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Sharpwind

What annoys me in MD

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If a new player has an idea, or a complaint and he's trying to participate by posting it
because he is excited or annoyed and sees a thread there for that exact reason
He gets mostly irony and negative criticism as an answer (from the same people)

I constantly read similar comments in the forum: you should know (the rules are somewhere in the chaos called announcements), we can do anything we like (as we've been given god powers you will never have and you can't do anything about it), only our ideas can get implemented (because we waited long enough??), you have to prove yourself first (?? play a hunderd years), md is only for our elite team (from one point on you'll stay stuck in the storymode get bored and leave because our puzzles are just for a few) our way is the only way (what you say does not matter), md is unfair deal with it(even if we alt abuse, even if we exploit bugs, we are in the team and don't get punished), and so on and so on....

It's an annoying attitude that disappoints and drives new players away

That's how I feel at least...

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I would like to see examples as well but I think you are exaggerating a bit. They dont have god powers, they do abide to the same rules you and I have to abide to. And they do get punished big time when they break the rules. The same way me and you will get punished.

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i think Curiose(for one) is slightly a case against your point, she is a relatively new player, and yet she seems to have influence in the realm, as she is Mur's secretary, which is contrary to only old age pensioners (like me) having all the power/influence, we have a lot of freedom, but it's still available for newer players.

If an idea is seen that has been asked before, consensus can usually judged, based from what happened previously, which is then the responce.

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[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1307480638' post='85905']
If an idea is seen that has been asked before, consensus can usually judged, based from what happened previously, which is then the responce.
[/quote]

[size="2"][font="Verdana"]erm... what? :))[/font][/size]

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[quote name='duxie' timestamp='1307482065' post='85906']
[size="2"][font="Verdana"]erm... what? :))[/font][/size]
[/quote]

Meaning, when an idea was discussed and rejected before, we tell you so. As is the case with 80% of the 'new' ideas of new players.

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There is a reason why the elite of MD have all the powers. They have shown dedication and loyalty to the game. They have given a lot to the game. They have shown that they can handle "power" and "responsibility."

If you want these same priveledges, strive for it, but never ask for it.

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[quote name='TTLexceeded' timestamp='1307468069' post='85900']
I would like to see examples as well but I think you are exaggerating a bit. They dont have god powers, they do abide to the same rules you and I have to abide to. And they do get punished big time when they break the rules. The same way me and you will get punished.
[/quote]
I think you're reading the post wrong.

It is not the question whether people have or don't have godlike powers, it is whether they act like they have godlike powers and are the official elite. It's a bloody old debate that resurfaces all the time: MD is a 'special game' that is 'not for everybody to understand or even like'. Should we be proud? Should we be haughty? Should we be disrespectful to those who try to get the game but have spent only a day or only a month on trying to get it? Do we even understand the game?

It is not about the time it takes to become accepted as elite, if such a thing even should exist or be debated. As with all subjective things, it depends on the person in question and the people regarding a person whether they're considered elite. I for one have a distinctly low opinion of some people who in all likelihood are self proclaimed or publicly heralded elite.

It is not about new people posting the same old ideas... or even about telling them they're the same old ideas. It is about telling them nicely that, unfortunately, the idea has been shot down before and then explain why. Not just say 'you don't get it because you're a noob'. And no I don't claim everybody does that all the time. Some people do, which is more than would be ideal. I am also under the impression it is not a MD only thing. The word noob wasn't created here. Edited by Kafuuka

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I will tell you how I got my job, or role as a secretary.

I posted on the forums that I will work for Christmas gifts.
My influence over the land is because I DOVE myself straight into the fires. Yes, I got burned, yes, I faced criticism and still do. Yes, I abide by the rules to the best of my judgment.

I have no 'super' powers. All I have are my wits, my knowledge, and my friends.

There is no 'elite,' only those who can be trusted to do the right thing, and respectively do so. They are considered 'elite' in some eyes, because they have proven that they are worthy of the things they do.

MD is how you make it.

If you whine and cry about it, and sit around twiddling your thumbs about how many things annoy you, then sure. You won't get far. I personally have a few qualms about a few things in the means of how MD is structured [socially], but do I often sit around, making a forum post with lists of how many things are wrong, and how I hate what certain people do? No. I suck it up, and I do what I need to do. Why? because people count on me to do the things that I need done, and for that, that gives me the drive to get up out of my bed, and help MD.

I am not even a year old. Yet, look how far I have gone.
You, as a player, should have known that this is no ordinary game.
Why do you think Mur let's people make choices in story mode?
Or why there are no ordinary 'classes' that originate in every other game?
It is because this is MagicDuel.

You are, what you are.
It is, what you make of it.

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Would it be considered adding fuel to the fire, if I, in a very 'ironic' or 'negatively criticising' manner of speaking, were to say that this kind of topic has been brought up a couple of times before?

Or would that be some kind of meta-meta comment? (with this line clearly transcending the theoretical boundary of 2 meta's and into the triple metasphere? To boldly go where none has gone before?)

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Mr. Bun Buns, you make my head hurt....

Edit: I would also like to point out, that people don't regularly get away with alt abuse, or bug abuse, or whatever abuse that's available to them.

MD is NOT fair, yes, that is correct-- HOWEVER... MD is also an equal opportunity for EVERYONE. The only reason why it is not fair, is because people deem it so because they did not get a shiny new badge, or a playful little toy item that they need for their role.

The only person whose way is the high way is Mur's. Clean cut and simple. That, and the LHOs, but that is dependent on them enforcing the rules, not anything else. Edited by Curiose

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1307488507' post='85916']
Would it be considered adding fuel to the fire, if I, in a very 'ironic' or 'negatively criticising' manner of speaking, were to say that this kind of topic has been brought up a couple of times before?
[/quote]

Obviously someone felt it would be, considering you rep you had for it.

As in every online game, some players have additional roles that facilitate the game's running. As to how they got the role? Hard work, perseverance, luck? Roles like this are for example my Job and previously the Game manager. Those were offical roles that were given because there was a need for someone to be doing said work. I become forum admin from being a moderator, and Mur picking me out of the several moderators we had there.

Then you have "Veterns" People who dont nesscarily have any offical power, but do hold a lot of sway because of what they have done. You can spend years trying to catagorize how much "power" or "influence" someone has in MD because everyone will value something differently. Some may say that Innocences Roleplay is superior to all of Clock Masters Skills, and therefore he is "better" But unlike combat stats, there isnt a number to compare.

Since i havent really seen or interacted with you Sharpwind, im a little nonplussed from where you are coming from. If you are thinking that you can do and change things just by wanting them, you are sorely mistaken. It takes a lot of effort. A very good example would be the Dojo and Awiiya. The Dojo had a scene, a drawing and even the ability to ban people for misbehaving. But because they didnt keep trying to work for the idea, it slowly petered out along with the Dojo. Awiiya on the other hand has become part of the scenery... Literally. Good work normally gets results.

So yeah, i will repeat my first point, Got some examples we can have a look at? Recently i thought actually it was a little better and normally people were quite friendly to point out it existed here or there. And with the forum there is a magic button called "search" which will normally find most topics relating to your keywords.

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I think it's time I answer to the topic because I feel that I am viewed as one of the players who constantly cuts down people's "wings" aka new ideas and I am no hypocrite to hide under the fact that no names or examples were given (Sharpwind, I appreciate a person who has the guts to point fingers but I do understand that you only want to underline a fact and not to start a war).

Yes, I'm guilty (how many times did I already say that? :D). I do it and unfortunately not in the nicest manner. I lack diplomacy skills and I know it. On the other hand I like do it. I found out that I get more reactions and responses if I play the "rude card" then if I try to explain nicely.

Yes, there is an elite but as Grido said, it is not about age. It is about trust and loyalty. And even "elite people" get punished if they screw up. And is not Mur who "made" the elite, us, the players made the "elite" based on player's attitude, actions, sayings. Imo, Mur just picked from what we've offered. Again, my opinion, is just that anyone can do it. I don't think there are some secret initiation stages or bla bla like those for the ones that "aspire" to be elite.

When RPCs were around, everybody wanted to be one. I think RPC job sucked big time (and no, this is not because I never was one :)) - i think you all know the story) and for me it was a pleasure to provoke them and to show the ones (not all ROCs were bad) that thought they are the center of the earth that they literally sucked. And time proved that I was right: stripped of their powers (given by Mur not acquired with their own forces) most of the former RPCs stopped playing or disappear into anonymity. Why? Because they were not "chose" by players. They were chose by Mur. They were "imposed" to us. Heh...I even know one very powerful player that went down like a snowball on a slop just because he though he was the supreme MD being and someone proved he wasn't :P:)) (sorry..I can't let that go :D).

I think I diverted from the original idea so I'll stop now.

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[quote name='Sharpwind' timestamp='1307465530' post='85895']
If a new player has an idea, or a complaint and he's trying to participate by posting it
because he is excited or annoyed and sees a thread there for that exact reason
He gets mostly irony and negative criticism as an answer (from the same people)

I constantly read similar comments in the forum: you should know (the rules are somewhere in the chaos called announcements), we can do anything we like (as we've been given god powers you will never have and you can't do anything about it), only our ideas can get implemented (because we waited long enough??), you have to prove yourself first (?? play a hunderd years), md is only for our elite team (from one point on you'll stay stuck in the storymode get bored and leave because our puzzles are just for a few) our way is the only way (what you say does not matter), md is unfair deal with it(even if we alt abuse, even if we exploit bugs, we are in the team and don't get punished), and so on and so on....

It's an annoying attitude that disappoints and drives new players away

That's how I feel at least...
[/quote]
Ideas and complaints are all well and good, but they rarely have much consistency, which is why they so easily slip through someone's fingers when pressure from these people is applied. If you want something to stick, you generally need action to back it.

I hope my point is clear enough, I'm tired >>

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errmm! Sharpwind just for the sake of argument.... since now i am one of the old players you mentioned but i;m not that old to forget how i was in the beginning i have to ask you: do you really think that we haven;t felt frustrated when proposing something and being rejected ? do you really think all our ideas where absolutely perfect ?? Do you really think that ?
i must contradict you . We were all noobs even if was ages ago, we all had at least 3 to 5 very very bad ideas that never got implemented, we can't do anything we like - we just understand the rules better than you and act accordingly. Some of us proven themselves in the firsts months of activity , some of us later .How ? By not giving up !being persistent! trying another way in order to get what we want , if the first failed ! You get noticed by what you do , what you act like and most of all how you make yourself seen by others ! MD is unfair , you say. yes it is! It is meant to be , and we can;t change that as well as we can;t change the fact that life is unfair. None of the "new" ideas have been shut down without an explanation or at least pointing to the explanation. If you feel annoyed means you can;t accept a good criticism in a constructive way ! So, don;t give up at the first head banging in a wall , work around it, dig it , jump it , break it brick by brick . But do something about it ! Of course in a constructive way! Edited by Indyra

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As Indira said : do it "in a constructive way"!

And to give an example for Pipstick : GGG ( if don't know that it means ... don't look it up)
I hated it from the first time I heard about it and in the end ... success came ... like ... 2 years after ??

So, even bad ideas come to life and even the strongest support can be broken if the time / events are meant for it.

Just keep in mind:
Even if this is JUST A GAME, this is our game. It is not about personal gain (inside & outside) as many have tried.
All improvements should be the good of all, all abuses WILL be caught, judged & punished sooner or later.

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Sharpwind, that is the same in all other games I have played (and there are a lot!). Oldies (some of them) have a feeling that they know the truth. Newbies (some of them) have the feeling that they have the great idea. And let me state my opinion straight, as a newbie here: MD is really a pleasure on that matter, because it does not happen very often!

My suggestion: just ignore the Nay ones who don't justify their opposition. Or better, ask them to explain to you in simple words because you need their help to understand (usually efficient to help sort Trollish ones from trully opiniated ones). And if you still find your idea is good, stick on it and make it happen in the realm. I've seen someone taking roots, someone being given an alliance based on a dead tree (please don't tell Z I said that!), some be given roles in a council, etc...

I have no idea how all this happened... except that they probably asked for nothing but sticked at their role/paying style/whatever.

And if your idea is good, then a few players will catch it and support you. And if it is really good, then most of the players will join the gang.

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I would not agree to simply ignoring nay-sayers.

The reason why I say that is because if you ignore them, and take in only the : "Oh, I like this, I like that... hey, that's a pretty sweet idea, you did a great job! : D"
Then you kind of only get a bloated ego, a skewed vision of how things could possibly even fit in MD.

Take for example...
I proposed a Legend's Night.
A night in which people who were considered 'legends' and basically the 'elite' were to come, and tell their stories. There would be a time, a place, and overall just a big gathering.

Over time, I learned that there were people who liked the idea, agreed with it, and suggested ways to tweak it. Considering, all things that I have a habit of 'running' or organizing, become my baby, I liked that feedback.

However, there were more negative sides to those things than there were actual positive feedback. There were things that I did consider before even writing a thread regarding it. But, I never got more truer feedback than in the responses that I were given.

I did not just get my idea tossed out the window, but I also learned something about the mechanics of MD. As MD grows older, the oldies become older with it. The newbies become younger, and will always be considered "newbies' as MD grows on.

Simply speaking: Veterans of today, will become the fossils of tomorrow. The fossils of today will become dirt and dust and the whole shebang.

If that didn't make sense, let me try and say what Burns told me, if I remember correctly: : p
MD is 5 years old. There are people who have been here in MD since the day they started. As MD grows older, it is harder to become a veteran, because you are 5 years behind those that are. As MD grows older, so do the people with it, thus giving a kind of time lapse between them.

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Ideas gain momentum, and there is a sort of 'survival of the fittest' aspect to any new idea. As others have said above, tenacity is really important - if you abandon your idea too easily, no matter whether the criticism is constructive or not, it didn't deserve to survive. Curry is right to say that people trying to effect change should be responsive to the public reaction, but some ideas have taken hold mostly because certain players wouldn't let them go. Bob the Tree is a great example: when I first learned about it, and the role inherited (I think) by Zleiphnir, I thought it was absurd. "He's guarding a squiggle on a backdrop!" I said. But though people have had varying opinions about the tree, its reality, and its relevance, none of it has broken Zleiphneir's dedication, and he built a very strong little community... around a squiggle. That's impressive. The Children of the Eclipse, mostly the brainchild (believe it or not) of players now long gone, are another example, though I've been fading out of the realm a bit as my work life has accelerated. If you pay attention to MD, you soon notice that there is no night (yet?). The Moon appears in a few places, but they're not easy to find and it is quite clear that the moon of MD is different from the moon of Earth. Moon Knight? Ridiculous! (and also the name of a comic-book superhero, which I later learned to my dismay) But the Eclipse is, though wheezing a bit and host to a number of semi-comatose fossils, still alive. Not necessarily because it is a good idea. Not necessarily because it is appropriate to MD (which could be a whole other thread). It lives because a few dedicated people still care about it, and some are even writing new material. Both Bob the Tree and the CoE can be and have been flashpoints for (or closely associated with) events in MD, and that's the beauty of MD. This is one of the very few games where players can change the scenery a little bit, and we should all be grateful Mur is open-minded enough to let us play in his sandbox.

[b]Edited for autistic mistake[/b]
[size="1"]P.S. What's with all the neg-repping on this thread? Geez![/size] Edited by Tarquinus

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Get yourself at least one 'elite' friend and wear their shoes for a while. Observe their behaviour in various important events and how they take up responsibilities to make the event better. Get actively involved. You'll get all the attention you want. In a period of an year and a half, there'll be noobs who'll think of you as someone important and vets who'll recognise your perseverance and dedication. You'll slowly become a part of the 'elite' then. It wont take you more than 2-3 years for that. Provided you are ACTIVELY INVOLVED.
I won't quote Curi, But i'll definitely quote BFH. I've seen him when he was a no one and I see him now.

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To be honest I'm still confused what the thread is really about. Is it the shooting down of ideas, or general rudeness when doing so?

I'm not doing irony or anything, I'm honestly getting confused on which one is the issue here. Can someone please explain to me? Thx

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[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1307609527' post='85987']
To be honest I'm still confused what the thread is really about. Is it the shooting down of ideas, or general rudeness when doing so?

I'm not doing irony or anything, I'm honestly getting confused on which one is the issue here. Can someone please explain to me? Thx
[/quote]
Going by rep, there's at least six people who think it is about rudeness. Going by content of other posters seems to indicate shooting down ideas and 'how tough it is to become elite'.

I have no idea which logic people use to arrive at the conclusion they ought to explain sharpwind about how to become 'elite'. There is no such recipe. What worked for Curiosa, our beloved example here, won't work for someone else. Trying to worship another tree is definitely not going to work either. I am pretty certain that someone who's been around long enough would realise it already and the topic starter is not brand new at all. If not, there's little hope telling it outright will suddenly work.

If I am right, those who're ranting about how to become elite/powerful are doing exactly what is considered the problem: they shoot down a topic without even thinking about what is being said. There are dozens of ways to disrespect somebody. One is to be rude directly. Another to be haughty. Or to be subtle, provoking and relentless at that. One is to refuse to listen (read) what people say and keep talking yourself. It is a tricky thing to discern between genuine mistakes and brutal lack of effort to understand. Yet if it keeps being repeated, the end result will be the same: either you assume people are lazy bums or they are incompetent fools calling themselves elites. I'm still trying to figure out which is worse, but I am positive this is the 'attitude' which is being talked about in the original post. One of the things that drives new people away. Another example of things which can be often read on the forum.

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Seen from outside its easy to think that there is a certain group of interest, ancient players that leave no chance to the new players and so on.
In the same way people expect to see "character classes" or wish to reset their account to start over and such, new players judge MD by what they think it is and by what they are used games or online communities are in general.

I have no intention to advertise it differently or keep noobs in silk and promise them things will be better. If they survive MD they learn something out of it. I keep it as my personal (_PERSONAL_) goal to be fair in a world in intentionally advertise as unfair. Fair does not mean confortable in any way. Fair means you take all factors into consideration and judge things without compromise. For me, some important factors are loyalty, respect earned among players, perseverance to guard personal concepts, ability to see when you are wrong and admit it, ability to see more than one factor when analyzing an issue. I consider those as well when judging things and when defining what is fair and what is not, so there is no way i treat everyone the same way. However i do give everyone the same initial chances and I even do that after they ruin it, again, and again, if i consider they changed.

Sharpwind, when you get born in the outer-world, as a living human being in a society, nobody tells you the entire set of existing laws, nobody treats you the same way among people that are much older than you or more experienced in a field of activity. You are not even born equally capable with everyone else. You need to earn that respect and reputation. You do that by fighting your way into an unfair world. I considered a good idea always, regardless if it was presented by a new or an old player. Many times new players don't consider several things that older players know better about so of course a suggestion is ridiculed or ignored at first (i never do that, its not too polite, but i do ignore uninformed opinions). The balance you are used to call balance, where abuse is abuse and needs to be punished , has nothing to do with the way i see md, where to discover an abuse is a merit if you help fix it, and a crime if you dont.

Complaining without being sure what you are complaining about is in my personal view a good enough reason to ignore what you are complaining about. Because enough people were concerned enough to reply to you about this topic (that as MB said was brought up several times already), makes me reply to it as well..for them..but don't worry, i am not much concerned of how you consider md in general. Your irony in the initial post makes me act the same, and yes, if you were older player, more involved in the community, in any way at all, i would feel more concerned about your remarks.

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Hmm...

I'm not really sure what I should explain and why (though I guess it seems my post was not clear enough for most)

It was never my intention to offended any of you, nor was it to tell you what you expect to hear

As I said before this is how I feel, some understand others don't

Should I have posted how I felt and why ?

That was exactly what I was thinking at the time... !

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I have been thinking of replying to this since it was posted, I am not active in game any longer due to personal reasons though I do check in from time to time and try and keep track of what is going on.

My perception of what Sharpwind has said rings pretty true in my experiences playing this game. I enjoyed playing for quite some time I currently have 683 days though it is more or less around the 550 mark when I stopped trying to play the game.

I have mixed feelings about my time in MD some are great some not so much. When I first started the game I didnt know alot I was finally helped and started understanding what the game was about. I had quite a few gripes with the game about the elites of which I never belonged with. I was told pretty early on that the easiest way to get "shiny" things was to make friends with certain people I personally really didnt want to do that or believe it at the time though later in experience it did feel like it was the case. Now I dont pretend I was a fantastic player role play wise but I did try. I put effort into trying to build a persona and to some extent I think it was a success, the issue I always had on that regard is that I had always thought one earned a tag with or without a description through having a well known role that was generally accepted in the wider community, I dont think I ever really obtained that level. But there are those who gained them during my time for seemingly no apparant reason, I had always thought they were supposed to be special and highly regulated but honestly some of them are just a sad joke and I always felt like a bit of a slap in the face for people who actually tried and wanted some level of validation.

There is alot of rudeness in the game which is appalling sometimes. During the Necrovion, Golemus war for After all the battling the whole land weapon thing happened. Everyone in the area who tried to follow (in RP) was teleported there except for myself. Sitting there being the only one left out does seem to make you feel a bit retarted in even trying, I did go to the location later out of my own curiosity by using the jump to leader function but still it did seem a bit sad to me personally anyway its not like there where others in my boat.

There is a huge sense in the game of only the established are worth taking time for, the people I knew that I tried to get into the game all left quite early on for this reason. There is an overwhelming sense of politics in the game that takes up a very large part of it, its bad to be different but different is what is asked for.

I dont regret my time playing the people I met kept me going for so long I think. There are some really great people. The only reason I post this is it feels like whenever someone says something unpopular everyone is up in arms defending the status quo and from my assumption of what Sharpwind has said there are many many people who feel like this just not every one has the courage to come out and agree or state it for themselves.

To Sharpwind dont let it get you down try and find your own corner of fun if you cant find something else to do MD will stay the same.

To everyone else I have little doubt you will tear my post apart and try and make me look like a fool or a greedy person and I couldnt care less this is all my personal experience and opinions if you want to try take the time to twist my words then I feel sorry for you. Perhaps I will come back into the game actively one day I am not sure I cant rule it out but I do not see it happening anytime soon.

And finally sorry for the long rant but well its good to air it out no

=D

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