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CoE Resurrection - Still possible?


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So the GotR leaders are ok with its most recent member openly stating that they are ready to ditch GOTR if another alliance is given into their hands? Plenty loyalty there... I believe DD wasnt treated that kindly when he wanted to bring back CoE... Partiality? PR? No standards? What is it this time?

 

To clarify. Back when DD started talking about reviving CoE I was GotR leader and DD had my support up until the point when he said that he didn't want to be a part of CoE. He wated to revive it but thee still were no members, let alone leader to give the alliance to. Also DD's loyaty to GotR was never doubted because of that. His plan of reviving CoE failed mostly because of 2 things: 1. it was flawed and 2. DD and Tarq "did not hit it off".

There was no partiality then, at least not from my side as a GotR leader.

 

I can't say about situation now. I have seldom visited the realm for more than few moments in past few months and I don't follow any politics now.

 

edit:

ps.

Shouldn't this topic be more about how/why/why not revive CoE now instead of remembering the problems that made it's revival a failure in the past?

Just saying.

Edited by Shemhazaj
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What's wrong with that? If you know how and why it failed first time it helps you to prevent same mistake again.

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself. As well as mistakes. In my experience with MD, people don't really learn from other's mistakes but from their own. If they hit the wall themselves, they will know. If somebody else hits the wall that somebody will be: laughed at/pitied/etc/etc  and soon the reason as to WHY the wall was hit it will forgotten. They will however remember the wall and start whining :D

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Sigh... I feel I should say something here...

 

Back when I tried was different from this since firstly I didn't want to join CoE and secondly I wanted to purely revive it - and do nothing more. I wanted Tarq and Amoran to come back and lead the alliance. I didnt know much about the alliance to be honest... my purpose was solely to increase activity and, at that time, prove myself to Lorerootians that I'd be loyal.

 

A great many mistook me, or as I saw, for being the person to wanted to "be given" CoE, or at least be part of it.

 

What hurt me very much at that point was the fact that I knew I didnt know my way around things as well as I'd have liked, still I continued, but people thought of me as a failure for that rather than helping me. Of course, it did fail after all and like dst said... I hit the wall. Hard.

 

All I can hope for is that Aeo's case doesnt turn out the same way.

Edited by DARK DEMON
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Hmm.

@ dst -Well, most of you are correct in your concerns. Dst is right - I might end up banging my head against the wall that others hit. Maybe I'll be strong enough to knock it down, maybe not. Regardless, I'm still willing to try.

 

@ Shem - I do not mind talking about why CoE failed in the past. While it is true, if I think back to what dst said, I may end up repeating it, I wish to have knowledge of it so that I can do my best to avoid it. If I don't see the tree in front of me, I cannot hope to steer clear of it.

 

@ BFH - Yes, if there is one thing that concerns me a tiny bit at the moment is the number of players around in MD right now. With the risk of being rudely honest, however, I will say that I have found, so far, about 3 players interested in joining my cause. I will not name them just yet. I do not see why some alliances would be allowed to exist with just 3 members when I do not ever see them doing anything related to their role (I may just be online at the wrong time, however) while CoE should be dismissed because of lack of numbers throughout MD.

Again, I agree with what you said, to an extent. There are few players left and it will be a challenge to gather a large number of players for CoE. Nevertheless, I believe I am more than capable of gathering enough to support the alliance until the player base enlarges.

As for the "starting wars and plots" part... If I announced all of that publicly, it would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? 

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@BFH:

 

I disagree with some of your points.

 

I would love to see lands more inclusive. They should treat new players as part of them, without any hard requirements.

 

The lands are already very open to new members, especially when it comes to citizenship.

Of what high requirements are you speaking of? I can only speak in the name of Marind Bell, although I'm pretty sure it's relatively the same case with other mainlands as well - it's quite easy to obtain a citizenship, all you need to do is get to know someone, introduce yourself, talk a bit so others know you're alive. If you do all that, you're basically in, unless you have a very different character than the wider system of values of the land/group of people in it.

 

 

They [kings] should be searching for new players for their lands, they should be hunting for them since they begin the game.

 

I disagree on many levels:

- Propaganda should not be enforced, players should develop a bit and then make an independent decision where to join. Let's just look at Necrovion, with their clever socializing and creation of image, they managed to get a lot of 'cool' people. Many of them don't really feel like being truely Necrovian (intuitively), no?

Syrian, the great mp6, helper, very productive member of society, I don't see what's so Necrovion about her (we didn't talk a lot in truth, but I'm talking about the influence/aura of her personality that touched me as well).

- We don't have people in the first place to inflict propaganda on!

 

We need more spice in the game, something crazy happening. Lands should compete to see which can do x or y thing better, start a war or just do something to make people interested in them.

 

I agree, but it's not something upon kings to do. We can't create fake reasons to compete in. Well, we can, but it won't be "it". The game, at the moment, lacks strategic points to compete about, except in some kind of prestige "how many adept questers/fighters/researchers you have", etc.

We are all part of the community, let's work together. I know it's attractive to point fingers at someone, on paper, at the top, and conclude that it is all their fault we're not succeeding, but I think it is a bit surficial.

There have been ideas like restoring Torch competition in favor of that competitive spirit, let's bring out some new, not that hard to impement/code ideas, suggest things you want to see happening.

Consider that not all leaders of the lands were chosen to be charismatic visionaires that can make everything out of nothing, some were chosen simply so that their land does not fall into a disadvantage by not having a leader (lack of representative with the Council, lack of monarch tools, etc. = lot's of disadvantages).

 

 

 

I've been king for some 6-7 months already. Do you realize how little to no requests for roles I've received, even though it is my strong wish to help people on that matter?

I remember when I was a younger player, getting a mere tag was making you the happiest man in the world. Now nobody cares.

Do you really think a king can do much when a large part of the realm does not feel like playing the game anymore?

 

You have a lot of players that already established their roles, they did not have problems integrating into the society, yet still you don't feel them having fun.

 

This is a game, we should do what we feel like doing, focus on that, having fun, not "maintaining" something. There's something very wrong in the perception we have about this site.

 

Not all of us have much free time, or are too distracted by RL thoughts to 'slip in' into this wonderful world truely, but let's not encourage dispiritedness, lead by your own example (people), be around, have fun, talk with people, try to picture what would they like to do and see if your interests are similar. Understand that the game will shape per our needs, we will not shape ourselves (completely) as per its needs - this is not something said egoistically, it's how the game evolved up till now.

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@ BFH - Yes, if there is one thing that concerns me a tiny bit at the moment is the number of players around in MD right now. With the risk of being rudely honest, however, I will say that I have found, so far, about 3 players interested in joining my cause. I will not name them just yet. I do not see why some alliances would be allowed to exist with just 3 members when I do not ever see them doing anything related to their role (I may just be online at the wrong time, however) while CoE should be dismissed because of lack of numbers throughout MD.

Again, I agree with what you said, to an extent. There are few players left and it will be a challenge to gather a large number of players for CoE. Nevertheless, I believe I am more than capable of gathering enough to support the alliance until the player base enlarges.

As for the "starting wars and plots" part... If I announced all of that publicly, it would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? 

 

Don't get me wrong, I always support innovation and efforts to try getting things better, but I pointed what I think is a bigger problem in MD and that is the lack of interest in players, something that can be easily changed by Kings and Land Leaders, but so far it is not happening and that makes me angry. I'm not against CoE reinstitution, but if it is to happen it shouldn't become an alliance without a purpose and one that would become boring for the people in. It should head precisely towards activity and innovation for MD.

 

 

@BFH, considering your #2 point.

 

In the spirit of progress shouldn't we let the old vegetative alliances that don't contribute to community in any way to die out in favor of new ones that spark new things to happen?

 

Yes. But this wouldn't be necessary if their rulers (Kings and land Leaders) revive alliances with new purposes and ideals.

 

 

@BFH:

 

I disagree with some of your points.

 

 

The lands are already very open to new members, especially when it comes to citizenship.

Of what high requirements are you speaking of? I can only speak in the name of Marind Bell, although I'm pretty sure it's relatively the same case with other mainlands as well - it's quite easy to obtain a citizenship, all you need to do is get to know someone, introduce yourself, talk a bit so others know you're alive. If you do all that, you're basically in, unless you have a very different character than the wider system of values of the land/group of people in it.

 

If I took what you said correctly, I must agree that Chew's citizenship system was one of the best things that could have happened to MD as it precisely helps younger players getting into a land without much effort. However, I'm not actually refering to that. Tell me, to whom will new players speak if there's not enough activity in lands, if they are not beign introduced to lands since they begin? what would incentivize a new player to give the first step? Why they should give the first step and not the land show interest in citizens? What's the purpose of a land without citizens? I can continue with such questions as I made them to myself several times...

Certainly, I still believe that Kings and Land Rulers should make it easier to young players to get in. They should cautivate players, make them interested in lands, offer them something. Think of it the following way, your land is a product and you should think in a way to sell it. You could always leave your product in top of a table and let people discover it by themselves (current system) or you could go to the people and sell the product to them in a personalized way (optimal system). Now get my point?

 

 

I disagree on many levels:

- Propaganda should not be enforced, players should develop a bit and then make an independent decision where to join. Let's just look at Necrovion, with their clever socializing and creation of image, they managed to get a lot of 'cool' people. Many of them don't really feel like being truely Necrovian (intuitively), no?

Syrian, the great mp6, helper, very productive member of society, I don't see what's so Necrovion about her (we didn't talk a lot in truth, but I'm talking about the influence/aura of her personality that touched me as well).

- We don't have people in the first place to inflict propaganda on!

Ohh but you are looking at the smaller picture, not to mention that I strongly disagree with the no propaganda thing.

First, with propaganda people will start feeling wanted, they will start feeling important. They will know that the game is much more than what it appears. They will wonder what happens next and they will stay to find out.

 

If you see the smaller picture you might say that Necrovion has a few citizens that doesn't there. However, look at the bigger picture, with the propaganda Necrovion did back then people got interested in the land and nowadays you can see that there are players that were affected by that propaganda that are still active. Activity is what we want, that;s the bigger picture. The more people we get involved, the best the game becomes.

 

Propaganda doesn't affect the freewill of players, that's a lol, in MD players can change of lands, alliances, or move to any place they like. Isn;t like you are stuck with the same land forever :P

 

 

I agree, but it's not something upon kings to do. We can't create fake reasons to compete in. Well, we can, but it won't be "it". The game, at the moment, lacks strategic points to compete about, except in some kind of prestige "how many adept questers/fighters/researchers you have", etc.

We are all part of the community, let's work together. I know it's attractive to point fingers at someone, on paper, at the top, and conclude that it is all their fault we're not succeeding, but I think it is a bit surficial.

There have been ideas like restoring Torch competition in favor of that competitive spirit, let's bring out some new, not that hard to impement/code ideas, suggest things you want to see happening.

Consider that not all leaders of the lands were chosen to be charismatic visionaires that can make everything out of nothing, some were chosen simply so that their land does not fall into a disadvantage by not having a leader (lack of representative with the Council, lack of monarch tools, etc. = lot's of disadvantages).

Agree of the work together part etc.

 

So why I point Kings and Land leaders. Well simple, Kings and Land Leaders are the people that can potentially make council, developers, and Mur create tools and stuff for a better MD. Currently I've seen no active efforts from Kings towards that. They are known and have power, but they dont use it.

 

I'll put myself as example. As a simple individual, partially unknown in MD, I started my festivals and events out of nowhere requesting people sponsorhip, moving around with the small tools I had, (mp6 and LHO by that time) With my effort what started as a small initiative and became somewhat known. Eventually I requested council and Mur tools that would help me organize better events. Nowadays, I have tools and spells that no other players in MD have. Tools that serve to organize any sort of events and contribute to a better MD.

 

Now, I accomplished that without being known, without possesing any power or status. What Kings with their power and status have accomplished? (I speak generally as I'm trying to get you, and the other Kings aware that they can make MD move foward and that there's much more you can do, besides diplomacy)

 

 

I've been king for some 6-7 months already. Do you realize how little to no requests for roles I've received, even though it is my strong wish to help people on that matter?

I remember when I was a younger player, getting a mere tag was making you the happiest man in the world. Now nobody cares.

Do you really think a king can do much when a large part of the realm does not feel like playing the game anymore?

 

You have a lot of players that already established their roles, they did not have problems integrating into the society, yet still you don't feel them having fun.

 

This is a game, we should do what we feel like doing, focus on that, having fun, not "maintaining" something. There's something very wrong in the perception we have about this site.

 

Not all of us have much free time, or are too distracted by RL thoughts to 'slip in' into this wonderful world truely, but let's not encourage dispiritedness, lead by your own example (people), be around, have fun, talk with people, try to picture what would they like to do and see if your interests are similar. Understand that the game will shape per our needs, we will not shape ourselves (completely) as per its needs - this is not something said egoistically, it's how the game evolved up till now.

I mostly agree with this, except that as I've pointed out kings can do much more.

 

We all have RL stuff to do, but lets make worth the time we spend in MD.

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BFH, you are speaking like we have 50 non-aligned players doing nothing because of lands lack of marketing, and all the kings need to do is reach out for them, but I'll try to respond to your statements.

 

If I took what you said correctly, I must agree that Chew's citizenship system was one of the best things that could have happened to MD as it precisely helps younger players getting into a land without much effort. 

 

 


 

I wasn't talking about the voting system. The feature is indeed very good to be present - the problem that existed before was that several lands were without a leader, and they didn't have a mechanism to make someone their citizen, without inviting them into an ally.

Those votings are very hard to succeed because you have to 'alarm' the whole populace of the land to vote for you, and are now (in general) secondary towards the kingship tools.

 

Tell me, to whom will new players speak if there's not enough activity in lands, if they are not beign introduced to lands since they begin? what would incentivize a new player to give the first step? Why they should give the first step and not the land show interest in citizens?

 

 

People start the game, get to know how it works, meet people and talk, they get informed of the world and learn more. I wouldn't like for someone to force their opinion on me in that stage, first lead me to knowledge and then let me decide on my own.

Options are numerous, whether you wish to enquire about a land, or you wish to directly apply to join.

If you're saying (and I think you are) that a new player has no motivation to join a land, unless someone urges him to join one, then you're saying MD is not a game, you're forcing someone play it, that's the wrong approach if you're keen on making MD survive.

 

My opinion evolved, when it comes to recruiting players, from principle of entropy towards principle of syntropy. You should not look at things from the perspective of your faction, you should analyse the player and guide (advise) him towards a place where he would be most comfortable to progress as a MD individual.

If you sway them to join your side, you have to maintain their interest, and (there's a chance) you create some kind of a pressure in them, they must feel free. Continuing on this part:

 

Propaganda doesn't affect the freewill of players, that's a lol, in MD players can change of lands, alliances, or move to any place they like. Isn;t like you are stuck with the same land forever

 

 

It does. If you succeed in your attempt to make that player join you, they become attached, they don't want to betray you, they want to be honorable, etc, and it takes extra effort for them to realize they are not comfortable where they are and to make that decision to leave, it's not that simple.

If you sway them to you, you have to be there for them 100% for a considerable amount of time until they truely become comfortable and treat your faction as a home. You are responsible for them. If something happens to you in that transition period, they become very vulnerable and prone to abandoning MD.

I have experience with this because, other than leading MB, I also lead Savelites for a year with which I was forced to start with scratch and make it an alliance of a dozen people.

Aggressive recruiting is anti-MD, and only works in the short-term.

 

First, with propaganda people will start feeling wanted, they will start feeling important. They will know that the game is much more than what it appears. They will wonder what happens next and they will stay to find out.

 

 

Yep, they will feel more important than your offer and go for the ones that are not trying to recruit them :))

Mur played with concept of rare throughout the whole evolution of the game, take a look on how that worked nicely in some situations, how insignificant creatures have extraordinary value because they are hard to get, and how that value reduces once they become less rare. Apply the same towards availability of the lands.

 

Appreciating people is good, but don't push it and be annoying, we go back to that "aggressive recruiting is anti-MD".

 

For example, it's noticeable opinion of some younger players that MB is lame because joining it is easy to do, not because of our aggressive recruitment, because there wasn't one as such, but because of our known welcoming nature and openess of the land.

Imagine if we added that "join us, join us" shouting, they would run away like from a plague.

 

Make the game 'fun' by default, lands will come easy afterwards as a flavour. Joining lands can't be the reason MD is played, especially when there's no strategical competition between them.

 

MD (at the moment) is all about patience, and you're proposing rushing players into something.

They can talk with people, they can read announcements, read forum, adapt into the world for a month before pondering upon which land to join. If they are unable to do that, then they are not for MD, remember Mur saying MD is a filter.

 

 

So why I point Kings and Land leaders. Well simple, Kings and Land Leaders are the people that can potentially make council, developers, and Mur create tools and stuff for a better MD.

 

 

You are pointing out the power of 'bribe', and I pointed it out in my previous post that 'feature' is no longer exploitable, because of the fall in rarity of such bribes. There are too few of us in MD at the moment, and it is the policy of the game to be more welcoming towards rewards (in wider sense) in comparison with the older times, which stimulates indolence in some cases, but then, the game has no option because no encouragment in the form of awards kills the little will that remained, it's a paradox that can only be solved with influx of many new people, or by principle of syntropy, which would consist of people having fun "by default" perpetually.

 

 

 

I'll put myself as example. As a simple individual, partially unknown in MD, I started my festivals and events out of nowhere requesting people sponsorhip, moving around with the small tools I had, (mp6 and LHO by that time) With my effort what started as a small initiative and became somewhat known. Eventually I requested council and Mur tools that would help me organize better events. Nowadays, I have tools and spells that no other players in MD have. Tools that serve to organize any sort of events and contribute to a better MD.

 

Now, I accomplished that without being known, without possesing any power or status. What Kings with their power and status have accomplished? (I speak generally as I'm trying to get you, and the other Kings aware that they can make MD move foward and that there's much more you can do, besides diplomacy)

 

 

Now you're known and powerful, and by your logic, you can do your job 10x better, but you seemed to have stopped.

Your accomplishments are impressive, but I'm not sure what do you want to say with this - you wish to be a king and try it out?

Are you asking why isn't everyone as productive as you?

This is a bit of a philosophical question - are kings supposed to create action or stir it (the existing one) for the good of their realm?

They should respond to the situation actually, and the situation is that we have a shortage of players, and that people are hard to motivate nowdays to do anything (there was a recent increase in activity which makes me happy, but let's be skeptical).

Situations can be created, but you can't expect that of people, this is a blessing and a rare thing.

 

You were the master advertiser, and we are in shortage of people, maybe I should hate you the way you hate kings? :D

(In truth, I value your work, and it is known how important your work is, but I wanted to make a point)

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Sorry for not replying to the other stuff I'm too busy to do a full and appropiate reply in regards to finding a good solution for our current MD status.

 


Now you're known and powerful, and by your logic, you can do your job 10x better, but you seemed to have stopped.

Your accomplishments are impressive, but I'm not sure what do you want to say with this - you wish to be a king and try it out?

 

 

Don't get me wrong Rhaegar and don't take it personal. I'm angry with Kings just because I see no initiative from them, not because I can do X or Y things better :P Actually, I strongly believe that Kings can do better than what they are doing currently. You as a collective can do what I've done better.

 

I stopped, that's true. Mur and Council know the reasons, that's not for me to disclose.

 

You were the master advertiser, and we are in shortage of people, maybe I should hate you the way you hate kings? :D

(In truth, I value your work, and it is known how important your work is, but I wanted to make a point)

 

I've had huge discussions with Mur regarding advertising and major issues the game have. He is aware of them, he recognized many of the issues, but unfortunately none has been addressed. Perhaps his plan for 2050 is the project that will fix multiple of the issues pointed out, but that will progress slowly and until it is finished the solution to MD status isn't agressive advertising but simple things done inside the game to make it move foward even while it have multiple issues, and I believe Kings have that power :P

 

So the solutions, that I as advertiser have proposed are ones that will take time to implement, mainly because Chew is the only one actively working with code. But we need short time solutions, and we shouldn''t expect Council to do all. So, the next line that follows are Kings and land Rulers., and I still believe you as Kings doesn't understand the Power that you guys have to request small things that can do big changes to be done.

 

Aside that, problem with my MD role is that you know 0.01% of the work I did and still do :P So eventhou if you hate me because of what you see that I do, I for a chance know that you wouldn't hate me if you knew what I do, but that, should stay on the background and I'm not willing to share it :P
(Still love you Rhaehar :P hahah)

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I'll 'apologize' for the incoming short reply as well (but I think the general public will be grateful :D).

 

I didn't take it personal at all, you still have the same amount of (positive) rep points in my head system, I felt I needed to respond because you were speaking about inactiveness of monarchs, of which I am one, and you received more than a dozen reputation points for that, meaning a solid proportion of the community thinks so too.

 

I do agree that (except Azull) most leaders seem inactive in some percentage, I disagree that the solution to the problem is annoying new players, what I think should be done is just "playing the game". Be there online and active more than others, encourage conversations, encourage activities in general, because that's what the game lacks lately, not because it's something the kings should do by default.

If there were enough of activity in people, a king could stay in a sanctuary idling 90% of the time and just respond to requests from citizens, judging and such.

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Don't get me wrong Rhaegar and don't take it personal. I'm angry with Kings just because I see no initiative from them, not because I can do X or Y things better :P Actually, I strongly believe that Kings can do better than what they are doing currently. You as a collective can do what I've done better.

 

I and most probably council agree with this viewpoint. When was the last time a King came to be to request a power, a tool, anything? The answer is never. They have been given the power to run a land, request things, and iv literally seen none of them come to (ab)use this power.

 

Come with me with a request for coding and a reason, if the reason if good then you can have it.

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And what does that tell you Chewy?

Nothing is going on for the need to arise to make requests. It's a reflection of the general situation, the kings are not the problem, they are just the symptoms.

You were a king for a good while as well, so I'm sure you're familiar with what I'm saying.

 

There's also a thing how MD looks at things. There's been a "school-of-thought" when you wish to increase activity, (try to) bribe people to make quests and events.

That's an example of how principle of entropy is failing us here. When amount of energy goes critically low, we try to do extraordinary effort to push that amount of energy only a bit up with a quest or two. Open up the treasury, use the big guns, gamble everything on that new quest that will solve everything - but the intended quest/event doesn't happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't solve everything.

 

Let's abandon that "pressuring" attitude, "maintaining" quest quotas, it's all very creative-killing.

We need a good ambient, people hang out, they feel good with each other, they play in all sorts of ways (discuss research, do some combo training, etc.) and in those moments ideas arise and you will get your requests and activity.

Good ambient for the principle of syntropy to take place.

 

In general and @ nobody in particular:

Kings lead their lands, every land is specific in nature, this is not a team white, team black, team orange and team green game where you need to get as many people as you can and beat all the others.

There are LHOs to help newbs, there are advertisers to bring the people in the game.

If a land doesn't function with its leader, its citizens will find the way to change him or at least make the world know how they are unsatisfied, it's easy 'fixing stuff' after that. If the whole land is a mess, then start a population transplantation and make it the way you want it to be, in the meantime, fight your own battles and do your own contribution where you can for the progress of the game. BFH for example is a GG citizen, that wasn't around for a while, and he for sure doesn't know what's the situation in MB, or in NV, or as such.

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen
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i think the talk about kings and leader deserves to be it's own topic. it's important stuff to talk about and i admit it's quite interesting to read, but it doesn't really have any connection to what this was originally about (the ressurection of CoE).

 

Agree, I will not reply here further conserning Kings or whatever.

Edited by BFH
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I suppose so. But I remember others doing the same and getting a rebuttal.

There is difference between asking for it to be closed and backseat modding, which you are doing Curi, by telling him what he can and cannot do on the forum. Talk to the mods if you think someone is backseat modding and dont do it yourself.

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