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My opinion (I was already asked - I was the player Chewy censored the name and thank you for that Chew) was given before seeing the chat and I voted for no punishment (well, I suggested his crits to b

I cannot find the exact quote but I will try to remember correctly. Its taken from one of Jiddu Krishnamurti conversations. "If there is conflict there cannot be truth at the same time ..."

ivorak, very interesting what comes out when you put a spotlight on someone.....(i hope he has an explenation?) i want to make a more general clarification for other people that might work with me

You called him a thief rider implying he stole something from you? A thief is someone who steals? No?

As for lying - you promised to Gg that you'd always be loyal to them, yet you betrayed them?  So you are a liar.

Cheater. You cheated the gg's out of their alliance? So you are a cheater too.

Since you are a liar and acheater, 2 out of three accusations you made on aethon, should you get punished like aethon as well? Controversial. And in your case there was no misunderstanding.

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Also if I may say, from this thread I have realised that MD is a game where lying and cheating are considered to be bigger crimes than broad daylight murder and assassinations. A game where being an assassin is a role, and murder weapons are rare tools, but misunderstandings are a crime which might get you banned for an year. Where benefit of doubt is given to people who break rules regularly and punishment for an year is an option for misunderstandings. Interesting concept, no? Exceeds expectations.

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1 hour ago, Nimrodel said:

Also if I may say, from this thread I have realised that MD is a game where lying and cheating are considered to be bigger crimes than broad daylight murder and assassinations.

This is completely off-topic. If you want to discuss it, I suggest opening a new topic. I strongly disagree, but don't want to deflect the current conversation. :) 

Edited by Aeoshattr
Clarified which part of the post I was referring to in quotes.
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12 minutes ago, Aeoshattr said:

This is completely off-topic. If you want to discuss it, I suggest opening a new topic. I strongly disagree, but don't want to deflect the current conversation. :) 

It was meant to be a part of the post before that. But guess I didn't post it quick enough. Also, please don't do modding. You are not a mod :)

It's not really off topic as you seem to think because the options which mur put up as punishments for what seems like a misunderstanding are huge compared to the stuff that should actually be punished on grounds of morality. Is it because it is Aethon? Or is it on grounds of morality?

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At first glance, even I read it like you said "exactly" to his last part about grabbing. HOWEVER, Aethon is not dumb. You clearly said that he will keep the things after the project was done and he knew this.

I think the punishment should not be for grabbing the crits, it should be for trying to play smart and use language twists against you, to try and save himself from trouble.

But the punishment should not be big, because it was indeed a partial misunderstanding. That is why I voted for: "Confiscate the goods aquired and do nothing more". I would also give a warning not to do it again. And definitely not trust him with this OP stuff in the future.

 

P.S: Mur, next time when giving such OP items, make sure everything is clarified lol

P.S. #2: If this was a first-time case, I would not punish Aethon. But he has a history of such stuff, unfortunately.

Edited by DARK DEMON
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Altough it wasn't worded right it's obvious what was the initial idea of giving out those tools. And it wasn't for Aethon's personal gain. As for giving him a warning i dont think it will do any good because he already has the record of abusing given stuff http://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/3502 and with continuing to do it he's showing that he has trouble with following the rules (insert heat solidifier incident here), doesn't respect the trust he was given and that he probably doesn't mean to stop with abuse in the future so i would say off with his head. S̶t̶r̶i̶p̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶a̶i̶n̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶o̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶n̶e̶f̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶l̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶b̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶j̶a̶i̶l̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶1̶2̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶t̶h̶s̶.̶

Strip him of everything he gained, his role that he's using to get to the tools and abuse them later for his personal benefit and jail him for 12 months.

I also wonder if it will affect this http://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/3915

Edited by Neno Veliki
Reworded one sentence.
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3 hours ago, Nimrodel said:

Also if I may say, from this thread I have realised that MD is a game where lying and cheating are considered to be bigger crimes than broad daylight murder and assassinations. 

That's a matter of taste. I prefer being beaten up than lied to and I prefer to beat someone up rather than cheat him/her. In the end, harm is harm, so that's why it's a matter of taste.

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There's a lot to reply to here but I want to try and leave this as...uninfluenced as possible.

But quickly:

@blackrider - Please feel free to point out anything I have ever stolen? Also, I don't lie. I twist words, there is a huge difference. Cheating? Well, comes down to opinion...but I've never cheated on anything either, just used what I had.

@Neno Veliki - "For personal gain". Really? Are you telling me that anyone with roles does it all for "free" and ensures it has no gain for themselves? You've never accepted payments or rewards for your drawings? No? Of course you have.

Also, that link you bring up us from when I was around 15-20 days old and...well...I won't even bother commenting.

@Muratus del Mur - I have no idea what you're saying? My horseman was for me to do as I wished with? Unless you're going to tell me that now I can't even enjoy my own items and creatures?

--

I will say this now, and I will say it clear. My character, as Aethon, is an explorer and documenter. I will always uses tools, items, spells, whatever, to try and help further this, as this is the reason I actually play. If I am clearly told not to do something, I will not, if there is room to twist words and I feel I can "get away", then I shall. Why? Because why the hell should I not enjoy a game for the reason I want to play.

In this case I truly believed I could take so long as I documented and presented at the end; however, did me exploring those areas affect any of you? Did it have a huge knock on effect to any one? Did the creatures remain on me or did they get sold?

Am I sorry about the mistake? Yes. Do I think this has been blown far out of control? Yes. Do think some of you sad urchins are trying to take this as your chance to enact bitter revenge? Yes.

I will be hated, I will be loved. 

Do as you will.

 

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My opinion (I was already asked - I was the player Chewy censored the name and thank you for that Chew) was given before seeing the chat and I voted for no punishment (well, I suggested his crits to be "frozen" for a period of time and rules to be set for him if there weren't any).

Now, reading the chat I can say that personally I would have done the same.

It says:

Quote

:but you can make a list of things you find and wish to keep, in the end if you do good i might leve you to keep them

For me it means that I already have those. If it were meant to get them later then why not "wish to get" ? I agree English is not my native language and I might not understand it properly...

Then it's this:

Quote

just dont take big stocks

Again, it implies that he could take crits but not big stocks.

Was it a misunderstanding? It seems so.

But from a misunderstanding to jail him it's a big step. As Nimmy said: fang, fenrir, phantom orchid and others were given same powerful role and they had to mess up strongly to be punished and having their roles taken away. Why the change with Aethon? Btw: I don't think he did wrong and I think he should not be punished. I am just trying to see the situation from another point. If you think he did wrong why this big fuss? DD did a LOT more wrong when you worked with him last year. A LOT. And in the end you gave him a medal and made him king of the labyrinth.

I know md is not a fair game but this "incident" looks like a witch hunt.

Aethon has done more in MD in one year that others have done in 5. I will give examples for both if needed.

He's a resourceful, cunning and witty person. He EXPLORES and INVESTIGATES everything. He's smart. He's not afraid to do stuff and it's not bound by any strings to anything like some.

Now, as I said in the first response I have given: there has been an almost similar precedent:

https://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/818

Those guys got TONS. Yes, they had the crist removed and got a slap on the hand.

So if you want a precedent, this should be it. Although please remember the numbers: drach eggs - 5 was the smallest number while Aethon got 1 (ONE!) horseman and 2 shades (which btw: I have 2 as well and even sold a 3rd one - and no, not taken from the recruiting place).

 

So yes, imo Aethon should not be punished.

 

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Not being a mod doesn't mean someone shouldn't moderate if it is relevant to do so. :)

I have a couple of questions:

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:and with the mention that if you tap into the treasures of necrovion, you will do so just for research purposes, not for contraband.selling, not even personal collection.

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:but you can make a list of things you find and wish to keep, in the end if you do good i might leve you to keep them

[26/04/16 05:46] Aethon:Of course

[26/04/16 05:46] Muratus del Mur:just dont take big stocks

 

  • Taking anything should be only for research.
  • Aethon could keep a list of things he would like to keep.
  • Aethon should not take big stocks of anything.

 

Were the things taken, taken for the purposes of research only?

Were any big stocks taken?

Your own horseman you can do with as you please, certainly, but given you had a replacement - if Mur allowed you to keep the creature this would warrant deception. You can argue Mur should have paid attention to trades before deciding to allow you to keep or not, but to me, this would be a breaking of trust, the reasonable man shouldn't be expected to watch your every move and to argue to opposite is the thinking of a con artist. However, you can hide behind the fact that that situation never got to exist. 

I do not see the exploration as an issue, but I think you miss-understand the gain you get from it. It does affect everyone, whether you know it or not. However, I don't know if there was a conversation  about not abusing your ap to see special locations. It doesn't appear so anyway. Mur could have meant locations as treasure also, but this would be easy for someone to miss-understand.

Z

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1 hour ago, dst said:

DD did a LOT more wrong when you worked with him last year.

 

Before I'm potentially used as an example again, I just wanna say the above is BS and lacks evidence of any sort. I have not abused anything or any power without proper justification, ever, and I dare anyone to find a case that says otherwise. (and by 'abuse' I dont mean YOUR definition, I mean actual selfish/harmful abuse, because you will find every little thing and say 'omg its abuse' when its actually not).

Next time do not use me as an example to save Aethon, our situations aren't comparable.

Edited by DARK DEMON
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Umm..biased? Instead of appreciating how fair i was in presenting the problem you tell me i am biased? I should remind you that i am by definition biased since this is a case i have against him. I was one click away from punishing him, but i thought to give him an other chance...but its me against him with you as the judge... I never pretended to be impartial on this one, quite the contrary!!!!

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2 minutes ago, Neno Veliki said:

Well there's a diference between us Aethon. I'm not abusing my role, tools and trust i was given and you are. So in no universe you and me can be compared.

Also my above post was badly worded so i edited it to be clearer what i wanted to say.

A misunderstanding is abuse? Interesting. But at the end of the day, stating that using tools for personal gain is "wrong", or insinuating it is bad, must be the same for abuse or no abuse. You use your "powers" and "abilities" for personal gain as much as I did; so let's not be silly.

What's making you so salty Neno? :D

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18 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

Umm..biased? Instead of appreciating how fair i was in presenting the problem you tell me i am biased? I should remind you that i am by definition biased since this is a case i have against him. I was one click away from punishing him, but i thought to give him an other chance...but its me against him with you as the judge... I never pretended to be impartial on this one, quite the contrary!!!!

You can do what you want Mur. Its your game. Your kingdom. Your wish. You asked for an opinion and I gave it to you. When i called you biased i was reffering to this specific post:

12 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

oh so it was about profit afterall Aethon?

 

whats this a joke? you get a horseman and sell the other one, whats the difference, you still keep one. Its interesting that i don't see profit in selling, but in keeping, but its interesting to see how you get entagled in your own "defence"

When I read that piece of info which *Miq* posted, all I thought about was if *Miq* was worried about the trade going wrong. Not once it entered my mind that Aethon was after profit of Keeping the crit for himself. Also, as dst mentioned, in the past people commiting worse crimes were treated way better than aethon has been treated. Not even crazymike was given jail for an year after all those stats he acquired by scripting and you put it up as one of your options. Sure, you could've pressed that red button and punished Aethon right away Mur as you own the game at the end of the day. But would that make it fair? Would it make you just? The poll results should answer that for you.

 

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"I will say this now, and I will say it clear. My character, as Aethon, is an explorer and documenter. I will always uses tools, items, spells, whatever, to try and help further this, as this is the reason I actually play. If I am clearly told not to do something, I will not, if there is room to twist words and I feel I can "get away", then I shall. Why? Because why the hell should I not enjoy a game for the reason I want to play."

i am mobile so I can't really quote properly or as much as I wish but basically Aethon here is admitting to being a devious and abusive opportunist. 

Edited by Juni0r
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2 minutes ago, Juni0r said:

"I will say this now, and I will say it clear. My character, as Aethon, is an explorer and documenter. I will always uses tools, items, spells, whatever, to try and help further this, as this is the reason I actually play. If I am clearly told not to do something, I will not, if there is room to twist words and I feel I can "get away", then I shall. Why? Because why the hell should I not enjoy a game for the reason I want to play."

i am mobile so I can't really quote properly or as much as I wish but basically Aethon here is admitting to having a devious and abusive opportunist. 

That's me admitting my character. Does this mean I'm disloyal or will purposefully act against those that choose to help me? Nope.

Common sense is required as well; If you could get away with murder in real life, would you kill? I know I wouldn't. If I could get away with not doing a piece of coursework, would I not do it? Sure, why not?

Take from it what you will. At the end of the day I was forced into "doing something". I didn't specifically go to Mur and say "Hey! Treat me like crap, call me names under the sun and threaten me to do work! :D" he picked me out from everyone else.. HE should have known my personality, as many others do, resourceful. But considering he only listened to the voices of a few (that dislike me)...he doesn't know me at all. :)

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imagine the things you could have compained about if you had any kind of argue with me before this incident..... But we never interacted before and when we did, i treated you fair because you did ok. So you really can't blame me of being biased in that sense.

Despite the complains about you being in certain very bad ways (that i cant name without offending you), i gave you a chance to prove different. To get such a chance, ofc i had to push you harder. By chance i don't mean you being excused, but you given an opportunity to prove those that are against you that they are wrong.

I pick you AND FANG, i didnt forget about him, and coated this test in such way that it will not disclose that it was based on accusations, just because i cared about not harming you in any way at all, untill the test was complete. That means i technically assumed you are not "guilty" of any accusations.

Normally i wouldn't care, but you got in the spotlight with your "role", and became a public figure, a public figure with complains against him...so yes you have to answer to me if i wish to TEST you.

I did such tests countless times, and if the person passed my test, he got even nicely rewarded not just spared. I have my own agenda when testing md people and my own top list of "sins" and "qualities" that i punish or reward, i am not a normal judge but never intend to be one, i intend to be correct in the way i see its healthy for md, and in general that coincides with having a fair, loyal, honest and creative character.

It would be a lot more useful for you and actually anyone here, to think why i would randomly start an attack on a person that was communicating great with me a day before and that was so important to help me continue development. I am insane? Or stupid? Or why would i ruin that...hm?

 

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@Muratus del Mur Not that the post is addressed to me, But I could give a reason for that like you called Aethon's reason for selling his horseman 'for profit' But I'll choose not to because I will give you the benefit of doubt and I have faith that you aren't scheming or back stabbing or Two faced as I can attribute you to be by simply saying something.

 

 

 

Edited by Nimrodel
minor gramatical error which could convey a wrong sort of information
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The horseman Aethon sold was his own, so he is free to do with it what he wants. The exploration of the tunnel is also something related to his task, as he needs to know where he can obtain what resource. (And while I'm not quite sure what tunnel this is about, but if it is the one in NC than I can confirm he has been there before.)

Most people seem to understand the rules as they were intended, but there are also a considerable amount that say they might heve done the same. That being said, while the rules were multi-interpretable, they do clearly state that you will decide what he might keep once the task is done.

Aethon recruiting the crits is something he did at his own risk, as he (should) have known that you could tell him that, despite his cooperation, you do not believe the crits to be a suitable compensation. Even when selling his own horseman he must have understood that there was no guarantee that he would be able to keep the one he had recruited and that he might lose it.

Therefore if you believe Aethon unsuitable for the task you had given you can confiscate the creatures, as they are not yet his. Other than that I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt, as the rules are multi-interpretable.

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Also, tomorow the voting ends.

What i wrote above is the last thing i have to say about this case. I have absolutely no clue what the poll stats are and i don't wish to know before i end it. The votes will be counted for all "punish" options and for all "forgive" options to determine what sort of verdict it is, then based on their number, what sort of punishment or "not guilty" behaviour will be applied.

Because i made this trial public instead of just pushing the purge button myself when i was there, i forced myself to respect whatever decision will be voted. I will not hold personal grudges but i will remember this incident for future potentially similar situations. In other words, you wont be able to say an other time that it was a "missunderstanding" and hope to get away with it just because you are pretty.

If the vote sais punish, i won't touch/use any of the research/work you did, dont worry about that.

Also if the vote sais no punishment, i will anyway not communicate with you a period of time, otherwise i fear i will find it too difficult not to be biased..

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