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The funny thing is Mur already has my address and has sent stuff to me (Although iv moved since then and dont send me stuff to the old address). Im playing devils advocate here, I don't necessarily agree dont want you to have my address, but I completely disagree with your high handed attitude and rudeness.

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It took me two hours to try and come up with a way of expressing the following without making an ass out of myself. I've probably failed.


The discussion on the two relevant threads is on the verge of shifting to be one and the same. In a sense, it was always one and the same, and one in the same with countless others, and most know that well enough, even as we continue to avoid facing it for what it is as though it were the Black Death.


Contained, it has become a discussion over whether or not titles should come at the exclusion of tags. Much more so, however, it is an evident reiteration of the arguments contained within http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/14462-worst-thing-about-mur/ and a number of other such occasions.


As I see it, that kind of dialogue has consistently proved to be quite the frustrating and fruitless experience:


A. MD is Mur's legal property and creation - that is an innate source of reverential deference, even it goes unannounced - though I've never seen that used as an argument by Mur. It is my understanding that, if anything, Mur is more likely to leave than to wield such as an argument himself.


B. Most of MD isn't wary of Mur retaliating against them. Most of MD is wary of hurting or offending Mur, because they value him and wish for him to remain around.


C. There can be no proper dialogue under emotional duress. Every time someone claims to be feeling neglected, or pressured to leave, over a discussion, they are effectively burying the entire conversation.


D. Mur's creative talents are many. His managerial talents, on the other hand, are tentative at best.


E. Mur prioritizes symbolism. Many see it as impractical. It is also my understanding that these two perspectives may, at times, prove irreconcilable.


F. Mur can be arbitrary and whimsical. That unavoidably leads to conflict, whether moral or strategic. The matter of privacy is an example of the earlier. The freezing of the tags is an example of the later.


Mur, the vast majority of MD appreciates that you have not capitalized on A in the past, and B is there in the first place because, even were you to say otherwise, most care; though they will not always agree with your decisions, players expect and encourage you to take the mantles of D and E within MD.


C is not solely about you, C is both the frailty of those with a weak self-image and the tool of those habituated to evading accountability by using other's emotional ties as a weapon, presenting their well-being as a hostage; that does not mean they necessarily understand what they are doing.


Can you, or even should you ever try and wholly circumvent the behavior denoted in F? Is that mentality unsustainable, or can everything keep going as is? I don't have the answer. But, unless you are perfectly content with this recurring situation, and I don't believe you are, there is some merit in reflecting upon it.


What I can already tell you, however, is that, from our own perspective, leaving is among the worst answers you can possibly come up with.


Were you wholly arbitrary, the answer would be an easy one: MD is your creation.


Were you unappreciated or undesired, likewise: leave us be.


Were you a fool, all the more so: leave him be.


The answer, alas, is not an easy or short one, and it cannot be handed down to you, unless you'd rather merely have another's.


Minor edit: typo corrected, clarification added to A.

Edited by Azthor
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This seems like a somewhat arbitrary discussion...


Most people, by the time they have made enough of an impact to get a tag are emotionally invested in MD. By proxy, they have an investment and trust in the developer.


Most people at one time or another will buy something online. When they do, they usually have some trust in the company they use, and they have no issue handing over their address.


There are really simple solutions to this issue too, but first you have to decide if you feel the titles have to have associated documents.Here's a couple:


--Yes, then either you agree to the title and give an address, or you don't get the title. (I like this option)

--No, then it can be a special "commission your title certificate" wish shop or shop item that appears once a title is associated to you, (in the shop way, you also pay for the shipping costs, which solves that argument too) No document gets created until the order is put through. (This is more new school automated MD...which is one of the reasons I don't really play anymore)



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i might seem rude as you say chew, because its very time consuming and annoying to hear theoretical problems, that have no base in reality. Dark Demon represents a _REAL_ situation and an example to analyze, while you on the other hand, don't have a real problem, because as you said you already received things from me, and i am sure that if you really want to keep your new address hidden, you could just let me send stuff to the old one.


I am not reacting nice to things that are meant mainly to be a time waster and are not actual problems. I am sure there are other people that have actual problems regarding privacy, but don't talk in their name, let them speak if they consider...and when they do , i expect them to present actual details to help find a solution not just to discuss the theoretical problem of providing their address. 


99% of the people that complain about privacy, provide their address to shops and have enough info about them online, but they complain about privacy just as a concept. I simply don't have the nerves to discuss concepts now when i am trying to find actual solutions.


taken YOUR case, i find it kind of very rude to make such a fuss about not wanting me to know your address, considering we know eachother for such a long time and i trust you both with my address and full md server access.



So far, unless i missed something, i see only two people complain about the shipping, one is DD and one is you. The first has a valid point, but if he is willing to, there are solutions to that (and i could investigate more what solutions are there depending on country, if he can't do that himself). You on the other hand, simply complain out of principle.


Btw..for cerain countries there is a possiblity to send a letter via a people transport company, just leave it with the driver and give him somethign for the effort, then the other person should wait at a precise time and date in the station to pick it up. This method is stealth enough for spies.


Of course i get angry..when i see such lack of trust from people i trust so much and when people like you chewy, treat me as if i am some danger. I know this is not what you probably mean to do, but this happens if you talk concept instead of actual case. Leave those that have the issues discuss the actual issues.

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md being "mine" has absolutely nothing to do with anything discussed in here. ..and i don't think i ever used or ever will use such an argument.

Md is nothing without its players, and the players belong only to themselves.


I am focused on the symbolic part, and i am glad that i am, because so few can replace that part.

I am a total disaster when it comes to managing skills. Gladly md evolved enough to have other people deal with stuff i always failed to do right. 

When I implement a new thing, such as these titles, I try to do my best to see those things integrated, at all cost, because i am fully aware of the changes they will cause both socially and technically. Sometimes the changes i aim at are not directly related to the implemented features, but appear as side-effects of these features.


Imagine people would have a word to say for every new law.ld be chaos, because there will always be pro & contra voices to everything. In MD i act as a dictator when it comes to concept changes/improvements and i try to let things more flexible through public debates and council decisions when the changes are not core changing.


Even if these titles look like something optional and non-essential, i am sure their long time importance is crucial to keep md values intact, especially with the plans to make it more dynamic and hierarchy orientated in Autumn2050


i can only hope i will be able to keep them going forever, and to be able to keep up with the additional stress...but in case it will prove too much for me, i have a backup plan :) no need to discuss it now anyway.



(ps:I generally like structured discussions like your puzzle reply there, but this time i find it a bit hard to follow :) no offense) 

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I did not state my entire story.


Because it is so difficult for one to reach me, I'd prefer it if I didn't get money spent on to get one sent to me in the first place. Its not that I don't like the idea of titles and such, its just that I actually prefer as a person not to receive one because of my current situation. I will not be straightforward and say: I dont want the title, because I do, but I know I cant get one as of now (again, not because its impossible, but because of the reason stated above), and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect my sentiment.

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well, you want them, you can't get them however,...so what i can do is to do everything possible to help you get them, and in this case this means wait till you will be able to receive them, is that right? I guess a similar case would be for anyone moving homes or on a very long trip, or in army, or ..jail. So..how long do you think till you will be able to receive the letter? 

Does anyone think i should talk more about what to do when the awarded person does not want a title doc? As i see it now this equal to not wanting the title so its easy to deal with.

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well, you want them, you can't get them however,...so what i can do is to do everything possible to help you get them, and in this case this means wait till you will be able to receive them, is that right? I guess a similar case would be for anyone moving homes or on a very long trip, or in army, or ..jail. So..how long do you think till you will be able to receive the letter? 

Does anyone think i should talk more about what to do when the awarded person does not want a title doc? As i see it now this equal to not wanting the title so its easy to deal with.


I meant that I would want them if I could get them without any trouble, but since it is difficult I prefer not to want one. So yes, you can treat my case similar to anyone who doesn't want a title doc

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sounds interesting, but it would imply unneeded shipping costs...


That is the only worry I have. Although it would be fitting for the post man to hold them considering his role is now going to be to manage the title docs when it comes to actual money we need to keep in mind all costs incurred from point to point. If somebody is going to hold it it should be somebody close to mur (both in location and as a friend) unless the postman somebody else is willing to pay the costs to hold them because it is an additional point which shout not be required.

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