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Azthor

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Posts posted by Azthor

  1. Here are a few choice suggestions:

     

    Event

     

    MD Anniversary: it is a major, yearly recurring, event.

    MagicDuel Awards: likewise, as per above.

    Auction: makes it into the announcements every so often; certainly the kind of topic one might search the announcements for.

     

    Game Administration

     

    Recruitment/Task: for all recruitment purposes involving maintenance/development personnel. The Game Administration tag is otherwise relatively bloated; they are also, more often than not, announcements of particular interest. Different from Role.

     

    Change

     

    Refer to more specific tags instead (Creature Change, Item Change, Combat Change, Scene Change and so forth): a vast amount of the announcements fall within the purview of this tag; if one were to search the announcements through Change alone they'd still be looking at a few hundred announcements. I have not suggested the same for the Feature tag due to its lesser prevalence.

  2. I am just saying adding HC would be redundant considering it is not even running any more. It also may cause confusion for new players.

    The tags are meant for both future and previous announcements. That notwithstanding, it is easier for those involved to add all tags in a single run, then review it as necessary, than to have to go through multiple runs to add new tags that were already expected to become necessary, but were omitted solely due to their immediate inactivity. Though, of course, that should not get in the way of new tags being added at a later date, there is no reason to increase the workload by omitting HC at this point in time; even if HC were to be permanently suspended, which I find unlikely, yet still it could be claimed it was relevant enough for its previous installments to warrant the tag, as one might wish to check their respective running dates.

  3. I require a minor clarification, if I may; is that to say HC would go under both its own HC tag and the Event tag, or would it only go under the HC tag? And, if the later, would the omission of HC from the Event tag not potentially add confusion in that one'd otherwise also expect to find it under the aforementioned tag, and might deduce there was no one such a new announcement, as it was not found therein?

  4. Tags such as TC, HC, BHC, Items, Server Work and Items  are tags that you are unlikely to see standing on their own; generally, TC, HC and BHC fall within the purvey of Events (though not Quests), Items fall within Features/Rewards and Server Work falls within System (though not Automatic), just as Jailed would be a subcategory of Punishment.

     

    To add them is to have finer search options, and while it also means to have to keep track of more tags when assigning them, and hence more room for error, the volume of announcements is not large enough to burden anyone so, the initial would be retroactive tagging of those already existent announcements aside.

     

    Some of those subcategories are suitable for recurring matters, but might be developed in overabundance if extended to isolated announcements. For instance, one could simultaneously have an announcement pertaining to the HC be under the Events, Contest and HC tags, but going further than Contest without a well-established event, as is the HC, would be pushing it.

     

    That said, it must first be asked: would you deem the use of subcategory tags (Contest and Quests for Events, for example) desirable in the first place, or should the broader tags be stuck to?

  5. The Speculations on Metaphysics, Polity and Morality of the "Old Philosopher" Lau Tsze - Translation by John Chalmers, A.M.

     

    "Men go out of life and into death. The ministers of life are thirteen (the senses, etc.). The ministers of death are thirteen. Human life hastens to the place of death in thirteen ways (by the undue exercise of the senses and limbs). And why is this? It is only because the life men are striving to live is only the gross (physical) life (of intensified activity). I have heard it said, that [sic] a man that is good at taking care of his life may travel over the country without meeting a rhinoceros or a tiger, and may enter an armed host without fearing their steel. The rhinoceros finds in him no place to insert his horn; the tiger finds no place to fix his claw; the weapon finds no place to receive its blade. And why is this? It is because he is beyond the reach of death". (pg. 38).

     

    "Three in every ten (the cautious) are the followers of life. Three in every ten (the violent and obstinate) are the followers of death. And three in every ten, while they live, act so as to hasten their death. For why?-they live a life of luxurious opulence". (pg. xx, alternative translation).

  6. Background

     

    Whether or not the just and right exist, much, if not all all, of what we perceive as just and right is perceived so solely by the appearance of being just and right. Though that earlier question poses whether there is anything beyond said appearance which might be sought, regardless, that we can grasp no just and right but those goes to say that we should still strive for the aforementioned illusion; even if there is no higher truth to support it.

     

    Hence, a trial has ended ideally when those parties involved and those observing it all believe the just and right has been undertaken; though, in theory, the greater priority, where that is not possible, is that those external observers  perceive it as such, in effect, it is the executive party's view that is often imposed.

     

    Ultimately, whether or not the trial is generally denounced as just and right then becomes a matter of how closely aligned the executive party's decisions as witnessed are aligned to the views of those external observers.

     

    Though the executive party seeking general acclaim in its decision might, itself, be considered a form of bias, should a transcendent just and right be assumed, likewise, the view of that minority claiming for such just and right could be said, itself, to be a particular view of the just and right, dissonant with that of most observers, and none too different from those other decisions the executive party might have undertaken against general opinion.

     

    While the right and wrong are, philosophically, by and large untenable, the common moral values of that society, within a tribunal, though diffuse and none too universal, can be reduced to sufficiently familiar grounds that the right, or rather, a generally accepted version thereof, can be found and applied to particular instances.

     

    Main

     

    The three judges appointed by Mur were, according to him, appointed as the executive party in the very same fashion they'd be in most traditional societies, prior to proper institutionalization of the judiciary system: according to their influence. And note that, to date, many Supreme Tribunals, much more so than lesser instances, still appoint their members by prestige, rather than by a standardized evaluation procedure.

     

    Though the merit of such methodology may be questioned, that it has stood in MD for years goes to say that such a matter is deeply ingrained within it. Far too widespread and overreaching to discuss herein, a discussion pointing this direction should be undertaken not in particularity, as applied to this case, but in another topic altogether.

     

    The catch is that, such as the traditional occupiers of those roles - the sovereigns themselves, originally - Ailith, dst and Granos are not held accountable for their decisions by a de facto holder of power higher or parallel to them in the hierarchy, for Mur has opened hand of such a role. They may be held accountable for their actions by their fellow players, but only so to the extent that said player base is able and willing to hold them accountable for such; therein included official roles.

     

    As said players are unlikely to be sufficiently willing or able to react in force, it must be ultimately said that the judges are not held accountable to anything but their own views or wariness of damaging their image before the community. That notion is, in all likelihood, one which bothers many of those who have expressed their opinions contrary to the appointment as is; much more so than the actual possibility of which guarantees might prove necessary. The other being the method of appointment, as commented upon above.

     

    Should the unexpected come to pass and any perceived abuse ensue, we will most likely grudgingly bear along. Nevertheless, I find it exceedingly unlikely that such might come to pass, as I find it unlikely that the three might outright abuse their role, as opposed to merely taking the odd unpopular decision. Though there is nothing to be done in this particular regard, whether or not they will prove a good fit for the role, whether by happy coincidence or sheer skill, remains to be seen. The odds strike me as better than most. 

  7. Character: Azkhael.

    ID: 45899.

    Duration: 3 months.

    Reason for purchase: that is for my prospective master/mistress to figure out.

    Restrictions: standard, assets and extraordinary availability may be available upon request, but are by no means guaranteed.

    Share donated to the Treasure Keepers: 100%.

    Minimum bid: 5 silver coins.

    Main Event.

  8. Exchanges status: Open.

    1 Gold Coin: 5 credits.
    15 Silver Coins: 1 Gold Coin (referential).

    Should the rate above be non-standard, inform me thereof, with the due precedent, and it shall be promptly readjusted. Only transactions valued at a multiple of five credits are available.

  9. 1. Per Hesiod's depiction, between the Theogony and Works an Days, it is a tale of divine scorn and man's fall from grace; however, if considered in the light of its presentation as the ending event of the Golden Age, one should, rather, deduce that, as man, created by Prometheus, a titan, during Cronus' reign, following Prometheus' defiance of Zeus' will, and Zeus portrayed omnipotent as he is in Hesiod's works, is punished with Pandora's coming, man is ultimately reviled by Zeus not by their actions, but by that of their creators, the titans. The age that follows, the Silver Age, is one where women rule over men, an exceedingly negative scenario per Hesiod's description, given Pandora's static nature as a divine punishment; more so, though Zeus would recreate man anew a number of times, only in the Heroic Age would man redeem itself, and only so to culminate in the pessimistic depiction of the Iron Age, of man bereft of the gods. 

     

    Though Epimetheus is presented as a fool, accepting the dubious gift that is Pandora, as remains his role in Plato's later depiction, it must be noted that, unlike Plato, Hesiod places Prometheus in much more ambiguous a role, as he does the Olympians. That is to say, the gods themselves, and the titans, are both flawed, even as they remain much greater to man, and man, most of all, is flawed, deprived of the Olympian's potency while still damned to evil, as ensues with the Iron Age, per Hesiod. As it stands, however, it is difficult to find any hints of a transcendent morality in the Theogony or Works and Days, and so it may be more appropriate to say that, for Hesiod, the gods are not truly flawed, for they define right merely by being, and, hence, humanity is only moral when it follows the will of the gods willingly, though it cannot evade them.

     

    Plato, on the other hand, being a philosopher of the ideal, would censor the Theogony in its depiction of the gods as dissonant to what man can deem good; for when man perceives good, man has merely glanced at transcendent concepts the likes of Justice; and as all that is transcendent, and thus True, is inherently right, the gods could, in Plato, be depicted in no other way than as purely benevolent. As, in the Republic, Plato holds that noble lies should be upheld for the good of all, as is the case with the ideal polis there proposed, it would not be a stretch to allege that said censorship could have been meant quite literally.

     

    Given Pandora's supposed older role as a goddess of the earth and, more particularly, abundance, it is likely that Hesiod's writings are an adaptation on the depiction where the pithos bore all gifts, rather than all evils, the jar being a way to preserve them and the tragedy lying in their loss as the jar was opened, the element of hope (elpis) being present in the possibility of their retrieval, rather than the ruin of their spread. There, Hesiod's works may have served as support for the strengthening of patriarchal culture in ancient Greece, serving, then, as a theological argument towards the superiority of man.

     

    2. The choice, in Hesiod's Theogony, lay with Epimetheus, not Pandora; per Hesiod's own conclusion, there was no choice to be made by man, for all such mortals were bound by the will of Zeus. More so, Pandora, most of all, is inherently evil, for, unlike man, in the Works and Days, she is, truly and inherently, vile by nature; a nature forged out of Olympian scorn against man and its creator.

     

    4. Most remarkably, within Hesiod's presentation, Prometheus, when he tricks Zeus out of demanding the appropriate sacrifices from man; though he later suffers for it, that depiction is well-aligned with Prometheus' original role as a trickster deity.

     

    5. Though the Genesis 2 Eve parallel may be tempting, double so given antagonistic role women have in Hesiod, ultimately, Genesis 19, whence Lot's wife looks back upon Sodom and Gomorrah and becomes a pillar of salt, seems like a better example. The primary differences in these is that, not only in Genesis 2 is Eve meant as a gift, in Genesis 19 Lot's wife, truly dotted of free will, unlike Eve, would've had the option not to gaze upon the alight twin cities.

     

    6. Refusing a certain someone to the very end, only so that you may learn what follows.

  10. The sole participant, Eara Meraia, had her entry rated 3/5, and was awarded an Anniversary Aramor, sponsored by the Council.

     

    My thanks to all those in attendance, and a special mention to Eara Meraia, for submitting an entry, and BFH, for his assistance in maintaining anonymity during the evaluation. Though I shall not name them, my thanks too to the sponsors and those involved in the Anniversary's organization, as well as Azull, for the lecture log.

  11. Log, Azull's courtesy (I will add an edited and cleaned up version of the lecture in the next few days, as I reckon I broke my previous line of thought around 21:20 ST).

    [spoiler]

    [15/04/14 15:09] :Ars Alchemy arives early to sweet the floor and set up chairs
    [15/04/14 15:09] Ars Alchemy: (*sweep)
    [15/04/14 19:32] papaver:Hello all! Nervous, Azkhael?
    [15/04/14 19:32] :Gljivoje cheers papaver
    [15/04/14 19:33] papaver:Hi Glji! I found myself a training partner!
    [15/04/14 19:34] Gljivoje:nice one! training partner is something great to have
    [15/04/14 19:36] papaver:Only I am much stronger than he is. So we have to be very careful.
    [15/04/14 19:37] Azkhael:Greetings.
    [15/04/14 19:38] Azkhael:Perhaps. I am used to it; then again, it is a different audience from what I am accustomed to, so there is a bit of anxiety involved, of course. :)
    [15/04/14 19:38] Gljivoje:well, strength doesn't play that much part, i'd say. its a beautiful fighting system with plenty of possibilities.
    [15/04/14 19:38] Gljivoje:Hello Azkhael, they're all positive feelings.
    [15/04/14 19:40] papaver:Where is your lecture about, Azkhael?
    [15/04/14 19:42] Azkhael:Formally? Online communities as semi-autonomous social systems, but it is much more straightforward than the title would imply.
    [15/04/14 19:43] Gljivoje:Oh, greatness! I thought it would be something roleplay md related.
    [15/04/14 19:43] Azkhael:Ah, I suppose that the announcement left a lot of room for interpretation. :P
    [15/04/14 19:44] Gljivoje:indeed, but my interest grew much higher suddenly
    [15/04/14 19:45] Azkhael:I am glad to hear that.
    [15/04/14 19:45] papaver:Are your feelings positive or negative about those social systems?
    [15/04/14 19:46] Azkhael:It would be hard to attribute a positive or negative attribute to them as a whole.
    [15/04/14 19:47] Azkhael:Rather, it is an observable phenomena.
    [15/04/14 19:48] Gljivoje:yeah, i'd say it have much positiveness but that also gives certain negativeness. depends on angle of watching.
    [15/04/14 19:49] Azkhael:Of course, I could make one such a judgement towards a specific community, such as MD; observed that my own judgement would be subjective to my social background.
    [15/04/14 19:50] Azkhael:Or, in other words, my particular moral values.
    [15/04/14 19:50] Azkhael:Back in five minutes, I will have lunch now so that we don't need a pause in the middle of the lecture.
    [15/04/14 19:53] :papaver scratches her head
    [15/04/14 19:55] papaver:Where are the others?
    [15/04/14 19:59] :Gljivoje shrugs
    [15/04/14 20:05] Gljivoje:is there some item collecting place here in the Archives?
    [15/04/14 20:05] papaver:I really wouldn't know.
    [15/04/14 20:06] Gljivoje:it's alright. Maybe Azkh will know when he returns or Ars there.
    [15/04/14 20:06] papaver:He/she is asleep.
    [15/04/14 20:08] Gljivoje:oh, alright
    [15/04/14 20:09] papaver:Did you get a present?
    [15/04/14 20:10] Gljivoje:i don't think i did, no
    [15/04/14 20:11] Azkhael:And done. Excuse me for the delay.
    [15/04/14 20:11] papaver:Oh. Because you want to go to such a place, I thought so.
    [15/04/14 20:12] papaver:Well, as you can see the others still are not here.
    [15/04/14 20:12] Gljivoje:Ah that, no, I need to collect some usual item, a water bucket *smiles*
    [15/04/14 20:12] Azkhael:I have the time to spare, but a schedule is a schedule. I leave it up to you who are present whether you'd rather wait for more players.
    [15/04/14 20:13] papaver:I agree with you. Let us start.
    [15/04/14 20:13] Gljivoje:well Azkhael, it's all the same to me really.
    [15/04/14 20:14] Gljivoje:If you have time, maybe you can wait others, if there'll be some
    [15/04/14 20:14] :Gljivoje shrugs
    [15/04/14 20:15] papaver:Do you want to become a water dowser Glji?
    [15/04/14 20:16] Gljivoje:every land has some resources unique for it, so when you become it's citizen you can gather them with certain tools/items that you can get.
    [15/04/14 20:16] Azkhael:I shot a reminder in the mood panel; we will start at 20:20 ST regardless of attendance.
    [15/04/14 20:17] Gljivoje:so, for example, every citizen of MarindBell can receive a bucket and gather water, for example.
    [15/04/14 20:17] :Gljivoje nods
    [15/04/14 20:17] papaver:But there is that alliance too, right?
    [15/04/14 20:18] BFH the Green:this is happening
    [15/04/14 20:18] darkraptor:yep!!
    [15/04/14 20:18] BFH the Green:I will port people here
    [15/04/14 20:18] darkraptor:thank you BFH
    [15/04/14 20:19] :Azkhael nods
    [15/04/14 20:21] :Azkhael clears his throat
    [15/04/14 20:21] Gljivoje:yes, papaver, to your question
    [15/04/14 20:21] :darkraptor will poke BFH
    [15/04/14 20:23] Azkhael:We are starting; should anyone miss part of the lecture, a log will be available afterwards.
    [15/04/14 20:23] papaver:Hi Occamrazor!
    [15/04/14 20:23] Occamrazor:thanks
    [15/04/14 20:23] Occamrazor:hi
    [15/04/14 20:23] :BFH the Green failed to cast a spell
    [15/04/14 20:24] darkraptor:some are already walking this way
    [15/04/14 20:24] darkraptor:yet a jump would be nice :-P
    [15/04/14 20:24] Azull:thank you
    [15/04/14 20:25] Seigheart:Oh yay
    [15/04/14 20:25] Gljivoje:nice one
    [15/04/14 20:25] Azkhael:To those present at the end of the lecture, as an arbitrary mark, or those present beforehand who PM me tot hat effect, a subsequent quest based on the lecture will be offered.
    [15/04/14 20:25] Azkhael:More on that later.
    [15/04/14 20:25] :papaver applauds for Azkhael
    [15/04/14 20:25] Azkhael: (to that effect*)
    [15/04/14 20:26] :[Spell] Portal of Light Azkhael's Lecture - MDA Main Lobby
    [15/04/14 20:26] :Occamrazor is excited to visit this new place
    [15/04/14 20:27] MRAlyon:hey all
    [15/04/14 20:27] Occamrazor:yay! quests rock
    [15/04/14 20:30] :Seigheart passed Sand Castle to Azull
    [15/04/14 20:30] :Rikstar sits down on the staircase.
    [15/04/14 20:31] Ary Endleg:did I miss it?
    [15/04/14 20:31] Azkhael:Not at all.
    [15/04/14 20:31] Azull:thank you Seigh. please enough now :))
    [15/04/14 20:31] Ary Endleg:lecture I mean
    [15/04/14 20:32] Azkhael:I chose to wait longer due to the sudden influx; but I suppose we've waited long enough.
    [15/04/14 20:32] Occamrazor:'ello endleg
    [15/04/14 20:33] Ary Endleg:awesome
    [15/04/14 20:33] Ary Endleg:hello
    [15/04/14 20:33] Seigheart:lol you only got that cuz you have another, and this one was a necrovion sand castle :P
    [15/04/14 20:33] Azull:I saw :)) One day you have to tellme what happened to the tower
    [15/04/14 20:34] :BFH the Green failed to cast a spell
    [15/04/14 20:35] BFH the Green:afk
    [15/04/14 20:35] Seigheart:Hehe :P
    [15/04/14 20:35] Seigheart:Its a neat story. :P
    [15/04/14 20:35] Seigheart:Murs fault, like usual lol
    [15/04/14 20:36] :Azull chuckles
    [15/04/14 20:37] :Seigheart passed Guardian's Ring to Rikstar
    [15/04/14 20:38] lashtal:I'm curious about this lecture...
    [15/04/14 20:38] papaver:Me too!
    [15/04/14 20:38] Rikstar:Thank you Seigh.
    [15/04/14 20:38] Gljivoje:to me personally, the subject of it is awesome
    [15/04/14 20:39] Seigheart:Thank me by using them well
    [15/04/14 20:40] :Occamrazor is bouncing slightly in anticipation
    [15/04/14 20:40] Azkhael:A few things, before we start:
    [15/04/14 20:40] Azkhael:I ask that you feel free to ask questions at any time during the lecture should anything seem dubious; for miscellaneous questions, I will openly signal a few moments during the lecture for such.
    [15/04/14 20:41] :Occamrazor nods
    [15/04/14 20:41] Azkhael:I will not answer PMs during the lecture, though, should you have to leave early, you are encouraged to send me a PM so that I may count you as present in the aftermath for the purpose of the (cont)
    [15/04/14 20:41] Azkhael:subsequent quest.
    [15/04/14 20:42] Azkhael:The log will be available in the forums after the lecture.
    [15/04/14 20:43] Azkhael:As the announcement did not specify it, the lecture's theme is, in fact, not directly related to MD, though very closely tied nevertheless: "online communities as semi-autonomous social systems".
    [15/04/14 20:44] Azkhael:For those familiar, this heavily draws from Durkheim's methodology; due temporal parallels observed.
    [15/04/14 20:45] Rikstar:One question, do you study these kind of subjects?
    [15/04/14 20:45] Azkhael:Laterally; my field of specialty is Law, not sociology.
    [15/04/14 20:47] :Ary Endleg makes note: Azk is possible candidate for supstituting Mur
    [15/04/14 20:47] Azkhael:First, for a few general considerations on the statement of that theme.
    [15/04/14 20:50] Azkhael:Online communities can be analyzed as social systems with inherent values, but, unlike an actual society, we cannot claim those values are truly autonomous.
    [15/04/14 20:52] Azkhael:We, as individuals, are, in mainstream epistemology, in large part defined by our experience within society, joining a greater framework of values.
    [15/04/14 20:53] Azkhael:Whether our close family, acquaintances or even the scenery, we are coerced into a given notion of right.
    [15/04/14 20:53] Azkhael:That extends as deep as our very notion of beauty, strange as it may sound.
    [15/04/14 20:54] Azkhael:Even if we admit certain universal standards of beauty to exists (harmony) , ultimately there are many culturally defined nuances.
    [15/04/14 20:56] Azkhael:It'd be naive to see society as a construct exerting one-sided influence, of course; likewise, the individual components of society shape it across history.
    [15/04/14 20:56] Azkhael:Unconsciously so, often enough; that is what is characterized as "habit".
    [15/04/14 20:57] Azkhael:The classic methodology in sociology does away with such a complex interaction, for the sake of society's study, not because analyzing those interactions in such depth is, so far, unattainable.
    [15/04/14 20:58] Azkhael:Something further developed by the maturing of psychology and, particularly, psychiatry.
    [15/04/14 20:59] Azkhael:Note, for such methodology, society should never be approached as that two-sided interaction, but rather, an aggregate of social facts that cannot be decomposed into their individual parts.
    [15/04/14 20:59] Azkhael:An irreducible collective consciousness.
    [15/04/14 21:00] Rikstar:May I ask what methodology is, I tried to google it but I don't get simple answers.
    [15/04/14 21:01] Azkhael:Certainly.
    [15/04/14 21:01] Ary Endleg:it can't be decompossed yet it can be easily altered by the changes in individuals?
    [15/04/14 21:02] Azkhael:First, to address Rikstar, methodology is the aggregate of approaches utilized by a field to study its subject, often in empiric fashion.
    [15/04/14 21:03] Azkhael:Or an attempt to emulate it, in social fields.
    [15/04/14 21:04] Gljivoje:different methods for different approaches
    [15/04/14 21:04] Rikstar:Ah thank you for explaining. :)
    [15/04/14 21:04] BFH the Green: (in simple words methodology is a way of doing things. like for the goal of reaching this place you could have walked, you could have jumped, or beign teleported. All acomplish the same goal but all )
    [15/04/14 21:04] BFH the Green: (lead to the same result)
    [15/04/14 21:05] BFH the Green: (and I'm NOT here :P - sorry for interrupting)
    [15/04/14 21:05] Rikstar: ( *chuckles* )
    [15/04/14 21:06] Azkhael:As for the second point, abstractly, society is molded by its component individuals and molds them in turn, but in truth, that is an artificial construction for the sake of analysis. Ultimately (cont)
    [15/04/14 21:06] BFH the Green: (many last sentence should have stated, all lead to the same goal but all used a different method or methodology)
    [15/04/14 21:06] BFH the Green: (my*)
    [15/04/14 21:07] Azkhael:there is no such a thing as a society, but rather, individuals influencing each other.
    [15/04/14 21:07] Ary Endleg:now that is something I agree with
    [15/04/14 21:07] Azkhael:Likewise, that we render one such an abstraction irreducible is a choice of methodology, due to our inability to work with those individual parts.
    [15/04/14 21:08] :Ary Endleg nods
    [15/04/14 21:10] Azkhael:It is important to keep that (reality) in min, even as one works with the abstraction.
    [15/04/14 21:10] Azkhael:mind*
    [15/04/14 21:11] :Occamrazor mumbles my name is methodology
    [15/04/14 21:12] Azkhael:Modern sociology, in no small part due tot he development in other fields, and the overcoming of an ideological dispute that established sociology as an autonomous field in the first place, has (cont)
    [15/04/14 21:12] Azkhael:been more attentive to the individuals as agent and subject of sociology; that is microsociology.
    [15/04/14 21:13] Azkhael:But it is ultimately only usable in analysis of limited scope.
    [15/04/14 21:14] Azkhael: (analyses*)
    [15/04/14 21:15] Azkhael:Alas, I tend to divague.
    [15/04/14 21:17] Azkhael:Once you've taken a society for an irreducible aggregate of social facts, you are able to study those facts with relative objectivity.
    [15/04/14 21:17] Azkhael:If history's goal is to show what was, sociology's goal would be to show why it was so.
    [15/04/14 21:17] Azkhael:By applying the presumption of causality upon those social facts across history.
    [15/04/14 21:18] Azkhael:Similarly, you have axiology, that particularly studies the values inherent in a society.
    [15/04/14 21:19] Azkhael:Those social facts, though abstractions, imply a series of determinisms that shape our moral framework and habit.
    [15/04/14 21:19] Rikstar:Could there ever be something as having no society?
    [15/04/14 21:20] Azkhael:I cannot give you an answer there, but as long as there is human interaction, as humans are, one'd be inclined to say no, there cannot.
    [15/04/14 21:20] Azkhael:Even a state of complete anarchy still constitutes a society.
    [15/04/14 21:20] Gljivoje:society can always be, just following different patterns towards one another
    [15/04/14 21:22] Miq:look at me! I'm A society
    [15/04/14 21:22] Azkhael:In fact, Anarchy precisely relies upon a common moral framework to render the State redundant.
    [15/04/14 21:22] Azkhael:Hence its idealism.
    [15/04/14 21:23] Azkhael:Communism, as opposed to socialism, though given a materialist focus, follows likewise.
    [15/04/14 21:23] Ary Endleg:how about... individuals stuck in cryogenic chambers in statis in some secret underground facility that runs on thermal power and all of humanity everywhere else is extinct
    [15/04/14 21:24] Azkhael:You could not speak of a society, because there are no active human beings in the world.
    [15/04/14 21:24] Azkhael:Admittedly, for all purposes, thus frozen they are dead.
    [15/04/14 21:24] Miq:There is no difference between communism and capitalism other thant the means to the end
    [15/04/14 21:24] Ary Endleg:potentially not if aliens show up and unfreeze them for experiements *grins*
    [15/04/14 21:25] Azkhael:They were still dead, however, though later revived. *chuckles*
    [15/04/14 21:25] Occamrazor:considering that it is no society seems kinda not just humanity that has society of some sort, but also most other types of living creature, the idea of no society, as we understand it seems unlikely.
    [15/04/14 21:26] Miq:What do you think society is
    [15/04/14 21:27] Gljivoje:i'd say it's a discussion with much variables and ways of thinking
    [15/04/14 21:27] Miq:it's just a mixture of gains
    [15/04/14 21:27] Azkhael:Human society is humans influencing humans, in an extreme reductionism.
    [15/04/14 21:28] Ary Endleg:what if influence is continually unsuccessful? :P
    [15/04/14 21:28] Azkhael:Though a complex society, one with a moral framework of its own, for instance, also requires the perpetuation of habit.
    [15/04/14 21:28] Miq:i will have no society with you unless there is a gain
    [15/04/14 21:28] Gljivoje:but society where everyone work against everyone is also society 'cause they're all following the same pattern, ideology. they are not society as we know, but on higher scale it could be.
    [15/04/14 21:28] Ary Endleg:hmm
    [15/04/14 21:28] Miq:i have land, knowledge
    [15/04/14 21:28] Gljivoje:they have gain from one another, but in more primitive way
    [15/04/14 21:28] Miq:i need no other human
    [15/04/14 21:29] Miq:unless they will work for me
    [15/04/14 21:29] Miq:sure i wil lalso give something back
    [15/04/14 21:29] Miq:but need is the basic fundament
    [15/04/14 21:29] Ary Endleg:specially tailored leash?
    [15/04/14 21:30] Rikstar:That sounds still like a society Miq.
    [15/04/14 21:30] Azkhael:To put in perspective, Miq; though sapience is, we are led to believe, an human potential, it is one socially developed.
    [15/04/14 21:30] Miq:if you and your friends de
    [15/04/14 21:30] Miq:prr
    [15/04/14 21:31] Azkhael:As for your earlier statement, Ary, that an attempt at influencing someone did not fulfill its intended purpose does not mean it exerted no influence.
    [15/04/14 21:31] Miq:it's not just social
    [15/04/14 21:31] Ary Endleg:no I didn't mean that it didn't fulfill it's purpose
    [15/04/14 21:31] Miq:some of the sapience is from the need to oversmart animals
    [15/04/14 21:31] Ary Endleg:I meant exactly on influence
    [15/04/14 21:32] Miq:other part is from the need to oversmart other humans
    [15/04/14 21:32] Azkhael:The only way that could happen is if the target individual were completely incapable of sensing interaction in the first place.
    [15/04/14 21:32] Ary Endleg:what if it was received with complete indifference... continually (which is practically impossible but still let's theorize)
    [15/04/14 21:32] Miq:but i am indifferent
    [15/04/14 21:32] Ary Endleg:hmm you sure?
    [15/04/14 21:33] Rikstar:Well you talk the same language as us Miq.
    [15/04/14 21:33] Azkhael:That you are replying in the first place already indicates you are not truly indifferent in the sense intended by Ary.
    [15/04/14 21:33] Miq:because it gives me a gain
    [15/04/14 21:34] Miq:you well remember me, when i need a favor it will be easier do get
    [15/04/14 21:34] Azkhael:Alas, your own view of what is desirable is part of a value framework.
    [15/04/14 21:35] Azkhael:Barring, perhaps, those desires most instinctive.
    [15/04/14 21:35] Rikstar:Also isn't this so that any opinion can't be called objective?
    [15/04/14 21:35] Rikstar:Because we are always influenced.
    [15/04/14 21:35] Miq:well if in a month or so i need your help to get a woman
    [15/04/14 21:36] Azkhael:You, s an individual, are a byproduct of influence, that it cannot be avoided means our view of objectivity already accounts for such.
    [15/04/14 21:36] Azkhael:as an*
    [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:what objectivity?
    [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:there is just a need
    [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:i need meat
    [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:i care not what it will cost
    [15/04/14 21:38] Azkhael:Objectivity strikes closer to a form of expression than to a source of initiative; hence, there is no objective opinion, but there is objectively expressed opinion.
    [15/04/14 21:38] Miq:what opinion are you talking about?
    [15/04/14 21:39] Azkhael:Lest we trail too far from the intended topic, what is it you wish to denote, Miq?
    [15/04/14 21:39] Azkhael:That all our actions are based on egotistical impulses?
    [15/04/14 21:39] Miq:simply the fact that there are people who are not infuluenced by society
    [15/04/14 21:40] Azkhael:Do you consider yourself one such an individual?
    [15/04/14 21:40] Miq:but yes by simple egosim
    [15/04/14 21:40] Miq:or even fundametal undrestanding that it does not matter
    [15/04/14 21:41] Miq:me? somewhat
    [15/04/14 21:41] Azkhael:Oh, why are you bothering replying then?
    [15/04/14 21:41] Miq:i take part of sociaty
    [15/04/14 21:42] Azkhael:Replying is a direct form of acknowledging you were influenced by interaction.
    [15/04/14 21:42] Ary Endleg:exactly!
    [15/04/14 21:42] Miq:for two reasons 1) there is gains in it 2) i'm bored
    [15/04/14 21:43] Ary Endleg:resistence is futile, Miq, you will be assimilated :P
    [15/04/14 21:43] Miq:mostly 1
    [15/04/14 21:43] Rikstar:Well I agree with Azkhael.
    [15/04/14 21:43] Miq:talking with you will give me a leverege in some areas
    [15/04/14 21:43] Azkhael:And while I will concur that all drives have an egotistical impulse behind them, those impulses can be socially conditioned.
    [15/04/14 21:43] Azkhael:That is habit.
    [15/04/14 21:44] Azkhael:Or, on a more individual basis, they are psychologically conditioned through your life.
    [15/04/14 21:45] Azkhael:Your view of gain is, itself a constructed abstraction.
    [15/04/14 21:46] Azkhael:Hobbesian contractualism might interest you, in hindsight.
    [15/04/14 21:46] Occamrazor:excuse me >.> it seems we have drifted away from the exact topic
    [15/04/14 21:46] Azkhael:Indeed, let us go back on track, excuse me.
    [15/04/14 21:46] Rikstar:Shh it's still iteresting to me. hehe
    [15/04/14 21:47] Azkhael:Miq, I will gladly continue the conversation once we are done.
    [15/04/14 21:47] Occamrazor:thanks
    [15/04/14 21:48] Azkhael:Certain values we associate most strongly with an universal right are, in fact, devoid of such certainty; in our case, most often, western values.
    [15/04/14 21:49] Azkhael:A good example would be tolerance.
    [15/04/14 21:50] Azkhael:For the better part of history, one such a value was largely neglected; in fact, one could we are inherently much more prone to reject the strange to us than embrace it.
    [15/04/14 21:51] Azkhael: (one could say*)
    [15/04/14 21:52] Azkhael:However, for the most part, most of us cannot see tolerance as anything but a virtue? Why? Because we owe equality to our fellow human beings. Why is that? Because we were taught that from birth.
    [15/04/14 21:53] Azkhael:That is not to say every single individual in a society will share its primary framework of values, but rather, that there is a powerful tendency for such.
    [15/04/14 21:54] Rikstar:Do you think that it is good or bad that a lot of those "ideas" get thought to us?
    [15/04/14 21:55] Azkhael:I'd say the event itself is devoid of value, being a generic statement.
    [15/04/14 21:55] Gljivoje:i think only "don't kill fellow human" is aspect of tolerance that is mostly regarded. untolerance is on many different steps and aspects
    [15/04/14 21:55] Azkhael:However, if we were to talk specifically of a given set of western values most of us are subjected to...
    [15/04/14 21:56] Azkhael:Even from my own western-conceived viewpoint, one must beware not to take them blindly.
    [15/04/14 21:56] Occamrazor:what do you mean by "get thought to us"
    [15/04/14 21:56] Rikstar:The critical thinking part.
    [15/04/14 21:57] Occamrazor:ok thanks
    [15/04/14 21:57] Azkhael:One cannot help but agree with most of them, for they were born under such, but not all elements of that inheritance are unconscious.
    [15/04/14 21:57] Azkhael:In fact, a few social values are intentionally conceived towards a given purpose.
    [15/04/14 21:57] Rikstar: (Woops I mean the teached, I think.)
    [15/04/14 21:57] Rikstar: (Well my english isn't my main language.)
    [15/04/14 21:58] Azkhael:Symbolic domination, for one.
    [15/04/14 21:58] Rikstar: (It was: taught.)
    [15/04/14 21:59] :Occamrazor pets Rik
    [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:Consciously created, unconsciously inherited norms of social behavior by which we recognize another as an inherent superior.
    [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:It can be as simple as etiquette.
    [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:Or as complex as an entire lifestyle.
    [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:A great example is language.
    [15/04/14 22:01] Azkhael:Language is used for communication, but in doing so, it is also a form of exclusion.
    [15/04/14 22:01] Rikstar:That exclusion part can be seen as a small problem in the Netherlands.
    [15/04/14 22:02] Rikstar:*with language.
    [15/04/14 22:02] Ary Endleg:hahahaa
    [15/04/14 22:02] Gljivoje:words are like things, i'd say, certain bound feelings and previous past experiences are bounded to certain words by individual, so it's always misleading in a way
    [15/04/14 22:02] Azkhael:Hence the degree of ritualization that can be found in most of them.
    [15/04/14 22:03] Azkhael:One inherits more than land or capital, but also values specific to a given social group within larger society.
    [15/04/14 22:03] Azkhael:Those can be a form of maintaining privilege on their own; "symbolic capital".
    [15/04/14 22:04] Azkhael:While an online community will never reach an individual as deeply as that society they live directly in, its values do grow more complex the older it is.
    [15/04/14 22:06] Gljivoje:but also could remove many borders that are formed in "living" communication. like better imagination and less judgment, etc.
    [15/04/14 22:06] Azkhael:Interactions rituals, means of social distinction within said online community, or even knowledge pertaining distinctly to that setting.
    [15/04/14 22:06] Azkhael: (Interaction rituals*)
    [15/04/14 22:07] Azkhael:In a sense, that very framework, joint by a perception of distance from that original society, can dillute that framework.
    [15/04/14 22:07] Azkhael:But it can do no never do away with them.
    [15/04/14 22:07] Azkhael: (it can never do away*)
    [15/04/14 22:08] Azkhael:For one, though we clearly have means of distinction internally recognized within MD, we still indirectly defer to means of distinction external to it.
    [15/04/14 22:09] Azkhael:What is more, we are much more strongly driven by our inherent (social) beliefs of right and wrong than we are by the realm's own rules, even as we force ourselves to accept them.
    [15/04/14 22:09] Azkhael:That is because, being a second social system, we outright look at it as such; whereas that first system is inherently grafted into behavior.
    [15/04/14 22:09] Rikstar:Like being corrupt?
    [15/04/14 22:10] Azkhael:Can you elaborate a bit, please?
    [15/04/14 22:10] Rikstar:In the real world we won't d certain things, because we will feel bad.
    [15/04/14 22:11] Rikstar:In MD we won't do them either, while there aren't any rules to not do them.
    [15/04/14 22:11] Azkhael:Yes, that is good example.
    [15/04/14 22:11] Azkhael: (a good*)
    [15/04/14 22:12] Azkhael:Though, on the contrary, interesting enough, a reverse process also exists.
    [15/04/14 22:12] :Rikstar nods
    [15/04/14 22:13] Ary Endleg:So if Zully made a rule that all NC citizens must kill somebody once a month we would start doing it irl?
    [15/04/14 22:13] Gljivoje:and people can more open expose themselves, see how their ideas are accepted, because they're "true" identity is safe behind the mask. And in that way it can help in their "real" world expression.
    [15/04/14 22:14] Azkhael:As I said, the influence is much weaker from this end, Ary.
    [15/04/14 22:14] Ary Endleg:but possible?
    [15/04/14 22:15] Azkhael:Unless your hesitation to murder someone is already shaken within that society, you will not comply.
    [15/04/14 22:15] Ary Endleg:especially if we have immoral or amoral person irl from criminal parts of society? :P
    [15/04/14 22:15] Gljivoje:md is a part of real life, real life is not par of md. but its not first time that "game" influences people in such way Ary mentioned
    [15/04/14 22:15] Azkhael:At most, were one to do so, that influence, here, would've served as a trigger.
    [15/04/14 22:16] Azkhael:The framework preventing you from murdering another was already unstable.
    [15/04/14 22:16] Ary Endleg:I see
    [15/04/14 22:17] Azkhael:Those means of interaction you've adopted in MD, will, of course, have their influence magnified within MD.
    [15/04/14 22:17] Azkhael:That is to say, when we are playing we all adopt a mask of sorts.
    [15/04/14 22:18] Rikstar:I see chatting in MD as different then chatting outside of MD.
    [15/04/14 22:18] Azkhael:Quite!
    [15/04/14 22:19] Rikstar:I still mean with text via internet.
    [15/04/14 22:19] Azkhael:Yes, I got it.
    [15/04/14 22:19] Gljivoje:atmosphere
    [15/04/14 22:19] Azkhael:Social context, reverential dread, peer pressure, perceived expectations.
    [15/04/14 22:20] Azkhael:In fact, that may even apply difference between chat and a PM, both within MD.
    [15/04/14 22:20] Azkhael:Unconsciously so.
    [15/04/14 22:21] Azkhael:Note, those influences, even from a same source, are rarely entirely consistent.
    [15/04/14 22:22] Azkhael:Hence it is unlikely any of us have a set of beliefs which sports absolutely no contradiction. We may feel strongly in favor of clashing opposites.
    [15/04/14 22:23] Ary Endleg: (how much longer? I'm getting time constrained)
    [15/04/14 22:23] Azkhael:I will open to miscellaneous questions now.
    [15/04/14 22:23] Ary Endleg: (aprox?)
    [15/04/14 22:24] Azkhael: (Missing the conclusion and quest announcement)
    [15/04/14 22:24] Azkhael: (Probably another twenty minutes)
    [15/04/14 22:24] Ary Endleg: (okay, will try to stay for conclusion, not interested in quest since no time generally :P)
    [15/04/14 22:24] Azkhael:Anyone?
    [15/04/14 22:25] Rikstar:Well, I'm interested in these kind of topics, but I'm an amateur on the subject. Could you recommend any books to read?
    [15/04/14 22:25] Gljivoje:i get a feeling theres much more to be said
    [15/04/14 22:26] Azkhael:Of course there is :P
    [15/04/14 22:27] Azkhael:Certainly, Rikstar.
    [15/04/14 22:27] Azkhael:I'd suggest Language and Symbolic Power for a starter.
    [15/04/14 22:27] Azkhael:Pierre Bourdieu.
    [15/04/14 22:28] Gljivoje:maybe opening one day for chat session how rl affects on our md experiences and how md experience effect on our rl life. correlations and observations *laughs*
    [15/04/14 22:28] Azkhael:This is mostly an introduction, admittedly.
    [15/04/14 22:29] Rikstar:I have the title saved in my notebook.
    [15/04/14 22:30] Azkhael:There are authors who have conducted in depth studies as to said analysis, specifically oriented towards online communities.
    [15/04/14 22:30] Azkhael:Most of them microsociological studies.
    [15/04/14 22:32] Azkhael:However, to draw a conclusion here, online communities find themselves in a precarious balance in regard to their autonomy.
    [15/04/14 22:33] Azkhael:We saw that societies, held as an abstraction of those individuals within, for the sake of ease of analysis, bring tendencies within their moral frameworks that largely determine (cont)
    [15/04/14 22:33] Azkhael:an individual's values.
    [15/04/14 22:33] Kyphis:.
    [15/04/14 22:34] Azkhael:Furthermore, we saw that most individuals suffer said and enact such influence unconsciously, though that framework can be intentionally manipulated by a select number towards a given end.
    [15/04/14 22:34] Azkhael:Likwise, we saw that online communities sport many such aspects, including internal mechanisms of social recognition and rituals of communication.
    [15/04/14 22:34] Lania:Rik, if you are also interested in studies on online behavior and identity creation you can read: Alone together by Sherry Turkle and The winter of our disconnect. (sorry for intervening)
    [15/04/14 22:34] Occamrazor:really like Gljivoje's idea of 1 day chat sessions great topic
    [15/04/14 22:35] Azkhael:Still, it was said that those values bear a much reduced influence on the individual itself, if compared to that originary society.
    [15/04/14 22:35] Rikstar: (I have it saved Lania. :) )
    [15/04/14 22:35] Lania: (oh cool. :P )
    [15/04/14 22:35] Occamrazor:you guys are really smart
    [15/04/14 22:36] Azkhael:However, when acting within said online society, we adopt those influences more strongly, even as those more inherent to us lower in intensity. An internal form of social coercion.
    [15/04/14 22:36] Occamrazor:and gals
    [15/04/14 22:36] Azkhael:Yet still, even through that mask our originary society exerts the more powerful filter. The earlier may serve as a trigger, but it is not the most determinant of our behaviour.
    [15/04/14 22:37] Azkhael:How that holds true for each of you, however, is for you to ponder over, and here, I will gladly support Gljivoje's proposal.
    [15/04/14 22:38] BFH the Green: (when is this scheduled to end? I need to be back by then to send people back :P)
    [15/04/14 22:38] Azkhael: (Just the quest announcement now :P)
    [15/04/14 22:39] BFH the Green: (ohh there's a quest?)
    [15/04/14 22:39] :Phantom Orchid
    [15/04/14 22:39] Gljivoje:i'm glad your found some interest in this mdoholic meetings *smiles* something to ponder about and eventualy realize
    [15/04/14 22:39] Azkhael:Those of you here now will be eligible to participate in the following spin off quest, as well as those no longer here who had PMed as to their absence.
    [15/04/14 22:39] Rikstar: ( *chuckles* )
    [15/04/14 22:40] BFH the Green: (send me a pm when over, the beeps annoy the documentary I'm watching)
    [15/04/14 22:40] Occamrazor:beep
    [15/04/14 22:41] Azkhael:You are to write a summary of no more than 500 words approaching the lecture's key points, to be sent to divine-being@hotmail.com, devoid of any form of identification. Should your email (cont)
    [15/04/14 22:42] Azkhael:directly reveal your username, I ask that you create a decoy one for the purpose of this quest.
    [15/04/14 22:42] BFH the Green:against that
    [15/04/14 22:42] BFH the Green:use forum
    [15/04/14 22:42] BFH the Green:that's why we have one
    [15/04/14 22:43] BFH the Green:i'm not here
    [15/04/14 22:43] :Rikstar chuckles
    [15/04/14 22:43] Occamrazor:does everyone get a prize?
    [15/04/14 22:43] Occamrazor:everyone that writes one i mean
    [15/04/14 22:43] Rikstar: *pets Occamrazor* It's not about the prize. :)
    [15/04/14 22:43] Azkhael:Submissions will be ranked from 1 to 5 based on how thoroughly they've approached those topics, and how synthetically thus.
    [15/04/14 22:44] Occamrazor: *laughs* oops
    [15/04/14 22:44] Azkhael:All submissions will be awarded, though it goes without saying a better score bears a better reward.
    [15/04/14 22:44] Gljivoje:maybe thorugh mail and than Azkhael can put it on forum?
    [15/04/14 22:44] Azkhael:I will create a topic with the log and the quest proposal.
    [15/04/14 22:45] BFH the Green:FORUM PM!
    [15/04/14 22:45] :Occamrazor kicks Rikster
    [15/04/14 22:45] Azkhael: (Are anonymous forum PM's a possibility?)
    [15/04/14 22:45] :Rikstar hides under the staircase.
    [15/04/14 22:45] Azkhael: (If so, please feel free to opt for that instead; my username is Azthor)
    [15/04/14 22:45] Rikstar: (What do you mean with anonymous?)
    [15/04/14 22:46] BFH the Green:use another person to send them
    [15/04/14 22:46] Lania: (as in you can't identify who sent the msg? )
    [15/04/14 22:46] Gljivoje:when's the due for this quest?
    [15/04/14 22:46] Gljivoje:i dont have problem with anonymity
    [15/04/14 22:46] BFH the Green:brb
    [15/04/14 22:46] Azkhael:Two weeks from now, exactly.
    [15/04/14 22:46] Rikstar: (Well we were to write our player names, so I think forum PM will work.)
    [15/04/14 22:46] Azkhael:For submission.
    [15/04/14 22:46] Gljivoje:oh, nice
    [15/04/14 22:47] Azkhael:I wrote the accounts of those present; due to the anonymity, I won't be able to check presence prior the fact, but will do so after the evaluation.
    [15/04/14 22:47] Azkhael:Those not qualified, though they will have their text rated, will be denied a reward.
    [15/04/14 22:47] BFH the Green:If you want anonimous submissions then neither emails and neither direct forum pms will work.
    [15/04/14 22:47] Occamrazor:thank you so much for your knowledge, patience & time
    [15/04/14 22:48] BFH the Green:but that doesn't make sense as you have to reward them
    [15/04/14 22:48] Gljivoje:yes
    [15/04/14 22:48] Rikstar:Ah you want anonymity so that your view on us won't make you grade us different right?
    [15/04/14 22:48] Azkhael:Indeed, I'd request the usernames after the evaluation.
    [15/04/14 22:48] Azkhael:And yes.
    [15/04/14 22:48] BFH the Green:so if you want to judge them based on content make them send their submission to a neutral player
    [15/04/14 22:49] Azkhael:Also doable.
    [15/04/14 22:49] BFH the Green:and the neutral player send you all submissions
    [15/04/14 22:49] Gljivoje:i love this way of thinking
    [15/04/14 22:49] BFH the Green:without names
    [15/04/14 22:49] Rikstar:I opt for BFH's idea.
    [15/04/14 22:50] Azkhael:It is certainly an option, though I need a volunteer who won't participate.
    [15/04/14 22:50] BFH the Green:send them to me
    [15/04/14 22:50] BFH the Green:give them a deadline
    [15/04/14 22:50] Azkhael:Allow me to get the forum post up first.
    [15/04/14 22:50] Gljivoje:there will write everything needed to know, anyway
    [15/04/14 22:51] :Azkhael used the Acousticremains stone to temporarily learn the Acousticremains spell
    [15/04/14 22:51] BFH the Green: (emails shouldn't be used for quests :)
    [15/04/14 22:52] Haedrin:Whats poppin my wizards!
    [15/04/14 22:52] Gljivoje:greets Haedrin, i see you aged in the labyrinth
    [15/04/14 22:53] Haedrin:Yeah man. I came through to Golemus.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Gljivoje: *claps* nice one
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:.
    [15/04/14 22:53] :Haedrin bows deeply
    [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:Sorry, possible spoilers.
    [15/04/14 22:54] Haedrin:And! I drew a map! :D
    [15/04/14 22:54] Gljivoje:thats alright
    [15/04/14 22:54] Rikstar:We don't want to ruin secrets about the maze. :)
    [15/04/14 22:54] Haedrin:Secrets?
    [15/04/14 22:54] Gljivoje:nice one, cant trust your brain anyway
    [15/04/14 22:54] Rikstar:It's what you call secrets ofcourse.
    [15/04/14 22:55] Haedrin:I have a cool brain
    [15/04/14 22:55] Rophs:Here's a hint for the labby, every scene is viewed from the same angle.
    [15/04/14 22:55] :Haedrin claps excitedly for Rophs
    [15/04/14 22:55] Haedrin:so you figured?
    [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:Dont worry I dont intend to give my map to anyone unworthy
    [15/04/14 22:56] TheRichMerchant:here is my hint: keep pressing buttons, eventually you will make it
    [15/04/14 22:56] BFH the Green:rophs you will host the other thing?
    [15/04/14 22:56] TheRichMerchant:as i did *whistle*
    [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:But I do like to join Golemus.
    [15/04/14 22:56] BFH the Green:where is it?
    [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:Where is what?
    [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:Who are you * blink blink *
    [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:!
    [15/04/14 22:56] :Gljivoje laughs
    [15/04/14 22:57] rigo3halo:wow how did i get from the entrance of lore root to in here? what is going on here?
    [15/04/14 22:57] BFH the Green:rophs!!!
    [15/04/14 22:57] Rikstar:BFH I think you have to explain something. xd
    [15/04/14 22:57] BFH the Green:ROPHS!
    [15/04/14 22:57] Rophs:What?
    [15/04/14 22:57] Rophs:What did I do?
    [15/04/14 22:57] Rikstar:BFH what about a portal to the GoE?
    [15/04/14 22:57] Azkhael: (As the Council had not commented, I had thought emails to be permitted; BFH, if I may ask, what is your forum account?)
    [15/04/14 22:57] Rikstar:So that stranded players can get back.
    [15/04/14 22:57] :Rophs looks around in panic
    [15/04/14 22:58] BFH the Green:you are the seed walk guy?
    [15/04/14 22:58] :Rophs nods
    [15/04/14 22:58] Azkhael: (I thought*)
    [15/04/14 22:58] BFH the Green: (BFH)
    [15/04/14 22:58] rigo3halo:hmm?
    [15/04/14 22:58] Rophs:I do Seedwalks nowadays.
    [15/04/14 22:58] Haedrin: * stares into the library * Hmm I wonder if theres anything good in there
    [15/04/14 22:58] Azkhael: (Noted, thank you)
    [15/04/14 22:58] rigo3halo:well hello everyone
    [15/04/14 22:59] Gljivoje:hello rigo3halo
    [15/04/14 22:59] Rikstar:Hello.
    [15/04/14 22:59] rigo3halo:i havent been here in over four years whats new what have i missed?
    [15/04/14 22:59] Rophs: *grins* Will I be given the Traveller's Sandals back so that I may more easily walk to the seeds?
    [15/04/14 22:59] BFH the Green:"Seedwalk at Awiiya at 23:30." will happen?
    [15/04/14 22:59] Rophs: *nods* It will.
    [15/04/14 23:00] BFH the Green:ask council not me?
    [15/04/14 23:00] BFH the Green:...
    [15/04/14 23:00] Gljivoje:how should one simply answer that, rigo
    [15/04/14 23:00] Rophs:...
    [15/04/14 23:00] rigo3halo:i got distracted with dna activation and tuning into the earth, and etc.. lol
    [15/04/14 23:00] Rikstar:MoC has the sandals Rophs.
    [15/04/14 23:00] Lania:No, Rophs. We won't get them back, sadly.
    [15/04/14 23:00] Rophs:Kyphis asked me if I would be able to do one during MDA's day
    [15/04/14 23:01] rigo3halo:well you could just start from the begging and i dont mean genisis
    [15/04/14 23:01] BFH the Green:So see you there
    [15/04/14 23:01] :Rophs nods
    [15/04/14 23:01] Gljivoje:i'd saythe past doesn't matter, look ahead rigo
    [15/04/14 23:01] :[Spell] Loquacious retrieval
    [15/04/14 23:01] rigo3halo:rght on
    [15/04/14 23:01] :Haedrin grabs hilt looks around menacingly
    [15/04/14 23:02] papaver:I am going to take a nice long walk back.
    [15/04/14 23:02] Haedrin:What you looking at son?
    [15/04/14 23:02] Rikstar: (Also Lania I like your Public log on my acc. :) )
    [15/04/14 23:02] Haedrin:HAHA!
    [15/04/14 23:02] rigo3halo:well so far i dont really know anybody to well here or really know whats going on i just wonder about sight seeing and etc.
    [15/04/14 23:02] :Gljivoje laughs
    [15/04/14 23:02] Lania: (Yep, Rik. I just can't forget ((: )
    [15/04/14 23:03] Haedrin:i feel you my brother from another mother
    [15/04/14 23:03] rigo3halo:i guess you could say ive been slumbering for four years... a good nap
    [15/04/14 23:03] Rikstar: (I am also not able to forget, but it will be hard to do another one like that. hehe)
    [15/04/14 23:03] rigo3halo:< (^~^) >
    [15/04/14 23:03] Gljivoje:i see some plant atributes on you, developed tilakoid membranes and such cool stuff
    [15/04/14 23:03] Lania: (ah. Doesn't matter. I just hope I'm in the right spot at the right time :D )
    [15/04/14 23:04] rigo3halo:on me?
    [15/04/14 23:04] rigo3halo:ive grown mold you mean?
    [15/04/14 23:04] Rikstar: (I will make sure of that.)
    [15/04/14 23:04] Haedrin:I think I got mugged...
    [15/04/14 23:04] rigo3halo:ugh i got take a bath.. lol
    [15/04/14 23:04] Gljivoje:not mold man
    [15/04/14 23:04] :Azkhael failed to cast a spell
    [15/04/14 23:05] Lania: (looking forward to it XD)
    [15/04/14 23:05] :[Spell] Loquacious retrieval
    [15/04/14 23:05] rigo3halo:btw where am i.. i remeber standing in front of lore rrot and the wah la.. im here
    [15/04/14 23:05] rigo3halo:root*
    [15/04/14 23:06] Haedrin:i feel so volatile... Whats that all about...
    [15/04/14 23:06] Haedrin:pardon my french
    [15/04/14 23:06] papaver:Azkhael, thanks for the interesting lecture. I will go now.
    [15/04/14 23:07] Azkhael:Farewell!
    [15/04/14 23:07] Haedrin:Bwuahaha!!!
    [15/04/14 23:07] Haedrin:cya
    [15/04/14 23:07] Rikstar:Bye papaver.
    [15/04/14 23:07] rigo3halo:so im growing? "as if i was a real boy"
    [15/04/14 23:07] Azkhael: (I can't seem to get the log window up. Or I am terribly blind, can anyone give me a hand?)
    [15/04/14 23:07] Lania:Bye, Papaver :)
    [15/04/14 23:08] Rikstar: (Hmm do you have a pop ups disabled?)
    [15/04/14 23:08] papaver:' *leaves the building*
    [15/04/14 23:08] Azkhael: (Nay, I even tried a different browser)
    [15/04/14 23:08] Rikstar: (Hmm)
    [15/04/14 23:09] Azull: (popup blocker?)
    [15/04/14 23:09] Azull: (ah lag :P)
    [15/04/14 23:09] :Azull used the Acousticremains stone to temporarily learn the Acousticremains spell
    [15/04/14 23:09] Rikstar: (Or else is there an other player who can pull the log?)
    [15/04/14 23:10] Haedrin:Ahrem ladies... Ill take my leave...
    [15/04/14 23:10] Rikstar:Bye Haedrin.
    [15/04/14 23:10] :Haedrin giggles, spins around and runs out the door
    [15/04/14 23:10] Azull:winbd whispers
    [15/04/14 23:10] :[Spell] wind whispers
    [/spoiler]
     
    The following players are qualified for participation, based on registered attendance or PM amidst the lecture, as accorded at its beginning: Rikstar, Samon, Intrigue, Shemhazaj, MRAlyon, darkraptor, Grido, Miq, Mya Celestia, Valoryn, Eara Meraia, Azull, Fire Starter, Ars Alchemy, Gljivoje, Lania, Occamrazor, Phantom Orchid, TheRichMerchant, papaver, lashtal, Ary Endleg, Seigheart & Kyphis.
     
    Others may submit their applications for evaluation, should they wish so, but their submissions will not be eligible for a reward.
     
    Quest: write a summary of no more than 500 words approaching the lecture's key topics. Submissions will be rated from 1 to 5 based on their overall quality, with particular emphasis to thoroughness of content, synthesis ability and formal text structure. Nothing not explicit in the above log shall be taken for consideration in evaluating the breadth of content. Rewards will be tiered according to the score attained.
     
    The summaries are to be sent to BFH (by forum PM), who has offered to act as an intermediary for the submissions so that I may rate them without knowledge of their authorship. The deadline for submissions is Thursday, May 1st, overruling the original deadline of April 29th, due to my own delay in producing this post.
  12. Disclaimer: overall, this is clearly more complex a theme than can be remotely satisfactorily approached here, even if the below might still hold true, in much more nuanced fashion. Yet still, I am led to believe this is the answer you seek:

     

    What you describe is the legitimization of the monopoly of force by the State as the solidification of a given social strata's privilege. In context, loyal soldiers corroborate with orthodox domination institutions, whereas criminals and rebels corrode them. That a given institution is in power, in stable fashion, expresses that those cultural values they impose are already bent to their accord upon the populace. The different moral values by which soldiers and criminals are judged are, thus, an imposed perspective.

     

    Surprisingly enough, that is not necessarily negative, but rather, merely a paradigm of social organization across history in regions of relative stability. Force is only the most obvious form of domination, and no social structure could have hoped to exist through time without building cultural pillars to support itself and justify its status quo.

     

    If the old organization collapses inwardly, soon enough those soldiers who were loyal to it will be vilified by society, no better than criminals. Meanwhile, even those criminals who took advantage of the disorder, but wound up sabotaging the old order, will be presented in a better light in an aftermath where said order was brought down. That because, in the event of a civil war, it must be said that those cultural values behind the old order and its institutions are necessarily undergoing a crisis.

     

    In the event of a foreign invasion¹, a very different scenario forms, as the internal mechanism of legitimization have not collapsed, but rather, a foreign set of values tries to penetrate that society through force.  In that event, the invaded society's current orthodox values will generate widespread unrest against the invading order, as the nation may have been defeated in force, but the imposing order still lacks the cultural subtract to stabilize its dominance.

     

    ¹it assumed that the nation is not in the middle or on the verge of a civil war, and therefore has a relatively stable set of values through society.

  13. I risk deviating a little off-topic, alas, it might be  a necessary deviation. Let it be a temporary one. Excuse me, No one.

     

    High viscosity and the lack of interaction should not be mistaken for a common issue, even if they find a common root in the lack of activity. Viscosity adversely affects interaction in remote locations by suppressing activity inflow to those locations; as a radicalizing factor, viscosity is bred by a deficit in global activity, and further fueled by itself. High viscosity tends to create viscosity. Viscosity does not, however, affect global activity unless by harming player interest in the game, and that can be argued.

     

    The lack of interaction as a whole, on the other hand, finds its common factor with viscosity in that it is also influenced by global activity. Should viscosity be considered to have adversely affected global activity, then it has also influenced global interaction indirectly. However, it is a direct consequence of viscosity only in those remote or not so remote locations that suffer from high viscosity in the first place.

     

    That taken in account, what must be highlighted is that, in addition to that common root of global inactivity, they also have their respective, separate causes. High viscosity is further fueled by the lack  of attractives for it to be overcome in those locations that already receive little to no travel. Interaction, on the other hand, though I lack the knowledge to make a certain statement, may or not have other causes deeply ingrained within the community.

     

    Thus, I propose two distinct questions: is the lack of a concentration of players in a scene what is hampering interaction, or does the problem lie elsewhere? Is viscosity directly hampering the inflow of new players and permanency of those current ones, and if so, does it constitute a danger spiral?

  14. I can only concur, last part aside.Thus, either I've expressed myself in a dubious manner or one of us has misunderstood the other.

     

    To hamper access to a scene until the player has enough action points and/or resources, in the broadest sense, to access it, that I approve of, exactly having in view that viscosity was designed as it was with a purpose in mind. However, to hide a given scene is to outright deny an individual the chance to, by their own effort, gain access to said scene.

     

    Though, here, the creation of an organized effort to reduce viscosity could be considered an extension of a personal effort to access an area, that then acquires, in and of itself, an undesirable side, as it sabotages, to a given extent, viscosity's inherent function¹.

     

    In the long run, MagicDuel has filters of its own in the selection of new players. That can be misleading, still, in that even those temporary players who pass the game, only to leave it shortly after, play an integral part in the attraction of those players who might be selected by those filters.

     

    ¹unless, of course, motivated by viscosity, it still fulfills the criteria that allows it to persist as an activity in the absence of viscosity.

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