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Pi is right when he says that the grasan rit can be that strong even without alliance bonuses, which are pretty miniscule when it comes to stats. However, I can understand the frustration of not being able to attack back as often as you would if the alliance member were a normal player.

Personally I don't agree with this advantage of alliance members at all, even though I am one. There are still the same incentives for attacking normal players: exp, won fights, skill increase, VP. Normal players who want to challenge themselves against the "most advanced" players can only try once an hour, even if those said "advanced" players can attack the normal players every 8 minutes, and why wouldn't they? Does it make sense?

I understand the purpose of the 1-hour attack time for alliance members (not loyalty, you get/lose only small amounts by fighting alliance members; instead because the honor system doesn't apply to alliance members, although the honor system doesn't work anyway.. well, in any case, to supplement "lack of restriction for attacking others"), but not for the attack time to apply to normal players. It would be better if:

1) normal players don't have to wait 1 hour; it's unnecessary for them to have to suffer when the purpose is accomplished without their suffering or

2) alliance players can only attack normal players once an hour, to make things slightly more fair. Also, to supplement lack of restriction for attacking others. -_- or

3) alliance members can only attack normal players once an hour and normal players can attack alliance members every 8 (I think that's the normal time?) minutes. After all, these alliance members are supposed to be the strongest, so they shouldn't need to be farming wins from weaker players so often; it would be a sort of trade-off for alliance play which would help the other mp5s gain ground on those who have been playing the game a long time.

I thought alliances would help even out the playing field in mp5, by offering the best players another aspect of the game to take the place of attacking weaker players day after day. It's pretty much done the opposite by giving an unfair, pointless advantage to the older/advanced players. I don't know how many feel the same way, except Padraig00 and Teclis, who started the topic about unfair advantages of alliance members. However, I noticed that nearly all the people who rebuffed that topic starter were in an alliance.. n_n; Their main points were "life is unfair," "it's more fun this way" and that the advantage wasn't too great in their opinion, if I am reading the posts correctly. You can read for yourself by clicking here.

Aqune said normal players might be intimidated by these alliance players, who are supposed to be the most achieving in the game behind rpcs, and thus refrain from expressing their opinion. Maybe not, I wouldn't know, but if there are normal players who feel the set-up is fair, I would love to hear why so I can consider their points and adjust my own thoughts if need be. What have alliance players done to deserve an advantage over players who are supposedly weaker than them already? Moreover, what would be the point of such an advantage? I'm not sure.

I know that the alliance members and Manu aren't treating it like a serious issue. I don't know about normal players, and all I want is confirmation or disagreement, some expression about this topic, from them. I actually benefit from the way things are right now, so it's not like I mind personally if no one cares; I only wonder if anyone does care.

Of course, my suggestions wouldn't work with guild-type alliances which have a variety of players. The current system is good enough for them, I think.

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I'm a little conflicted about the alliance "bug" thing. Personally I think it's highly unfair that as a member of an alliance/guild I can attack someone every 8 minutes, but they have to wait an hour between attacks. I used this to great advantage toward the end of the heads contest, but it was too late to catch up and I didn't really have enough time to devote to it. I like having the advantage, but that said, I think only Alliance vs Alliance attacks should take 1 hour, or should even be reduced to something like 30 minutes or something. Alliance vs non-alliance combat should have the 8 minute timer. I HATE Glai's idea that alliance members should have to wait 1 hour between attacks on everyone. That could be okay for MP5 when you don't have any higher level to advance for, but I'm MP4 and I can tell you that an hour between attacks would be an awful drag on advancement. I do think the alliance vs alliance combat needs a longer limit than 8 minutes because of the ability for alliance members to be able to attack across MP levels. If I were MP3 in a guild and some MP5 decided they wanted to pick on me every 8 minutes, I'd be pretty pissed. It seems that the whole system is in a state of significant development/refinement, so I'm pretty sure all of this will get better, but it cetainly doesn't work quite right the way it is.

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I'm a little conflicted about the alliance "bug" thing . . . I HATE Glai's idea that alliance members should have to wait 1 hour between attacks on everyone. That could be okay for MP5 when you don't have any higher level to advance for, but I'm MP4 and I can tell you that an hour between attacks would be an awful drag on advancement. I do think the alliance vs alliance combat needs a longer limit than 8 minutes because of the ability for alliance members to be able to attack across MP levels. If I were MP3 in a guild and some MP5 decided they wanted to pick on me every 8 minutes, I'd be pretty pissed.

"Of course, my suggestions wouldn't work with guild-type alliances which have a variety of players," in my earlier post. I meant that to mean that my suggestions were only for military alliances.

There are hardly any mp4s, let alone mp3s (is Bad Sun Bath still in Necro-alliance?) in military alliances; it would be a bit illogical for that as it is even now. Personally, I think players should be prepared to sacrifice some advancement in they're going to get involved with alliances no matter what the type, but what would you think of my suggestion if it only applied to military alliances?

About the post after that, the one about the Artisans alliance, most alliances have made a separate topic, so it's easier to find. I split your post into another topic; I hope you don't mind.

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About the post after that, the one about the Artisans alliance, most alliances have made a separate topic, so it's easier to find. I split your post into another topic; I hope you don't mind.

You didn't need to, there already was one. I just wanted to post the info here so people could find it in the main topic

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Huh, I checked and didn't see one.. but if there is, I'll just edit your last post to have the same information and delete the split topic. Can I have a link?

Do you mean the one with all the people applying to join? I considered that another topic because it's specifically for applications and doesn't have the information in the format that the others used. But if you don't want two topics about the guild, that's fine.

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Huh, I checked and didn't see one.. but if there is, I'll just edit your last post to have the same information and delete the split topic. Can I have a link?

Do you mean the one with all the people applying to join? I considered that another topic because it's specifically for applications and doesn't have the information in the format that the others used. But if you don't want two topics about the guild, that's fine.

Yeah, let's keep it one topic. That other one is still in use because we're still looking for people, and I think it works as the catch-all for the guild. Is there a way to make the new post with the info in the correct format the new first post?

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Mmf... that would be tough. I could merge the two topics, but it would sort the posts in chronological order. What we could do is sacrifice one of your older posts (posted before the first post of the recruiting topic): delete what it has, edit it to have the formatted information and then move that post into the topic so it'll become the first. Well, it should work in theory. I tested it out with one of my posts.

lol n_n; If you're not too attached to the idea of having separate posts, you can just edit the first post to have the formatted information. Either way isn't too much trouble for me, so whatever you'd prefer.

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About the allowed attack interval difference between alliance members and normal players, I only think it's 'fair' in a sense that those alliance members have earned it, but otherwise I don't think it's 'fair' because it gives advantage to the (mostly) already strong people, and also because this advantage doesn't look intentional but seem like a side effect of an easy way to implement it.

What I mean is, since this restriction is supposed to prevent alliances from attacking each other too often, it should only apply between people who are in alliances, not between alliance members and anyone else, so I agree with GlorDamar's suggestion that allowed attack intervals should be:

- Normal player attacking normal player = 8 minutes (now = 8 minutes)

- Alliance member attacking normal player = 8 minutes (now = 8 minutes)

- Normal player attacking alliance member = 8 minutes (now = 1 hour)

- Alliance member attacking alliance member = 1 hour (now = 1 hour)

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Mmf... that would be tough. I could merge the two topics, but it would sort the posts in chronological order. What we could do is sacrifice one of your older posts (posted before the first post of the recruiting topic): delete what it has, edit it to have the formatted information and then move that post into the topic so it'll become the first. Well, it should work in theory. I tested it out with one of my posts.

lol n_n; If you're not too attached to the idea of having separate posts, you can just edit the first post to have the formatted information. Either way isn't too much trouble for me, so whatever you'd prefer.

Oh, yeah, I'll do the edit thing... that's a good idea. After I do that I'll let you know and you can nuke the old one.

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Gameplay was divided further between alliance members and non-allied players.

Allied and non-allied member now depend on different counters and restrictions for attacking.

Honor remains standard for non-allied members (nothing changes). Alliance members now have a separate counter called Loyalty/Prestige. The "Attack this player for honor" box has been changed to "Attack for Loyalty" and the won fights of alliance members will increase their alliance loyalty/prestige.

If a member leaves an alliance, his counter returns to honor and all honor based restriction and the 'game fights win/loss balance' applies again.

Gameplay changes for alliance members only:

- every won fight gives you zero or positive loyalty points, zero for fights with little vitality involves, more for tougher fights.

- Loyalty reward is based on total experience (lost vitality) the battle gives and is divided in stages.

- Members can attack without honor/loyalty restriction, everybody can attack everybody, good for some bad for others, the alliance world is a world for the toughest players around.

- Because of the lack of any restriction preventing players from attacking each other, the time between fights against the same player has been increased to 3 hours.

- No loyalty reward for successfully defending from an attack.

- Members receive a Loyalty penalty of 1 point for losing a fight

Technically, I'm not sure the restriction is meant to prevent alliances from attacking each other only, but maybe to prevent alliance members from attacking normal players as well. This quote is from a long time ago (disclaimer: I edited out some awkward breaks and information not pertaining to this post), and obviously some things have changed, although I'm not sure which and to what extent. However, I sort of think the system was meant to be more or less similar.

I don't know if the honor penalty for alliance members has been fixed yet or not (haven't been actually playing for a while) but I believe that Manu indicated alliance members aren't supposed to lose/gain honor even when fighting normal players. The reason Manu listed for the extended time restriction when alliances were first implemented was the lack of honor(/loyalty?) penalty, so if that remains the reason, then logically the extended time restriction should apply when fighting normal players as well. I know meiche thought it was based on the loyalty thing, but I don't know where she got that idea.

It all gets mixed up in my head; this is all my own guesswork, when there really isn't anything else to base my responses on. It seems like there are a lot of bugs concerning alliances, but we can't really be sure when there is no official, up-to-date information about how alliances are supposed to work. Like Glor, I expect things to get sorted out eventually, but I especially hope the time restrictions related to attacking alliance members changes soon if other players are thinking about it the same way as I.

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