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I didn't state it cause I feel it's offtopic. I was to start it out this discussion would delve that way, something this topic isn't meant to. Again I don't see why it's so important for you people that I denounce my view? I've right to my opinion.

 

I have your very own words Ailith. I spoke my opinion, also opinion doesn't have to be backed up, it's opinion. Morever I hit it up in reply to you people naging about "you don't know them". If you didn't figure out yet I didn't initially build up my view on person, nor do I intent to do so. Again reread my last post. If you really want to know what I think isn't holding water in your character case, send me a pm. Outcome of that discussion really doesn't matter for this. And include Junior too in that if you plan to open it, since he seems to be interested too.

 

I build my own view and argument around the fact that humans are flawed and prone to bias. Relationships, group affiliations and self interests increase the chance of it occuring in given situation, which is called conflict of interest. As a tool of reducing the bias you don't put people in decision chair where they can form majority and hold power due to above mentioned ties.

 

One more thing, I must ask, does Mur know about the situation of you two?

 

Junior.... this post should make it clear to you. But let me address a few points you made. "Know each other" isn't nowhere near to describe the depth of it.

 

Next, oh those words catched my eye too much, so I will jump to them directly. Honor, okay. Won't poke that thing it's too complex and it depends on number of things which it sums up. Trust is another thing we will put aside for now until we discuss other stuff. Loyalty! To who or what? That is the real question here. Human is loyal being, problem is a human is loyal to many things, what happens when loyalties to various things come in conflict, how do you know which one is stronger? Then loyalty is shifting believe it or not, one person was more loyalty to thing A yesterday than to thing B, today it's reverse, or person wasn't really aware to what he is more loyalty. When loyalties of person get in conflict one trust gets broken. Are you really able to put trust that in which is not measureable but instead is considered as a matter of "good faith". At times person get's put on challenge and one of his principles gets to be sacrificied when decision is made. Which leads further to honor which is sum of how virtuos a person is in accordance to values of a given society it belongs. Another key word! Society it belong. We as humans especially in internet age belong to more and more societies at same time. Values of MD might not be same as values of your IRL close circle nor that of your close MD friends. On the other hand they might even contradict and there is hard to tell which values person puts in first place.

 

Now let's get back a bit to your front part of post. Nobody can be objective, at least not at all times in all situations. Objectivity is ideal just like perfection, we strive to it but we never achieve it. I could simply tell you to go read philosphy, ethics and psychology if you haven't already or pull quotes, I don't see it having much use. Statistics? you don't have to be genius to notice a thing or two, like the fact that in no system which is striving towards fair rule people are put in chair of power with predisposition of bias due to family ties. When I hear that married couple is put together to a chair of supreme court which has 3 seats in some country, I will say interesting and stupid. When I hear it went without incident due to their bias predisposition, I'll say humanity evolved. As for percentage of other side, yeah it's pretty bright, it comes only from hereditary systems which are mainly defunct and those that aren't, hereditary leaders don't have any real power anymore, I really wonder why and what went wrong (yes I'm being sarcastic).

 

Sure they can be refuted. But I think that humanity needs to evolve first, probably a few times that is.

Getting back to honor, loyalty and trust, as it's evident from above they ain't constant but rather relative things just like everything else, which means they are in motion.

 

Yet again another conclusion of my view and my opinion about it in different words.

If one wants to build system that strives to ideals you don't start by picking people who are predisposed to be biased. Making such picks only increases the chance of it happening. It's only a matter of time or situation when it will happen due to above explained loyalty relation.

 

Your view, your opinion, fine with me if you want to put trust in them. I won't, I've my view, my opinion and I'll defend it from others who want me to denounce it and imposse their own opinion upon myself.

What is really the point of pushing on my view? It started to feel... as direct assault on my right to voice my view. I don't like it. I think I have explained myself enough. I don't see why I'm kept being misunderstood? I put human nature in front of a person, yes. Is that a crime? In my view it's only a matter of time or situation when bias will happen.

 

Actually indeed there isn't really a need to worry, MD is small community, trials like never happen, we are fine with them, they won't do anything bad. Just look how many trials there are, and when was the last one, but oh no! I did a bit of digging and well... your honorable Granos has a record. Oh wait! He is super special, he has two!

 

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6568-first-trial-jacoand-vs-granos-originally-conned-by-granos/page-3?hl=granos
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6602-granos-screwed-me-too/

 

Such a lovely example for judge. But Mur obviously knew this since he headed that trial and is fine with it. Yup I love it, classical example. Although it's unusual to manage to bring people of family tie togther in chair of power. One can definately push his relative somewhere at some other useful seat. But it's quite usual that leader in real life have criminal records. Lets not copy the good example from real life and lets copy the bad example from real life. After all goverment clerk isn't allowed to have a criminal record while parilament members are, or in this MD case JUDGE!

 

I started this with couple complaint, it improved to Ailith contradiction case and now Granos crime record case.

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I'd rather PREVENT something from going wrong in the first place.

Two of them needed to agree on any one topic, and two of the three are [redacted] very close irl. Although in a perfect world such ties will not influence decisions made ingame there is lots of potent

This fuss is a big stupidity.   Previously Secret people took the decisions and nobody complained.   They could made anything and you could not point your fingers to anyone cause you didn't knew w

Another question as follow up on my digs from last post. Yes I do this in separate post on purpose.

 

Since it passed more than 2 years in Court section of a forum since last post regarding any real trial. Why were judges suddenly named, for a purpose that actually doesn't exist? If such conflicts are none existant in public why make a public judges? Can't Council handle such things if it doesn't already? If those judges were meant to handle hidden conflicts rised away from public eye how do they get to know about them? Council forwards it? I don't get it. Is this an experiment in direction towards unmasking the council?

 

Mur comes back and out of blue gives out seats of power to weirdly (read above post, it's my opinion, if you don't like the word replace it with "smart pick" or similar) picked people who just recently came back. That seat of power is ruling over something that isn't happening and haven't happened for quite a long while. I see it as strange myself, don't know about others. But such stuff rise fundamental questions about the matter. What is really going on?

Edited by Ary Endleg
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You are quite right, you are entitled to your opinion, whatever your intentions are, and however confusingly they are put.. it is your right. Your liberty, should I say?

 

Please address any concerns about what Mur may or may not know, and any doubts on my abilities to Mur himself.

 

I wish you well, Ary.

 

Ailith

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You are quite right, you are entitled to your opinion, whatever your intentions are, and however confusingly they are put.. it is your right. Your liberty, should I say?

 

Please address any concerns about what Mur may or may not know, and any doubts on my abilities to Mur himself.

 

I wish you well, Ary.

 

Ailith

Ha, ha, ha.

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I guess what I don't get is Mur had been gone a long time before this and didn't seem to see a need for it.  Now there is a need?  My question isn't the people in the positions as much as the -need- for the positions.

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I guess what I don't get is Mur had been gone a long time before this and didn't seem to see a need for it.  Now there is a need?  My question isn't the people in the positions as much as the -need- for the positions.


Let a bunch of people take responsibility for md's death or md's life. If md dies blame it on the judges, if it lives, then the new public council is effective afterall!
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Yeah Mur said in anno he doesn't want to be contacted while in MD chat he said to post your opinions on forum, so I did it in right place Ailith.

 

Yes my concern indeed shifted in that direction now.  When you take a look at announcement Mur also says that he does it because he's now away. Well having judges to make decisions which still need his seal of approval doesn't really help with his hibernation either.

 

 

I will personally assume any of their (limited number) decisions if needed publicly, so if i suddenly pop in into a conflict and close it by giving a final explained or unexplained decision, this might be because one of them decided so. If i will consider that the effects of the decision do not need my 'cover', they are allowed to announce it themselves...

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Mya. I understand the confusion, and that it all seems a little sudden and strange. I wish more explanation had been given to the community.

 

 

Let a bunch of people take responsibility for md's death or md's life. If md dies blame it on the judges, if it lives, then the new public council is effective afterall!

 

 

Nimrodel, MD is already close to death. It was before Granos and I returned. If you read the judge announcement, this position is about something that should very rarely happen.

 

In terms of the growth of MD, this is partly in the hands of the community. On my own, without the help of the council, Chewy or any other person in authority, I know what I intend to do to help activity and bring more people in, do you?

 

You seem to have appointed yourself as the voice of the community, yet in speaking to others since I got back.. those I have spoken to do not feel the same as you. You seem eager to "blame".. blame others.. for the past, the present and the future. This kind of negativity can be very poisonous, especially in light of the fact that people are working to bring new people into MD.

 

@Rophs and Ary. to address does not mean to send. I meant make a post asking your questions to Mur so when he sees it it is very straightforward. Trawling through a pseudo-political diatribe will make anyone sleepy.

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For once I am not involved in a "scandal"  :d. Yay!

 

But I cannot stay out since I am one of the "judges". Btw: it took me totally by surprise. I had no idea Mur was going to do such a thing. I would have probably said no if he would have asked me. But what is done is done.

 

Anyway, what I wanted to say is this: I trust Ailith a lot.She's one of the few players I trust in MD. And I think she'll be fair no matter what. If you need to worry about fairness, you should worry about me (and Granos). I used to (right now I am trying not to) take decisions when I was angry which were highly subjective. When there was someone to stop me, everything went ok. When there was not bombs exploded.

 

As for Granos: he has his own agenda. BUT I am not a fan of him (never was, never will) so I am pretty sure I can counter his moves if i believe they are wrong. And in the unlikely event that Ailith supports Granos for something I believe it's wrong, I think you all know I have a big mouth and can make a fuss if needed.

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let me add my humble oppinion to all this.

 

basically Ary is correct about biasing. Biases influence our behavior and decisions A LOT. The only "problem" with them is...there is not a single OBJECTIVE person (especially within a given community who is unbiased towards the other members of community). If you just scroll the list of biases HERE you will realise that the idea of objective judges is a myth.

 

Do I trust Granos, Ailith or dst? Definitelly no, because the history shows that trusting people you dont know closely (or even those you know) is mostly an ungrateful thing. But I accept them as judges for a simple reason - I don't know if others would do better that them, I don't know if I would do better then them, I haven't seen the results of their work. So let us just wait and see what happens and we can always start discussing it again if it wont work properly.

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Mya. I understand the confusion, and that it all seems a little sudden and strange. I wish more explanation had been given to the community.
 
 

 
 
Nimrodel, MD is already close to death. It was before Granos and I returned. If you read the judge announcement, this position is about something that should very rarely happen.
 
In terms of the growth of MD, this is partly in the hands of the community. On my own, without the help of the council, Chewy or any other person in authority, I know what I intend to do to help activity and bring more people in, do you?
 
You seem to have appointed yourself as the voice of the community, yet in speaking to others since I got back.. those I have spoken to do not feel the same as you. You seem eager to "blame".. blame others.. for the past, the present and the future. This kind of negativity can be very poisonous, especially in light of the fact that people are working to bring new people into MD.
 
@Rophs and Ary. to address does not mean to send. I meant make a post asking your questions to Mur so when he sees it it is very straightforward. Trawling through a pseudo-political diatribe will make anyone sleepy.

You really believe that people who promise not to blame you today wont tomorrow? LOLOLOL. You do know how much burden you are carrying on your shoulders right? Mur will be branded again for favouritism if your little group doesnt work out. Vets who come back in the future might be subjected to prejudice. The vets who exist now might be subjected to prejudice everytime they recieve any medal/gift irrespective of whether they deserve it or not. MD is close to dying yes... But I hope you understand how unfair it sounds to people because of whom MD is still existing to see power being given to two people who were away since forever...

And you know what ailith? If you read my posts you might notice i was on your side and the second post was sarcasm which i think i suck at expressing because no one gets it :p Edited by Nimrodel
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Oh.. As for being the voice of the community, this is a declaration i make here, valid for future references : I do not speak for the community unless mentioned specifically by me. What i state are my observations and my opinions only.

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You really believe that people who promise not to blame you today wont tomorrow? LOLOLOL. You do know how much burden you are carrying on your shoulders right? Mur will be branded again for favouritism if your little group doesnt work out. Vets who come back in the future might be subjected to prejudice. The vets who exist now might be subjected to prejudice everytime they recieve any medal/gift irrespective of whether they deserve it or not. MD is close to dying yes... But I hope you understand how unfair it sounds to people because of whom MD is still existing to see power being given to two people who were away since forever...

And you know what ailith? If you read my posts you might notice i was on your side and the second post was sarcasm which i think i suck at expressing because no one gets it :P

 

 

I will expect people to blame me if I personally do something wrong to others, as I always have. Just as I appreciate that you and others have seen a lot of erratic changes and a steady decline in population, and the strangeness of two people returning and getting this burden (nice choice of word and I agree).

 

To be clear, I accepted this because I wanted to help Mur. I do not want to be remembered for being a judge. The work I want to do is the reason I came back. To help breathe new life into MD and encourage those who have kept it alive that their presence has meaning, and that they have a lot to contribute. I want the realm to sing with magic as it did at the very beginning. I hope you can help with this, Nim. I have looked up your quests and they were wonderful, when you write your next one I would like to do it myself.

 

(Ugh same thing as when I wrote the sword thing as a joke :P)

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I know Ailith and Granos. They are good people, and back when they were around full time before they had disappeared, MD was flourishing.

 

They did a lot of work to keep it going, with festivals, games, and general activity. I trust them.

And I trust Dst, too. : p

 

I believe they will do good, all three of them.

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since everybody is voicing their opinions i'll do so as well. i believe dst is inapropriate for the role of a judge. a judge needs to be fair and just and i have my doubts about dst regarding these two traits. her personality might be well suited for a bug abuse hunter (or whatever you call that) but the position of a judge is much different and requires diferent skills and even more importantly (at least in my opinion) a different personality.

as i know people allways want somekind of a proof (even if this is just an opinion) i'm offering this blogpost as a reference:

dstwords.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/easter-day-of-enlightment-time-to-enlighten-a-dumb-noob (this blog entry is kind of a continuation of the debate between dst and rophs that started in my quest but went a bit off-topic)

here you can see dst calling Rophs a dumb noob, because he told the alliance leader that dst is trying to take it over instead of being her loyal servant. she calls him the lowest type - a traitor for doing that.Now from my point of view rophs did the most honorable thing. he ignored his loyalty to dst (if there ever was any) and told the leader of the allince he belived to be in danger (it doesn't really matter here wheather dst really intended anything with that alliance or not) what she was planing (or rather what he believed she was planing). That is exactly the kind of action i would expect from a Judge - ignore any ties you have to the people involved and act in favour of justice not loyalty. dst however calls this action stupid indicating that she would choose otherwise if she were in his position. That leads me to believe that it is highly likely that if something does happen that requires the juddges to vote on it she will act based on her loyalty (or perhaps more likely lack of it) to the people involved instead of looking at it objectively and trying to do what is right and just.

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"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde

 

The power given by the character, not the person behind it, is what gives the power to JUDGE to these people. This character also forms the person behind the mask over the time, how it happened with so many of you. 

 

Over the time there where people capable of respecting more distinct roles while still being one actual person, (i was one of them too, and i knew several) . It does not matter if Ailith and Granos "know eachother"... this is just an other potential reason for you to argue against their decisions, thats why even if they already had the capability to do this with their own way of being, i felt the need to grant them these warrants. These warrants are more for "you" than for them.

 

In MD you get only what you already have

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Actually, Dst CAN be fair.

Back when I was an Ary, I was given wishpoints to give to my Story Night Crew as per instructions of Mur.

 

Dst called me on it, not knowing that this was the case. She had gone to Mur, the person who sanctioned this, and has not since made mention or furthered any kind of reprimand.

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It would be fun if one of you used your warrant to end this discussion... :D

Personally, I feel optimistic about this, but also I am very glad that the relations between Ailith and Granos have been brought up. If this annoucement passed without such reasonable questions and comments, we would know for sure MD died.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm not comfortable with the opacity of Mur's announcement regarding the recent use of warrants. The only way I can see the current situation becoming more apparent is if whoever was warranted against comes forth and goes public with what's going on.

 

Why do you care? You were not involved and clearly none of the ones involved want to make this public. At least not at this point. And if a conclusion was reached I am pretty sure both parties (or 3 or 4 or how many there were) are ok with the decision that was taken,

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