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Nahblard

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  1. Upvote
    Nahblard got a reaction from Watcher in Gates Closed   
    [quote name='dst' date='12 November 2009 - 06:18 AM' timestamp='1258006732' post='47253']
    That is the problem with MD: you all see something players as gods. They are not. They are just normal players. Some of them got to that position simply by buying their way up. I will not go into details because they are not significant. So, stand up for yourself. What do you have to lose? It's a game after all. You can always come back with a different character.
    [/quote]
    You say what you think and do what you want, you talk like you have no trust of people. Most people consider that "bad". So yes, by those superficial standards, then yes, you ARE bad*. I'm talking purely from the point of view of well... what I see. Bear in mind I'm not inclined to make snap decisions, and I'm aware there's more than meets the eye both in the game and structure.

    I'm not trying to push what I'm saying in terms of absolutes just in terms of how it *appears* from where I'm sat. I'm also lucky enough to be the sort of person who investigates, probes and looks around. But a lot of people aren't. I will stand by my point, Mur wondered why he can't retain new players and there it is.

    You are not wrong about much, but that doesn't change that Mur said he wondered where new players went and the game is quite difficult and hostile to retaining new members. There is the cause. The question is not of whether I am right, or you are right, but whether Mur decides that his vision is important, people can like it or leave, or that he wants to reach more people and is willing to alter it a bit. I don't wish to push either alternative as the way to go, as the problem or the solution, just that here lies the choice and the crux of the issue. You obviously feel that an elite group makes a better game, I'm not saying your wrong, just that an elite group means fewer new players.
  2. Upvote
    Nahblard got a reaction from Ivorak in Gates Closed   
    Okay, I'm a new player still, really. I intend on hanging around but I'm going to give you how I feel. I might not be representative. I know some of my niggles ARE NOT. I'm enjoying this game because it *is* different. It's sold as being completely different, and tbh it's not quite, however "like the best bits of quite a few games put together, with several twists added" doesn't roll off the tongue as well as "like nothing you've ever played". I like the game, however that doesn't mean it's perfect as I'm sure most people understand.

    Most of the main issues were covered well a page back, and then shot down. However the attitude that comes with shooting down is part of the problem. New players are told to put up and shut up, discouraged from speaking up because they're new, treated rudely by certain people (some of whom are held in high esteem by the community), because they're new, not given a little margin for error because they're new. There are people out there looking out after new players, they are infact the majority and a lot of the community does look after them, however despite that, I've never played a game with such a large amount of discouragement and hostility to new players, both in the community and the game mechanics. When a new player says something that is oblivious to them because they're about 100 days short of amount of playtime needed to realistically have experienced it, you should be thinking "they can't be expected to see that" if they have no reason to know that it doesn't occur the way they see it, why should they be expected to see it? They will act based on the information they have, and that information paints a different picture. Or perhaps they see things the way they are for them. How the established player play is of no relevance to a new player because they cannot play like that.

    This game is one that rewards patience, it also includes several "filters" if you have filters, expect to lose crap. That is normal. However without poor players those who would be "average" on other games tend to be pathetic here. The balance system sort of works but it's still dodgy. My experience of MP3 was that I could win fights by smashing people while they were down initially and only then. Eventually I built a semi decent rit and found aside from the demi gods I could probably beat anyone, I'd hit the exp cap and off I went. I hadn't succeeded in the LR task because while growing a few of this and that crit in order to sac to get certain crits to higher levels later I had hit the exp cap. I still need a bunch of wins and some time to get the required crit and get to LR. However now I'm an MP4. And this is where the game is just waiting, clicking a few links and biding time. I don't feel like I can beat anyone right now. Even weak people demolish me with a bunch of crits on 200 health. This isn't counter rituals, these are just the same crits I have 2 levels higher a lot of the time. I feel that because I hit the exp cap without doing it a certain way, I'm gimped. For a game with no advice it's very punishing if you don't do things a certain way. There's a huge number of crits I don't have access too, and so I *cannot* make a counter rit for most of the stuff I face because I can only really make a couple of distinct rits, really. It's very hard to learn at this point because I need stronger crits to win and I need to win for stronger crits. I could sit around asking for people to send out cheap rits for losses but that's a matter of chance, hit and miss.

    (A personal niggle and won I doubt will make a huge difference, but one that makes learning as a new player a lot harder) The combat log goes too fast to interpret in combat and there's not enough info in the summary at the end. I would love to see a sum of damage done, taken, healed, stolen, for each crit, freezes done. I also play WoW and believe me I'm looking for something completely different, because lets face it, what WoW does, it's the best in the world at. However the supporting community is the winner, using world of logs, I can break down a raid after it's run and look at my strategy and see who did what, who wasn't effective and so on, then I can adjust accordingly. I know that this sort of request is pretty niche but being able to see what's gone on in a fight more clearly and in more detail would help some players learn. However largely they'd just sit and wish they could win more. This would let you learn more, more easily however, while still being useless to dumber players, however I suspect the bar would be set a bit too high regarding who it benefits.

    The "how are players supposed to know if they cannot know?" conundrum is a good one. A few more vague hints might be good. For example drumming it into players to read ALL SIGNPOSTS, or that eggs usually require several levels of investment before they repay, but once they do so, will make you glad you did might encourage people to avoid silly errors (not that I didn't figure this but not everyone does).

    I think the biggest issue not already mentioned is the number of players. Because this game has a trickle of new players it actually perpetuates the issue with the trickle of new players. The game is immensely topheavy, I think I probably fought less than 15 different people at mp5, one of them was godmode kyphis, I saw the other godmode mp3 and didn't ever bother to attack. No point. I could not win unless he said "I have a weak rit" and even then I'd struggle. The lack of new players gives new players few targets. So while we're at those clunky start of mp stages, we get stuck. Right now I cannot win. I'm hoping with time and maybe a couple of dozen lucky wins I might get a break but for now, I don't see it. The problem with a small trickle of new players is that there are few people who are new to the mp at any time, so other new players have no one to fight. Closing the gates will exacerbate this to some extent, but really, when most of the people at your MP level have maxed versions of your crits and several crits you can't reach because you need more wins you'll never get, it's depressing. To fix the problem, you either need a massive and sustained surge in new players, or some way of giving them more chances to pull away from the bottom of an MP level. People level at different rates, so once you're past the pathetic stage, it's fine. Giving more hints are to unlocking more crits or more room might help. Possibly extending the MP3 cap a bit so people go into MP4 with a slightly better creature range may help especially if followed by a little signing. An MP3 who can spend twice as long levelling crits can hit mp4 with more maxed crits and so stand a better chance. Or perhaps, for those people whose balance ends up hugely out of whack, putting some in game training in (I know players exist for those but there is an element of "meh" to people letting you win) to let them tighten their rits up might help. Of course that's abusable so if you limit the battles per day allowed, and remove the exp bonus for sheath, so it stays more appealing to beat players when you can... Might help. It would mean that the pathetically weak would still do okay, but you would have to get it right to ensure that players who get the training option advance slower than those who don't. I mean sure, you can clear an MP level with it, but you're better off hitting players once you're a bit stronger, otherwise it'll take twice as many wins. This might weaken the spirit of the game, so I guess the important thing is that I feel this is the problem.

    In a nutshell, yes, the "this game is elitist" system works to an extent, but the more top heavy the community becomes the more exclusive to outsiders and the harder it is to get recruits. You can repeat those mantras about patience, filters, not being for everyone, but at the end of the day, new players don't want to be told by the most respected members of the community like DST, that it's all about older players, that they should quit whining and put up with being brutalised and lost so that after a very long period of time they can join their club (even though it feels at times like they're just chasing their tail), they'll just go play something which is more welcoming where they can make steady progress day on day until they're "in". You need to either find a massive and sustained inflow of recruits (and not be afraid of them dropping out past a way into mp4... because people can get all crits then) or make it easier for the trickle you have to get into the game.
  3. Upvote
    Nahblard got a reaction from Chewett in Gates Closed   
    Okay, I'm a new player still, really. I intend on hanging around but I'm going to give you how I feel. I might not be representative. I know some of my niggles ARE NOT. I'm enjoying this game because it *is* different. It's sold as being completely different, and tbh it's not quite, however "like the best bits of quite a few games put together, with several twists added" doesn't roll off the tongue as well as "like nothing you've ever played". I like the game, however that doesn't mean it's perfect as I'm sure most people understand.

    Most of the main issues were covered well a page back, and then shot down. However the attitude that comes with shooting down is part of the problem. New players are told to put up and shut up, discouraged from speaking up because they're new, treated rudely by certain people (some of whom are held in high esteem by the community), because they're new, not given a little margin for error because they're new. There are people out there looking out after new players, they are infact the majority and a lot of the community does look after them, however despite that, I've never played a game with such a large amount of discouragement and hostility to new players, both in the community and the game mechanics. When a new player says something that is oblivious to them because they're about 100 days short of amount of playtime needed to realistically have experienced it, you should be thinking "they can't be expected to see that" if they have no reason to know that it doesn't occur the way they see it, why should they be expected to see it? They will act based on the information they have, and that information paints a different picture. Or perhaps they see things the way they are for them. How the established player play is of no relevance to a new player because they cannot play like that.

    This game is one that rewards patience, it also includes several "filters" if you have filters, expect to lose crap. That is normal. However without poor players those who would be "average" on other games tend to be pathetic here. The balance system sort of works but it's still dodgy. My experience of MP3 was that I could win fights by smashing people while they were down initially and only then. Eventually I built a semi decent rit and found aside from the demi gods I could probably beat anyone, I'd hit the exp cap and off I went. I hadn't succeeded in the LR task because while growing a few of this and that crit in order to sac to get certain crits to higher levels later I had hit the exp cap. I still need a bunch of wins and some time to get the required crit and get to LR. However now I'm an MP4. And this is where the game is just waiting, clicking a few links and biding time. I don't feel like I can beat anyone right now. Even weak people demolish me with a bunch of crits on 200 health. This isn't counter rituals, these are just the same crits I have 2 levels higher a lot of the time. I feel that because I hit the exp cap without doing it a certain way, I'm gimped. For a game with no advice it's very punishing if you don't do things a certain way. There's a huge number of crits I don't have access too, and so I *cannot* make a counter rit for most of the stuff I face because I can only really make a couple of distinct rits, really. It's very hard to learn at this point because I need stronger crits to win and I need to win for stronger crits. I could sit around asking for people to send out cheap rits for losses but that's a matter of chance, hit and miss.

    (A personal niggle and won I doubt will make a huge difference, but one that makes learning as a new player a lot harder) The combat log goes too fast to interpret in combat and there's not enough info in the summary at the end. I would love to see a sum of damage done, taken, healed, stolen, for each crit, freezes done. I also play WoW and believe me I'm looking for something completely different, because lets face it, what WoW does, it's the best in the world at. However the supporting community is the winner, using world of logs, I can break down a raid after it's run and look at my strategy and see who did what, who wasn't effective and so on, then I can adjust accordingly. I know that this sort of request is pretty niche but being able to see what's gone on in a fight more clearly and in more detail would help some players learn. However largely they'd just sit and wish they could win more. This would let you learn more, more easily however, while still being useless to dumber players, however I suspect the bar would be set a bit too high regarding who it benefits.

    The "how are players supposed to know if they cannot know?" conundrum is a good one. A few more vague hints might be good. For example drumming it into players to read ALL SIGNPOSTS, or that eggs usually require several levels of investment before they repay, but once they do so, will make you glad you did might encourage people to avoid silly errors (not that I didn't figure this but not everyone does).

    I think the biggest issue not already mentioned is the number of players. Because this game has a trickle of new players it actually perpetuates the issue with the trickle of new players. The game is immensely topheavy, I think I probably fought less than 15 different people at mp5, one of them was godmode kyphis, I saw the other godmode mp3 and didn't ever bother to attack. No point. I could not win unless he said "I have a weak rit" and even then I'd struggle. The lack of new players gives new players few targets. So while we're at those clunky start of mp stages, we get stuck. Right now I cannot win. I'm hoping with time and maybe a couple of dozen lucky wins I might get a break but for now, I don't see it. The problem with a small trickle of new players is that there are few people who are new to the mp at any time, so other new players have no one to fight. Closing the gates will exacerbate this to some extent, but really, when most of the people at your MP level have maxed versions of your crits and several crits you can't reach because you need more wins you'll never get, it's depressing. To fix the problem, you either need a massive and sustained surge in new players, or some way of giving them more chances to pull away from the bottom of an MP level. People level at different rates, so once you're past the pathetic stage, it's fine. Giving more hints are to unlocking more crits or more room might help. Possibly extending the MP3 cap a bit so people go into MP4 with a slightly better creature range may help especially if followed by a little signing. An MP3 who can spend twice as long levelling crits can hit mp4 with more maxed crits and so stand a better chance. Or perhaps, for those people whose balance ends up hugely out of whack, putting some in game training in (I know players exist for those but there is an element of "meh" to people letting you win) to let them tighten their rits up might help. Of course that's abusable so if you limit the battles per day allowed, and remove the exp bonus for sheath, so it stays more appealing to beat players when you can... Might help. It would mean that the pathetically weak would still do okay, but you would have to get it right to ensure that players who get the training option advance slower than those who don't. I mean sure, you can clear an MP level with it, but you're better off hitting players once you're a bit stronger, otherwise it'll take twice as many wins. This might weaken the spirit of the game, so I guess the important thing is that I feel this is the problem.

    In a nutshell, yes, the "this game is elitist" system works to an extent, but the more top heavy the community becomes the more exclusive to outsiders and the harder it is to get recruits. You can repeat those mantras about patience, filters, not being for everyone, but at the end of the day, new players don't want to be told by the most respected members of the community like DST, that it's all about older players, that they should quit whining and put up with being brutalised and lost so that after a very long period of time they can join their club (even though it feels at times like they're just chasing their tail), they'll just go play something which is more welcoming where they can make steady progress day on day until they're "in". You need to either find a massive and sustained inflow of recruits (and not be afraid of them dropping out past a way into mp4... because people can get all crits then) or make it easier for the trickle you have to get into the game.
  4. Upvote
    Nahblard got a reaction from Tarquinus in Gates Closed   
    Okay, I'm a new player still, really. I intend on hanging around but I'm going to give you how I feel. I might not be representative. I know some of my niggles ARE NOT. I'm enjoying this game because it *is* different. It's sold as being completely different, and tbh it's not quite, however "like the best bits of quite a few games put together, with several twists added" doesn't roll off the tongue as well as "like nothing you've ever played". I like the game, however that doesn't mean it's perfect as I'm sure most people understand.

    Most of the main issues were covered well a page back, and then shot down. However the attitude that comes with shooting down is part of the problem. New players are told to put up and shut up, discouraged from speaking up because they're new, treated rudely by certain people (some of whom are held in high esteem by the community), because they're new, not given a little margin for error because they're new. There are people out there looking out after new players, they are infact the majority and a lot of the community does look after them, however despite that, I've never played a game with such a large amount of discouragement and hostility to new players, both in the community and the game mechanics. When a new player says something that is oblivious to them because they're about 100 days short of amount of playtime needed to realistically have experienced it, you should be thinking "they can't be expected to see that" if they have no reason to know that it doesn't occur the way they see it, why should they be expected to see it? They will act based on the information they have, and that information paints a different picture. Or perhaps they see things the way they are for them. How the established player play is of no relevance to a new player because they cannot play like that.

    This game is one that rewards patience, it also includes several "filters" if you have filters, expect to lose crap. That is normal. However without poor players those who would be "average" on other games tend to be pathetic here. The balance system sort of works but it's still dodgy. My experience of MP3 was that I could win fights by smashing people while they were down initially and only then. Eventually I built a semi decent rit and found aside from the demi gods I could probably beat anyone, I'd hit the exp cap and off I went. I hadn't succeeded in the LR task because while growing a few of this and that crit in order to sac to get certain crits to higher levels later I had hit the exp cap. I still need a bunch of wins and some time to get the required crit and get to LR. However now I'm an MP4. And this is where the game is just waiting, clicking a few links and biding time. I don't feel like I can beat anyone right now. Even weak people demolish me with a bunch of crits on 200 health. This isn't counter rituals, these are just the same crits I have 2 levels higher a lot of the time. I feel that because I hit the exp cap without doing it a certain way, I'm gimped. For a game with no advice it's very punishing if you don't do things a certain way. There's a huge number of crits I don't have access too, and so I *cannot* make a counter rit for most of the stuff I face because I can only really make a couple of distinct rits, really. It's very hard to learn at this point because I need stronger crits to win and I need to win for stronger crits. I could sit around asking for people to send out cheap rits for losses but that's a matter of chance, hit and miss.

    (A personal niggle and won I doubt will make a huge difference, but one that makes learning as a new player a lot harder) The combat log goes too fast to interpret in combat and there's not enough info in the summary at the end. I would love to see a sum of damage done, taken, healed, stolen, for each crit, freezes done. I also play WoW and believe me I'm looking for something completely different, because lets face it, what WoW does, it's the best in the world at. However the supporting community is the winner, using world of logs, I can break down a raid after it's run and look at my strategy and see who did what, who wasn't effective and so on, then I can adjust accordingly. I know that this sort of request is pretty niche but being able to see what's gone on in a fight more clearly and in more detail would help some players learn. However largely they'd just sit and wish they could win more. This would let you learn more, more easily however, while still being useless to dumber players, however I suspect the bar would be set a bit too high regarding who it benefits.

    The "how are players supposed to know if they cannot know?" conundrum is a good one. A few more vague hints might be good. For example drumming it into players to read ALL SIGNPOSTS, or that eggs usually require several levels of investment before they repay, but once they do so, will make you glad you did might encourage people to avoid silly errors (not that I didn't figure this but not everyone does).

    I think the biggest issue not already mentioned is the number of players. Because this game has a trickle of new players it actually perpetuates the issue with the trickle of new players. The game is immensely topheavy, I think I probably fought less than 15 different people at mp5, one of them was godmode kyphis, I saw the other godmode mp3 and didn't ever bother to attack. No point. I could not win unless he said "I have a weak rit" and even then I'd struggle. The lack of new players gives new players few targets. So while we're at those clunky start of mp stages, we get stuck. Right now I cannot win. I'm hoping with time and maybe a couple of dozen lucky wins I might get a break but for now, I don't see it. The problem with a small trickle of new players is that there are few people who are new to the mp at any time, so other new players have no one to fight. Closing the gates will exacerbate this to some extent, but really, when most of the people at your MP level have maxed versions of your crits and several crits you can't reach because you need more wins you'll never get, it's depressing. To fix the problem, you either need a massive and sustained surge in new players, or some way of giving them more chances to pull away from the bottom of an MP level. People level at different rates, so once you're past the pathetic stage, it's fine. Giving more hints are to unlocking more crits or more room might help. Possibly extending the MP3 cap a bit so people go into MP4 with a slightly better creature range may help especially if followed by a little signing. An MP3 who can spend twice as long levelling crits can hit mp4 with more maxed crits and so stand a better chance. Or perhaps, for those people whose balance ends up hugely out of whack, putting some in game training in (I know players exist for those but there is an element of "meh" to people letting you win) to let them tighten their rits up might help. Of course that's abusable so if you limit the battles per day allowed, and remove the exp bonus for sheath, so it stays more appealing to beat players when you can... Might help. It would mean that the pathetically weak would still do okay, but you would have to get it right to ensure that players who get the training option advance slower than those who don't. I mean sure, you can clear an MP level with it, but you're better off hitting players once you're a bit stronger, otherwise it'll take twice as many wins. This might weaken the spirit of the game, so I guess the important thing is that I feel this is the problem.

    In a nutshell, yes, the "this game is elitist" system works to an extent, but the more top heavy the community becomes the more exclusive to outsiders and the harder it is to get recruits. You can repeat those mantras about patience, filters, not being for everyone, but at the end of the day, new players don't want to be told by the most respected members of the community like DST, that it's all about older players, that they should quit whining and put up with being brutalised and lost so that after a very long period of time they can join their club (even though it feels at times like they're just chasing their tail), they'll just go play something which is more welcoming where they can make steady progress day on day until they're "in". You need to either find a massive and sustained inflow of recruits (and not be afraid of them dropping out past a way into mp4... because people can get all crits then) or make it easier for the trickle you have to get into the game.
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