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:P
As much as I respect you Jazira I don't really like the alliance, or guild, anymore. To me it has lost it's true meaning and is now just some sort of play thing to be handed around to various people.
Rhaegar was the only one that kept SOME of the true meaning of the Savelites in the guild. Grido didn't spent quite a lot of time re-establishing the guild/alliance just so that it could be demolished once more. Personally I think that the guild should either :

[list=1]
[*]Be re-taken over by Rhaegar. This being because, as I said before, he at least kept some of the original meanings the guild/alliance.
[*]The current leader to revise about the guild/alliance and Savelfuser and actually take it all on board before thinking of the roles within the guild/alliance and it's own rules, regulations and history.
[*]Or, this being my favourite suggestion at the moment, to be disbanded. The alliance has lost it's purpose, role and to be honest, originality.
[/list]
Im sorry to sound like the moaner but this is how I feel and hopefully how others feel as well, with some of it at least.

Back to the topic, read this post, take it on board, mix it with your OWN ideas and hopefully you can re-establish the alliance as it should be. :)

Goodluck!

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[quote name='Sasha Lilias' timestamp='1284154659' post='68172']
The current leader to revise about the guild/alliance and Savelfuser and actually take it all on board before thinking of the roles within the guild/alliance and it's own rules, regulations and history.
[/quote]
I believe this is the only attempt to be constructive, but I'm afraid it doesn't make any sense. Why should someone act before thinking? (As I think you seem to have stated.)

I think Jazira is putting forth a solid effort, even if I disagree with a few things on a personal, or emotional, level. I would just like to bring up one concern: where is the "church" in the Savelites Church? My understanding of a church is that it is a place (or congregation) for worship. I see that you plan sermons, but none have the element of worship.

If you are intentionally minimizing religious elements, could you clarify your intent?

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Sasha Ilias : "To me it has lost it's true meaning and is now just some sort of play thing to be handed around to various people. "

I have tried to find some hint at what the original alliance was for, and I was unsuccessful. Perhaps I need to look harder, but if you can help me understand what it's true purpose was, I will gladly change the purpose and roles.


I don't have as much time online as I used to, so I'm having to work at a slower pace. I have thought some on worship, but again, I am unsure of what the Savelites worshipped before now. I wasn't around when Savelfuser was, and when I did come to MD, I still didn't see much of the Savelites, what they did beyond healing those who were sparring, or what they worshipped. Again, if you can point me in the right direction, I'll gladly change it to that or add it in. =)

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[quote name='Ivorak' timestamp='1284161051' post='68176']
I believe this is the only attempt to be constructive, but I'm afraid it doesn't make any sense. Why should someone act before thinking? (As I think you seem to have stated.)

I think Jazira is putting forth a solid effort, even if I disagree with a few things on a personal, or emotional, level. I would just like to bring up one concern: where is the "church" in the Savelites Church? My understanding of a church is that it is a place (or congregation) for worship. I see that you plan sermons, but none have the element of worship.

If you are intentionally minimizing religious elements, could you clarify your intent?
[/quote]

One of my happiest moments in MD was when Savelfuser left MD for good and at the time I had hoped that the Savelites would die with him. Unfortunately that hasn't happened.

But in the end, the constant swapping and takeover of the savelite alliance has been a more fitting demise by taking away any semblance of dignity it might have had. At this point I am just as happy for it to be swapped like an old toy that is no longer loved.

Jazira I wish you good luck but unfortunately the Savelite alliance is fundamentally corrupted and it will ultimately suck the enjoyment out of you as it has all of its previous "owners".

Cutler

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[u]@ Sasha:[/u]

[i]Be re-taken over by Rhaegar. This being because, as I said before, he at least kept some of the original meanings the guild/alliance.[/i]

You know well enough why that won't happen
[i]
The current leader to revise about the guild/alliance and Savelfuser and actually take it all on board before thinking of the roles within the guild/alliance and it's own rules, regulations and history.[/i]

Jazira is working on the structure, If people help her, I believe she can do a very good job,
And I totally agree with Ivorak on this point.
[i]
Or, this being my favourite suggestion at the moment, to be disbanded. The alliance has lost it's purpose, role and to be honest, originality.[/i]

It will be if the idea flunks.

[u]@ Cutler:[/u]

[i](...) by taking away any semblance of dignity it might have had. (...) to be swapped like an old toy that is no longer loved. [/i]

I don't think Jazira sees the Savelites as a toy, and still, old toys can be loved again.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


I understand negativity around the savelites but I think we need to give Jazira a chance, and see what comes from it.
If people are more busy with the [u]past[/u] of the Alliance, than what it actually does [u]Now[/u] (or will Become), then it'll be tough yes.
Keep an open mind...

On another note: I fully support Jazira in her attempt to try to make it a good alliance again.

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I am kinda sick of hearing this rhetoric about Rhaegar and the past.
Lets give a few history lessons shall we.
First up, Rhaegar was let into the alliance along with other people when Grido and Z tried to rebuild it. He did not rebuild it from nothing like Jazira is now attempting to do.
Secondly, Rhaegar himself seemed to change the direction and ideas for the Church on several occassions. At one point he started to take up residence in the Tribunal Temple and he spoke about using it as a base for the Savels. That seemed to just peter out after a while. Then he wanted the Savels to be historians in Loreroot, then he started the avatar shop. There is more, but they are the big ones I can think of right off the top of my head.
Thirdly, he's a blockhead with as much subtlety as a bull in a china shop. He has zero tact and succeeded in royally getting up a lot of people's noses with his crap. He still does. He had an issue with me from day 1. Why? Because he listened to and believed venomous crap that was still boiling over from old wounds in Loreroot. No matter what happened, he never ever got past that. In short, he was a source of conflict within Loreroot and outside it too.
I put up with Rhaegar for as long as I did for one simple fact. I was trying to be fair. I did not want my personal feelings towards him to cloud my judgement and I wanted to give him a chance. Many people felt that I was too soft and I believe that Rhaegar himself started to believe that I was somehow weak and he could push me as much as he wanted. Wrong on that score.
He's a control freak. He seemed incapable of delegating tasks and only seemed to want to work with people when he felt like it or if he wanted to. By and large he showed little interest in working with anyone outside the Savels.
He openly fostered a belief in at least some of the Savels, that if they were in the alliance before the kingship elections, then they didn't have to recognise the king. For any leader of any group in Loreoot to do such a thing is unacceptable. I also found out that things I said concerning his members were either not passed on or twisted. And he insisted that he deal with his members, not me.

Activity of the Savels...
Towards the end of his tenure, there was little or none. Most of the members seemed inactive and at least one member seemed to spend more time outside the alliance than actually in it (not a personal dig by the way, merely the way things seemed).
When I booted him there was almost no reaction from them. Infact, some of them seemed completely oblivious to what had happened. Personally I was disappointed. I had expected more of a reaction, any reaction.
When Marv took over he tried to contact the members and got almost no response until he kicked people.

Savelite items....
Rhaegar aggressively sought the items that he felt belonged to the church. He was very insistent (to put it mildly) that they belonged to the church. Where are they now? He refused to return the ones he had to Marvolo, when Marvolo took over. I guess that they only belong to the church if Rhaegar is running it. Maybe it should be called the church of Rhaegar?

Alliance location..
Rhaegar himself stated to me very clearly that the Savels belonged in Loreroot and would never leave.

Savelite memorial....
Yeah, I find this a mixture of funny and sickening really. For starters it is really a homage to himself and one or two others, as well as a two fingered salute to myself and the rest of Loreroot. He's missing at least one name of an older member from that list and he has included names of people that had long gone before his demise and also some people that were barely there or did anything at all. The Savels are also not dead, so having a 'memorial' is in poor taste in my opinion.

The ultimate irony though, is that the alliance should have a memorial, because it should be put to bed in my opinion. But it seems that people in MD have an inability to let go of the past and move on. If this new incarnation of the alliance does not make something of itself it will be going to alliance heaven. Make no mistakes about it.
As for a memorial, that should be something that is done by the MD community (or at the very least the land of the alliance), not by one or two people with an axe to grind.

Rhaegar had his chance. He blew it royally, so stop this nonsense of saying he should have it back. It is time to give someone else a chance or put the alliance to bed once and for all.

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[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1284194433' post='68182']
First up, Rhaegar was let into the alliance along with other people when Grido and Z tried to rebuild it. He did not rebuild it from nothing like Jazira is now attempting to do.
[b]He changed it, and you cannot deny that. It doesn't matter if he rebuilt it or not.[/b]

Secondly, Rhaegar himself seemed to change the direction and ideas for the Church on several occassions. At one point he started to take up residence in the Tribunal Temple and he spoke about using it as a base for the Savels. That seemed to just peter out after a while. Then he wanted the Savels to be historians in Loreroot, then he started the avatar shop. There is more, but they are the big ones I can think of right off the top of my head.
[b]Oh no, he tried to do other things! His life didn't revolve around the Savels 100%! He tried to give the Savels a NEW ROLE? BLASPHEMY! Nobody else has ever given an alliance a new role![/b]

Thirdly, he's a blockhead with as much subtlety as a bull in a china shop. He has zero tact and succeeded in royally getting up a lot of people's noses with his crap. He still does. He had an issue with me from day 1. Why? Because he listened to and believed venomous crap that was still boiling over from old wounds in Loreroot. No matter what happened, he never ever got past that. In short, he was a source of conflict within Loreroot and outside it too.
[b]That doesn't change the fact that you ONLY "put up with him" and didn't try to establish friendly ties. (Simply taking the information from your post, I don't pretend to know about your personal issues)[/b]

I put up with Rhaegar for as long as I did for one simple fact. I was trying to be fair. I did not want my personal feelings towards him to cloud my judgement and I wanted to give him a chance. Many people felt that I was too soft and I believe that Rhaegar himself started to believe that I was somehow weak and he could push me as much as he wanted. Wrong on that score.
He's a control freak. He seemed incapable of delegating tasks and only seemed to want to work with people when he felt like it or if he wanted to. By and large he showed little interest in working with anyone outside the Savels.
[b]Why should he work with anybody if he doesn't want to? As an example, I'm not overly friendly with redneck. Am I going to go to him and say "Hey, wanna help me with a quest?", even if we're in the same alliance? It's not hard to ignore someone or something. For most people, anyways.[/b]

He openly fostered a belief in at least some of the Savels, that if they were in the alliance before the kingship elections, then they didn't have to recognise the king. For any leader of any group in Loreoot to do such a thing is unacceptable. I also found out that things I said concerning his members were either not passed on or twisted. And he insisted that he deal with his members, not me.
[b]Who cares about his beliefs? Lay down the law, don't stand there and "put up with him". There's a PM system and chat for speaking to people, you don't need to go through him. That's plain lack of effort on your part, if you really wanted to speak to them.[/b]

Activity of the Savels...
Towards the end of his tenure, there was little or none. Most of the members seemed inactive and at least one member seemed to spend more time outside the alliance than actually in it (not a personal dig by the way, merely the way things seemed).
[b]You want to talk about inactives? Grayhawk, White Reaper, Mysteria Blue (seemingly back, but still had a long absence), Siala Lone Wolf, Cross Swords and Mojomuppet (not 100% sure) in GotR, and I won't even mention the ones in CoE.
This is not intended as a shot at GotR or CoE, just don't complain about inactives if you've got plenty under your command.[/b]

When I booted him there was almost no reaction from them. Infact, some of them seemed completely oblivious to what had happened. Personally I was disappointed. I had expected more of a reaction, any reaction.
When Marv took over he tried to contact the members and got almost no response until he kicked people.
[b]Not everybody reads the forum, where it all happened, and as you said, many were inactive.[/b]

Savelite items....
Rhaegar aggressively sought the items that he felt belonged to the church. He was very insistent (to put it mildly) that they belonged to the church. Where are they now? He refused to return the ones he had to Marvolo, when Marvolo took over. I guess that they only belong to the church if Rhaegar is running it. Maybe it should be called the church of Rhaegar?
[b]Rhaegar bought the items with his own funds, I'm assuming. If another Muffin Man came along and replaced you without your permission, would you willingly give him your muffin-related items if you still considered muffins to be part of your role?[/b]

Alliance location..
Rhaegar himself stated to me very clearly that the Savels belonged in Loreroot and would never leave.
[b]Opinions change, get over it.[/b]

Savelite memorial....
Yeah, I find this a mixture of funny and sickening really. For starters it is really a homage to himself and one or two others, as well as a two fingered salute to myself and the rest of Loreroot. He's missing at least one name of an older member from that list and he has included names of people that had long gone before his demise and also some people that were barely there or did anything at all. The Savels are also not dead, so having a 'memorial' is in poor taste in my opinion.
[b]Marv's Savels were no better than what you seemingly believe Rhaegar's were, and Jazira's plans don't even look like the Savelite Church, they look like the Loreroot Church. Who really cares if he's missing a few names, or included some extra, just because? In the end, it's up to him who goes on, not you. If you disagree, talk to him about it, otherwise, keep your opinion of it to yourself.[/b]

The ultimate irony though, is that the alliance should have a memorial, because it should be put to bed in my opinion. But it seems that people in MD have an inability to let go of the past and move on. If this new incarnation of the alliance does not make something of itself it will be going to alliance heaven. Make no mistakes about it.
[b]Yey, threats to people who actually wish to see Savelites restored.[/b]

As for a memorial, that should be something that is done by the MD community (or at the very least the land of the alliance), not by one or two people with an axe to grind.
[b]So, instead of the former leader of the alliance in question, you'd rather either have everybody (most of the people in this group have never had anything to do with the alliance), or you (who has never been in the alliance) decide who goes on the list? Not to mention, of course, that NOBODY can dictate what who puts on clickables except Mur. You want something else for the memorial? Do it yourself.[/b]

Rhaegar had his chance. He blew it royally, so stop this nonsense of saying he should have it back. It is time to give someone else a chance or put the alliance to bed once and for all.
[b]Yeah, he blew it because of a personal issue between you and him. It was not because of all of that "abuse" you put up with, and it was not because he created an unofficial Lorerootian group without your permission. These things are easily ignored.[/b]
[/quote]

Now, I don't know about the rest of the community, but I'm tired of hearing you ***** and moan and try to justify yourself. I am also VERY tired of hearing Marv spout off every time Rhaegar and the Savels are mentioned in the same paragraph. Everybody knows both of your positions and opinions on the subject already, so the only reasons I can see for these posts are attempts at justification or just pure hatred, and either way, both reasons make you a "blockhead with as much subtlety as a bull in a china shop", in my opinion.

My edits in bold.
Sorry for longpost/rant.

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The irony... Sasha, do you remember the first days of the woodcutters'?
Was it impossible to talk to Jazira in private, the three days she announced on the mood panel that she wanted to revive the Savelites? Or even after it was 'too late'? She seems to be very open to suggestions and imo kindness was her weakness in the past too. (Generally I consider it a very good quality, but in MD it can be bad.)

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Pipstickz gives you the most possible rational response, yet "people" manage to get him into six negative points, cause he's making responses to the most beloved.

I will most likely make a lengthy file, about my presence in Loreroot. Have no fear it will be done as objectively as possible, explaining WHY I had such and such point of view at such and such situation, how I started and how events evolved around me (how it influenced course of events... I realize it sounds egoistic, the point is that many people know nothing about the subject, most will not care, I'm making it for few people that will care, to get the whole picture from my side, and not Firsanthalas' propaganda) so I don't have to make same responses on false accusations by Firsanthalas on the forum, whenever my name is mentioned.
The amount of bollocks you make Firsanthalas is outstanding.

Let's start with some short responces, and be patient for that file to get the lengthy ones.

Main point of the Savelites were the general values it stood for. You were too blind to see it.
-I did make an alliance from nothing. first members I had when I arrived where: Clock Master, MWbrady, White Reaper. The last two left. I think I did a pretty damn good job, if you look at least at the individuals I brought to the Church, considering that I projects that were ongoing, who should have represented the very base of the Savelites Church such as Savelite Codex with the help of Blackthorn. I'll explain all that in that file...
-If you know how to read, you would see that an Outpost doesn't mean changing homelands. The Idea was to help the travelers with healing, nothing major of assistance, but something symbolic, fitting to the role. And of course I try to assign many roles to the Savelites... what, should I focus on just one? I am not that limited as you are.
-What's wrong with setting an Avatar Shop? What did you do anyway?
-Thank you very much on your compliments. I love you too.
-Never thought you were weak, I knew that you weren't. You're an opportunist that managed to squash everyone on his way to power, that is for respect old lad :P My "issue" was you being incapable of doing anything for Loreroot, nor accepting to actually help on those suggestions from the people who try to do something.
-Activity of Savelites was great, and I planned to make it better, I'm sorry that it was taking much time, at least it was quite bigger than those of Guardians of the Root. Any GoTR made at least an UTOB or a decent quest? Your GoTR I mean, not the GoTR from Nelya or such. Don't lie about not responsive Savelites please.
-Aggresively kept the items THAT I PAYED FOR?! WOW! And even if I got them by privilege of course that I wouldn't give them to Marvolo since he betrayed the principles of the Church for which the items were created for, I admire your logics Firsanthalas, I really do. Wait I was sarcastic. You're bizarreness and absurdity brings me to madness.
-Yes, memorial to the fallen of your tyranny. I'm sorry it sounds political, but I had the need to give them at least a decent memorial if not freedom in their own alliance.


don't accuse Pip of spamming since he was the only one to make sensible responses. The worst part is that you have actually followers on your path of complexes and paranoia.

edit: I'm apologizing to neutral observers if I took it too much, but hypocricy of Firsanthalas and such as him really get the worst out of me

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen

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[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
First up, Rhaegar was let into the alliance along with other people when Grido and Z tried to rebuild it. He did not rebuild it from nothing like Jazira is now attempting to do.
He changed it, and you cannot deny that. It doesn't matter if he rebuilt it or not.
[/quote]

I seriously don't get your point. Its like all you want to do is negate what Firs says. His statement was with reference to the difference between Jazz's situation and Rhaegar's situation. And yes. Rhaegar did change it. If you talk to many people who knew savel well, they'd say that Savel's Church had long forgotten its intended purpose. But I guess you won't Bother about that all that.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Secondly, Rhaegar himself seemed to change the direction and ideas for the Church on several occassions. At one point he started to take up residence in the Tribunal Temple and he spoke about using it as a base for the Savels. That seemed to just peter out after a while. Then he wanted the Savels to be historians in Loreroot, then he started the avatar shop. There is more, but they are the big ones I can think of right off the top of my head.
Oh no, he tried to do other things! His life didn't revolve around the Savels 100%! He tried to give the Savels a NEW ROLE? BLASPHEMY! Nobody else has ever given an alliance a new role![/quote]

Oh yes! He did try to give the savels a new role. He had so many projects in his mind... He was a master initiator. But hardly few of them were completed. So where does that put the Church's new role? No where. None of us said it was blasphemous. Or a sin to dream big. Don't try to read in between the lines. There is nothing there. Unless you intend to create a new meaning just like you did right now.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Thirdly, he's a blockhead with as much subtlety as a bull in a china shop. He has zero tact and succeeded in royally getting up a lot of people's noses with his crap. He still does. He had an issue with me from day 1. Why? Because he listened to and believed venomous crap that was still boiling over from old wounds in Loreroot. No matter what happened, he never ever got past that. In short, he was a source of conflict within Loreroot and outside it too.
That doesn't change the fact that you ONLY "put up with him" and didn't try to establish friendly ties. (Simply taking the information from your post, I don't pretend to know about your personal issues)[/quote]

Didn't try to establish friendly ties? When you dont know what happened, you might as well shut up and not comment. as I said before... Don't try reading in between the lines.There is nothing in there. everything is straightforward and direct, unless of course you want to give stuff a new meaning.

Besides... it wasn't one sided. If You say firs didn't try then you have to accept that Rhaegar never gave him a chance either. How can you tie a friendly knot if the end of one of the threads is never available?

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
I put up with Rhaegar for as long as I did for one simple fact. I was trying to be fair. I did not want my personal feelings towards him to cloud my judgement and I wanted to give him a chance. Many people felt that I was too soft and I believe that Rhaegar himself started to believe that I was somehow weak and he could push me as much as he wanted. Wrong on that score.
He's a control freak. He seemed incapable of delegating tasks and only seemed to want to work with people when he felt like it or if he wanted to. By and large he showed little interest in working with anyone outside the Savels.
Why should he work with anybody if he doesn't want to? As an example, I'm not overly friendly with redneck. Am I going to go to him and say "Hey, wanna help me with a quest?", even if we're in the same alliance? It's not hard to ignore someone or something. For most people, anyways.[/quote]

Lol... He couldn't even work properly with Mya. I am pretty sure you can vouch for the fact that there is a lot of difference between Mya and redneck. Basically he didnt trust Firs. And thus he didn't trust most guardians. And there in lay the problem.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
He openly fostered a belief in at least some of the Savels, that if they were in the alliance before the kingship elections, then they didn't have to recognise the king. For any leader of any group in Loreoot to do such a thing is unacceptable. I also found out that things I said concerning his members were either not passed on or twisted. And he insisted that he deal with his members, not me.
Who cares about his beliefs? Lay down the law, don't stand there and "put up with him". There's a PM system and chat for speaking to people, you don't need to go through him. That's plain lack of effort on your part, if you really wanted to speak to them.[/quote]
Lol... you saw what happened when Firs tightened the noose. He Rebelled. Still wanna say that Firs never gave him a chance?

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Activity of the Savels...
Towards the end of his tenure, there was little or none. Most of the members seemed inactive and at least one member seemed to spend more time outside the alliance than actually in it (not a personal dig by the way, merely the way things seemed).
You want to talk about inactives? Grayhawk, White Reaper, Mysteria Blue (seemingly back, but still had a long absence), Siala Lone Wolf, Cross Swords and Mojomuppet (not 100% sure) in GotR, and I won't even mention the ones in CoE.
This is not intended as a shot at GotR or CoE, just don't complain about inactives if you've got plenty under your command.[/quote]

Mojo muppet? she logs on every single day and trains as well. Rhaegar was responsible for his alliance. And hence came the statement. As for the Inactives in GotR, we have our own filtering system and we aren't answerable to you for that. And by the way, You missed the whole point in firs's statement:

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1284194433' post='68182']
[b]When I booted him there was almost no reaction from them.[/b] Infact, some of them seemed completely oblivious to what had happened. [b]Personally I was disappointed. I had expected more of a reaction, any reaction.[/b]
When Marv took over he tried to contact the members and got almost no response until he kicked people.[/quote]

There.. now its all bold and clear.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Savelite items....
Rhaegar aggressively sought the items that he felt belonged to the church. He was very insistent (to put it mildly) that they belonged to the church. Where are they now? He refused to return the ones he had to Marvolo, when Marvolo took over. I guess that they only belong to the church if Rhaegar is running it. Maybe it should be called the church of Rhaegar?
Rhaegar bought the items with his own funds, I'm assuming. If another Muffin Man came along and replaced you without your permission, would you willingly give him your muffin-related items if you still considered muffins to be part of your role?[/quote]

Rhaegar had all of marv's money and said he wouldn't return the money to Marv unless the savellite items which marv had were returned to him. It was quite a lot of money. And no.. Rhaegar didnt buy the items with his own funds. It was marv's money, Church's funds and a few of the items were given to them during the Land item distribution thingy. Get your facts right before you comment.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Alliance location..
Rhaegar himself stated to me very clearly that the Savels belonged in Loreroot and would never leave.
Opinions change, get over it.[/quote]
Opinions change? Jazira wants it to be in Loreroot as well. I don't see your point.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Savelite memorial....
Yeah, I find this a mixture of funny and sickening really. For starters it is really a homage to himself and one or two others, as well as a two fingered salute to myself and the rest of Loreroot. He's missing at least one name of an older member from that list and he has included names of people that had long gone before his demise and also some people that were barely there or did anything at all. The Savels are also not dead, so having a 'memorial' is in poor taste in my opinion.
Marv's Savels were no better than what you seemingly believe Rhaegar's were, and Jazira's plans don't even look like the Savelite Church, they look like the Loreroot Church. Who really cares if he's missing a few names, or included some extra, just because? In the end, it's up to him who goes on, not you. If you disagree, talk to him about it, otherwise, keep your opinion of it to yourself.[/quote]
Hypocrisy at its highest. You just supported Rhaegar in his desire to give savel's Church a new role, now you whine about jazira's attempt. Frankly If you have a problem with it... speak to her personally or keep your opinion to yourself.
You see, a few people I know, who really had a good opinion about Rhaegar, seemed to think that it was unforgivable that he set up a memorial when the alliance issues were not really sorted out. Proves that people do care about it.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
The ultimate irony though, is that the alliance should have a memorial, because it should be put to bed in my opinion. But it seems that people in MD have an inability to let go of the past and move on. If this new incarnation of the alliance does not make something of itself it will be going to alliance heaven. Make no mistakes about it.
Yey, threats to people who actually wish to see Savelites restored.[/quote]

You have this thing for making a mountain of a mole hill don't you? Again you are trying to read in between the lines when there is nothing there to read.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
As for a memorial, that should be something that is done by the MD community (or at the very least the land of the alliance), not by one or two people with an axe to grind.
So, instead of the former leader of the alliance in question, you'd rather either have everybody (most of the people in this group have never had anything to do with the alliance), or you (who has never been in the alliance) decide who goes on the list? Not to mention, of course, that NOBODY can dictate what who puts on clickables except Mur. You want something else for the memorial? Do it yourself.[/quote]

He DID NOT DICTATE. He stated an opinion just like you have been stating all along. Or should I assume that you were trying to dictate Firs what to think or do and what not to think or do?

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Rhaegar had his chance. He blew it royally, so stop this nonsense of saying he should have it back. It is time to give someone else a chance or put the alliance to bed once and for all.
Yeah, he blew it because of a personal issue between you and him. It was not because of all of that "abuse" you put up with, and it was not because he created an unofficial Lorerootian group without your permission. These things are easily ignored.[/quote]

First of all, Stop trying to be the insider.You never even liked Rhaegar or Loreroot. You haven't even seen one side of the coin. Wait. Correction. You haven't even seen the cover properly. So you might as well just stop commenting about the other half or judge the entire situation by yourself.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1284199057' post='68185']
Now, I don't know about the rest of the community, but I'm tired of hearing you ***** and moan and try to justify yourself. I am also VERY tired of hearing Marv spout off every time Rhaegar and the Savels are mentioned in the same paragraph. Everybody knows both of your positions and opinions on the subject already, so the only reasons I can see for these posts are attempts at justification or just pure hatred, and either way, both reasons make you a "blockhead with as much subtlety as a bull in a china shop", in my opinion.[/quote]

You attention and opinions were not asked for. If you are tired of listening to the so called *****ing and moaning you might as well stop reading or responding to these posts. Trust me it would be a blessing if you did. You have the right to KEEP YOUR FRIGGIN OPINIONS TO YOURSELF or you might talk to the concerned privately. Just as you suggested Firs in your post.

And oh pip... your posts show your clear dislike against everything related to Loreroot or Yrth whatever it maybe. I am trying my best not to say you are prejudiced or.. *cough* "a blockhead with as much subtlety as a bull in a china shop"

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Okay.. Here's my opinion... Leave the past where it is - IN THE PAST! -.- This shouldn't be a discussion of who did what in the past, but how to help in the present/future. That is the ONLY reason I left the topic open for suggestions. I suppose I was naive in thinking it wouldn't explode like this, but that is my fault and I apologize for not seeing what could lead to it.



Now, to get back to the actual discussion -

Cutler - why do you not like the Savelites Church? You did not state anything that was constructive, only that you have a problem with the Church itself.. ?

As for the role and goals of the church - Wasn't Savelfuser a warrior? Did he not try to pass down knowledge of fighting? He also helped people as well. How is this different than what I am trying to do? Perhaps adding nature to it all wasn't the best thing, but it can be removed. Principles aren't set in stone either, as I am still doing research on each of them as I can. As for having the members called Monks... -.- meh, I'm a girl and as far as I know only men can be monks. If I'm wrong, let me know :P

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I admire Nimrodel how you manage to turn Firsanthalas who banished Savelites, Marvolo who betrayed the Savelites into a poor old burdened king and a victimized brother. You are learning from the best, I think Firsanthalas should hold school for manipulation, lies, public hypocrisy, media spamming. Talking about biased opinions of Pip, where in fact he gives you the most rational responses, yet you yourself cannot accept that Firsanthalas actually has flaws.
From when this have started I've [b]NEVER[/b] saw Firsanthalas saying "ok, I might overreacted here, I might made a mistake here". Isn't that some sort of biased opinion? This course of events is really a mess, nobody can say that he did his part perfect.

-master initiator :P that's exactly what Firsanthalas condemnded up there, but you seem to present the pacifist part of his thoughts. Add faking to the list of held subjects in Firsanthalas' school. How I love to see when Firsanthalas plays the role of an angry god, and minutes after that, most often, Mya shows up with a fixed smile and a "welcome hug". In this case it is you.
-you know nothing about my chances given to Firsanthalas so stop talking about them. I will finish the file I mentioned soon I hope and post it somewhere to be seen, my point of view on things, and how I came to them.
-Mya always had suspicious behavior on me. We talked about that and I think we resolved that during the period, but sadly course of events lead us to separate sides again. Not being able to work with Mya... you need to be more concrete than giving semi-questions and answers, mentioning something than letting people use their imagination to present Rhaegar with horns and fire.
-So, me rebelling after Firs "tightens his nose" is wrong? He banishes me and sends me to prison... but that's perfectly fine? I could have done much worse later on Nimrodel, going into a mad sabotage wherever I could, you must understand that I have nothing more to lose here, and that's it when people are most dangerous. I chose not to do few things on the end. -Read more details on the following book, only 5 dollars to hear the story of your wildest imagination... :D - a little joke, but I will tell more about it when I make that file. Isolating case like this only makes my posts longer than needed.
I am very curios on how long it takes till someone in Loreroot makes an opinion of his/her own. Just a few more years?

-Nice now I'm accused of robbery. What else?



About Jazira... Of course she can't continue what I have started completely, if someone starts something in the Church it will most certainly be entirely new (much of my thoughts about it weren't expressed, of course, again, in that file you will find out more). However it makes me unease... I would like to give opportunity to Jazira to do something... it is my moral duty, one of the general principles of the Church for sure to let her do her job if she wants to do some good to the world. It is the dilemma that haunted me last few minutes, should I step up against Jazira, or support her? One of the major problems in it is that most certainly it won't have any refferance to what "my" Savelites were doing, what they standed for, and that most likely they will not be EVER mentioned by her, since she must follow up policy of Firsanthalas to make an alliance... But if she tries do something else that is good, why wouldn't she be able to, people get forgotten all the time? :) Maybe it is I who should try to preserve that memory, which I try to at least with that Memorial Firsanthalas hates so much...

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Rhaegar... No, I will not make the Savels as you wanted them. The Savels weren't created for you. What I'm trying to do is restore them to how they were when they were FIRST created. - except about the whole Monk thing...Though I suppose I should just get over that and change it back. I'm sorry, old friend, but is it my opinion that if something was created for a purpose, that purpose should be kept. However, I do need help in finding out exactly what that purpose was.

Ideas anyone?

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I didn't say that you were wrong. I simply said I wouldn't keep it the way YOU wanted it. In other words, I would like it to be how SAVELFUSER wanted it. Not myself, not Marvolo, not Z or Grido...Savelfuser. He is the one it was created for. I will be doing a lot of research on him soon, some of which I have already started.

My reasons should be clear by this point - It is not MY church, nor do I really want to run it. The power hungry, the insincere,
those who will do anything to get what they want .. Yea, I now have to deal with all of them when before I simply turned away or watched from afar. I wonder why I wanted to do this again..? Oh yea, to keep a part of history from being torn down (in a sense) and to use the opportunity to help others. I would have thought many other like-minded people would have wanted this as well.

I suppose I should simply let it disappear to alliance heaven? It's strange to think I was the only one who wanted to save it and try to turn it into something nice. Not one of the previous Savelites - Yourself included, Rhaegar - stepped up to say a word. NOT ONE PERSON until I did. Why?

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what motivates you to renew it if you know nothing about Savelfuser?
and how can you ignore the whole one year and a half of Savelites that were lead by me (together with Marvolo at points)?
No matter did a thing or two went wrong at point, did you like actions or reactions by some people, isn't it proper to accept it as a part of the history of the Church? (not to mention that I was leading Church much longer than Savel)


about not raising a word... ever heard of boycott?

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Before you start that nonsense Rhaegar. You never met Savelfuser until AFTER you started work on the church. So that puts you in EXACTLY the same situation that Jazira now finds herself.
And I might add that I believe you met Savelfuser only briefly on one day, maybe two. Savelfuser had well and truly left MD at that time and it is my understanding that he only returned briefly because he was specifically asked to give you the nod so to speak.

[quote]NEVER saw Firsanthalas saying "ok, I might overreacted here, I might made a mistake here"[/quote]
Yeah, you may want to get your facts right their mister. I quite publicly apologised to people on the forum before. I can admit when I am wrong and I can apologise for it too. Edited by Firsanthalas

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yes, you're absolutely right Firsanthalas. I don't know Savelfuser well at all. I never said I did.
Difference between my start and Jazira start, is that I was a member of the Church about 4 months before I started leading it.

[b]
edit in answer to Firs' edit: I was talking about this course of issues from the point of "Rangers". Not your political apologizes in other subjects[/b]

furthermore: wow, you called me a mister? I thought I was a monster from Loch Nes or such? Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen

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Regardless of Bob’s cult and the CoE’s worship of the moon, the Savelites are the only officially recognised organised religion in all of Magic Duel. Getting that implemented was quite the feat all things taken into consideration. I think it is prudent to remember this, and that due to this, binning it will be quite the statement.

Also, considering that point, isn’t it interesting that it is indeed this alliance that causes the most controversy and conflict.

Z

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1284216173' post='68202']
Regardless of Bob’s cult and the CoE’s worship of the moon, the Savelites are the only officially recognised organised religion in all of Magic Duel. Getting that implemented was quite the feat all things taken into consideration. I think it is prudent to remember this, and that due to this, binning it will be quite the statement.

Also, considering that point, isn’t it interesting that it is indeed this alliance that causes the most controversy and conflict.

Z
[/quote]


yes, Z, I concur :P It gives it much charm, actually.

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1284216173' post='68202']
Regardless of Bob’s cult and the CoE’s worship of the moon, the Savelites are the only officially recognised organised religion in all of Magic Duel. Getting that implemented was quite the feat all things taken into consideration. I think it is prudent to remember this, and that due to this, binning it will be quite the statement.

Also, considering that point, isn’t it interesting that it is indeed this alliance that causes the most controversy and conflict.

Z
[/quote]

Z you are awesome, it is interesting to think of the fact this "war/feud" is over a religion. The problem with that is that in the time I've been here, which I'll admit hasn't been as long as anyone else here, I've seen more worship of Bob and the CoE trying to hold services/praying to the moon/other religious things, etc, then I ever saw from Rhaegar's church.

To me the idea of disbanding the church is more about balance and activity rather then it's purpose, Loreroot is the only land with three alliances (and now one guild) in all opinions I suppose it was tolerated for what ever reasons but seeing as there are more people willing to complain about the past then ones would like to help Jaz preserve whatever might be left of this alliance, perhaps the old members might want to help or maybe some new people, otherwise as much as you all want to talk about preserving the past and the great ghost, the fact is he's gone and you'd all rather dispute what happened while Rhaegar was in charge instead of actively trying to help with the reconstruction. If there is no other support then a few people I'd say it's time to lay to the alliance and all of it's past to rest.

If the community wants to throw a memorial go for just make sure to make it about what the church was truly supposed to be about and not some aggrandized procession to Rhaegar and what he did as leader. Thats really all I have to say simply because the rest of it is just an old broken record that insists on playing over and over.

edit:spacing Edited by Darigan

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I'd like to make another point about religion. Religions last because of followers and faith in something higher. Simply announcing 'I'm great, follow me' does not make a religion. You need people to follow you, they need a reason to follow you and the people that come after them need a reason to continue that following.
Maybe it is just me, but I don't see that with the Savels, I never did. There doesn't seem to be a creed in existence as to why Savel should be worshiped, what he did, what he stood for or against.
There just seems to be this alliance that is used as a political football.
To my mind, I don't see any devotion from Rhaegar to anything other than the possession of the church (At least nothing other than cosmetic or self serving). As soon as he was ousted he turned on Marv for attempting to continue its running. And in the 18 months or so he was there I didn't see any of the aforementioned things in the realm.

Now, if Jazira or someone else feels that they can do this and give it some kind of meaning, then fine, but at some point a line has to be drawn. Weak or half forgotten religions vanish and/or replaced with new ones. Sometimes they are kept alive, but ultimately altered or consumed and merged to create a new one.

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