletes himself with multiple buckets on him then he should grabban himself

I might even be okay with rules that favor citizens over non-citizens, but they should be well defined and posted publicly. Other lands could respond by banding together to deplete resources in lands that do this, passing harvesting restrictions of their own, or even placing trade embargoes against foreign citizens.

Methinks kings these days really need ought read more Machiavelli or something.

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On 7/31/2016 at 4:01 AM, nadrolski said:

You got the nerve to say I am doing these for personal reasons. Prove it.

I can prove it : you enjoy it :) . That is a personal reason.

And ... I am sorry to say , but this was a ... bold but dumb move :

4 hours ago, dst said:

And he strikes again:

nadrolski bans No one from grabbing shared items for 1440min. All shared Marindbell items held by this player have been returned to the item dispatcher.

nadrolski: For depleting MB waters last week.

@ MB:

Anyway, disregarding the above ... I think that MB rulers should consider containing the trouble maker(s) before more "damage" is being done to MB.

For the moment only water is being taken ... and understandable if you have any way to think about it. But if this "grapan" continues ... I guess that MB will find itself voided of any resources for a quite extensive period.

If this goes further .. I guess that every MB player might find itself unable to hold any tool except MB ... for the same reason as nad's "just because".

This is not a threat but a thought. Don't rush it.

So, consider talking and taking a calm decision.

--------

PS: I'd enjoy  this state. Will you ?

-------

On 8/5/2016 at 7:55 PM, Aethon said:

@Burns @dst

Opinions?

Don't ask others what can they do for you but ask yourself what can you do for others. ;)

Don't forget to have fun.

Edited by No one
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Personally I find depleting to be taking resources below the 66% threshold, at which the next day the resource won't regen to full and it will make it more difficult to harvest resources efficiently. It may be of use to differentiate it from harvesting all of the resources at a given location.

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i am waiting for a solution decided by you, not by me or chew. As i said, we are talking about officially legal, but potentially punishable actions. this is not an abuse trial, its your decision how you will use the provided tools. I said all i had to say in the previous post...its all there.,,let me know when you conclude something

 

 

 

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If I couldn't speak out to Mur/Chew here in sake of nadrolski and other tool guardians who have gone inactive, their roles should stay for now and we see how many "points" they gain with their new roles, I think newer more veteran "point" earners would be more suited to take over their roles in time.

Currently I feel as lands should be able to behave in any way their tool holder and/or King/Queen wants to specify here on the forum, or else possible replacements can be issued (maybe like trust points for the tool guardians).

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