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Burns

Petition Against February

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How many times do I need to repeat this: mp3 is the TUTORIAL for god's sake! MP4 helps you to get deeper into the game. [u]MP5 is the mind power where you have to be in order to experience everything![/u]

Also, creating a new GGG for mp4s only is not the solution. It's not even a solution. And what's worst is not that you and a bunch of other guys "train" separately (after all it's your business) but you lure new players into that "project" of yours. You think you can beat an mp5 by staying in mp4 and grind attack and defense? How wrong you are! You think that you can follow feruary's steps and grind ve and then beat an mp5? February can kill an mp5 only if he gets a burst. And he NEVER has his crits alive cause he is afraid of loses (that bs about "protecting" the noob is...bs).

So stop the whining about what Mur wants to do and let the man do his job. Suggestions are good (moreover since he asked for them) but from suggesting things to the "My way is the way cause I know better" is a long waay.

You do know that we have a saying in Romanian: When 1 person tells you you're drunk, you can ignore him. When 2 people say you're drunk you can still ignore them. But if 3 people tell you you're drunk then you go to sleep.

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whoa whoa whoa. why would anyone do that? who would use 10 alts loaded with angiens to cap others just for hte sake of hurting newbies...? i really don't know where that came from.

I'm still all for the administrative item. i don' think the creation of such an item would make anyone feel like going out of their way to cap newbies.

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1283158382' post='67354']
The reason people are in this situation is because many don't want to go to MP5, so maybe what actually needs to be fixed is MP5 mode to make it more balanced and accessible both in terms of mechanics and the general attitude around it rather than scape goating the others based on one situation. Its all very well the MP5s saying there is nothing wrong with MP5, but clearly there are enough people not wanting to move there to show otherwise.

Burns - I think to give just one example; Blackwood has shown it isn't that surprisingly easy to beat MP5s.

From my perspective we have a situation where you go MP5, get absolutely pummeled by vets who all give you loses (wouldnt matter so much if they didnt) which means unless you play a major game of hide and seek you end up in stat loss and nobody wants that. I thought stat loss was supposed to stop major gains from unbalance not penalise new MP5s? Then in addition to that a highly visible proportion of said Mp5s opinion seems to be that because they can attack they will and that is that unless you come out and ask them. Now I don't think we should be in a situation where you have to ask players not to attack you, I'm sure it feels pretty demeaning to the new Mp5s to know they either have to hide or beg.

I'm just giving a different perpective as on the whole people commenting about Mp3 and MP4 are Mp5s themselves - and just as you say some can't comment because they don't live MP5, the same can be said of you in terms of the lower levels.

Z
[/quote]

Ty for realizing what is happening, and i totally agree that something need to be done to make the game more balance.

There are alot of people affected by this, and I have already stated my reasons on post #36 on page 2.

Although i still think stat penalty is the way to go, I do not know how hard it is for mp5 to find people to attack. If stat penalty really is going to reduce that amount even further, then we could apply stat penalty only to those attacking people who are almost at or actually at skill damage, but we will need a way to tell who is at skill damage.

Maybe we could also restrict the number of times in a day you could attack some1 that is much much weaker than you. I know that would not solve the capping problem, but it would make the game more balanced. Edited by freelancer

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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283189923' post='67382']
How many times do I need to repeat this: mp3 is the TUTORIAL for god's sake! MP4 helps you to get deeper into the game. [u]MP5 is the mind power where you have to be in order to experience everything![/u]

Also, creating a new GGG for mp4s only is not the solution. It's not even a solution. And what's worst is not that you and a bunch of other guys "train" separately (after all it's your business) but you lure new players into that "project" of yours. You think you can beat an mp5 by staying in mp4 and grind attack and defense? How wrong you are! You think that you can follow feruary's steps and grind ve and then beat an mp5? February can kill an mp5 only if he gets a burst. And he NEVER has his crits alive cause he is afraid of loses (that bs about "protecting" the noob is...bs).

So stop the whining about what Mur wants to do and let the man do his job. Suggestions are good (moreover since he asked for them) but from suggesting things to the "My way is the way cause I know better" is a long waay.

You do know that we have a saying in Romanian: When 1 person tells you you're drunk, you can ignore him. When 2 people say you're drunk you can still ignore them. But if 3 people tell you you're drunk then you go to sleep.
[/quote]

you can repeat as many times as you want. I will never believe it. You tell me I am wrong, but February proves that I am right. Indeed, currently he can only beat MP5 with burst, but when he will increase his VE (say, double it), he could defeat some MP5 even without a burst.

I do not lure any player into my training group. Only few new players occasionally joins my group, because they ask for training, and I give them the possibility to train, AT THEIR REQUEST. But, as I said, they join occasionally, get the wins they need to lvl up a crit, and leave. I know you trace us. I bet you always seen the same 5-6 ppl gathered in the same place, and rarely seen anyone new. Probably training attack and defense is not the solution, but is the best thing I can do while waiting for my angiens to hatch and get them to max lvl, while increasing my VE and while waiting to get enough credits from voting, to get tokens, powerful crits and other stuff from MD shop.
Anyway, thanks for advertising my "project".

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You don't seem to get the point of ve. Every time you use angiens, you use the strength of a wounded warrior. The more you fight, the weaker you grow.

You had 1Mil ve? After one attack, you may only have 600k left. Next one, 300k. Afterwards, perhaps even just 1k.

And...if he truly wouldn't fear losses, he would use his creats. Want to bet he would be within stat dmg in a very fast amount of time? If he agrees, and stays idle as he likes, we can try and see.

In any case, get ontopic, people. This is about the issue of capped mp3.

The way I see it now, since Mur also doesn't want to change that much, I assume an administrative item would be created. Question would also be, who would hold it, and how would that person know who to advance?

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[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1283258148' post='67430']
Question would also be, who would hold it, and how would that person know who to advance?
[/quote]
To me, Burns seems like a good choice, seeing as he's already LHO and spends most (if not all) of his time in the Park where newbs tend to congregate, and also knows the consequences of abuse, has a direct superior, etc. A single complaint with evidence would be enough to advance somebody, would it not? Or multiple complaints with no evidence could be put up on the forum for voting, or the whole thing could be decided by the community through voting, and Burns (or anyone else, really) could just be the one to carry the action out. Of course the process would possibly be made easier through use of dream control to temporarily hold possible offenders, but it's not necessary.

And really, this IS just a precautionary measure. The next incident of one MP3 giving significant amounts of EXP to others will most likely be sometime in the not-so-near future.

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Really, the only sensible thing February could have done by now, is to realize that his VE is disproportionally high, even compared to some mp5. If he wants to keep this 'power', shortlived indeed it may be, at the mp3 level then I suggest he stops capping newbies.

If I were him, and I saw this petition, the only sensible path that I would see would be to voluntarily go to mp4.
Not only does this avoid going to mp5 directly, thereby missing many opportunities, but it would also be a show of goodwill, unlike that grotesque display of censored ego stroking, as was seen in the mp3 vs mp5 topic.

I can only wonder why he still hasn't voluntarily gone up to mp4 yet.

The only reason he could have for staying in mp3 is because it would part of his role, of his character, and it makes him feel comfortable, regardless of the newbie capping. Yet, I see no such development in his character, contrary to others such as Yoshi, who do abide by this 'unofficial' rule.
If he is staying in mp3, to defy or even vilify the 'established order' (hah), or perhaps simply because he likes the feeling of power, relative to weaklings such as mp3, then many thoughts come to mind, such as daring or provoking him to coming to mp5 to show his true worth and test his mettle, but I would be avoiding the issue.

You're a coward.

But I'm not so adamant as to condemn you on sight. Honestly, if you would just go to mp4, or at the very least would strike an effort as to actually apologize for the newbie capping, then my opinion would change. As it currently stands however, I hold you in one of the lowest lights imaginable.

I would ask for the main participants, especially February, to hurry up and make a move, as this topic, like many others that drag on for a long time, will debase itself and degrade into flaming, sooner or later. Edited by Metal Bunny

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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283189923' post='67382']

Also, creating a new GGG for mp4s only is not the solution. It's not even a solution. And what's worst is not that you and a bunch of other guys "train" separately (after all it's your business) but you lure new players into that "project" of yours. You think you can beat an mp5 by staying in mp4 and grind attack and defense? How wrong you are! You think that you can follow feruary's steps and grind ve and then beat an mp5? February can kill an mp5 only if he gets a burst. And he NEVER has his crits alive cause he is afraid of loses (that bs about "protecting" the noob is...bs).

[/quote]

I can beat mp5 even without a burst.. coz ve is not all that matters in a fight.. it's strategy.. you even attacked me couple of times and lost dst.. you can even check the pictures a lot of them also are fights where I'm a the defender..

but the topic is not about me already.. and one thing i never intend to cap any newbie.. the topic is not about me anymore..

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actually this topic is pretty much centered on [u]you[/u] you've yet to give a decent reasoning for you insistence of staying MP3. Actually by your own wordss it seems that the very role you've taken is simply one of ego at being able to beat MP5s, If you can beat them fair and square then move up to mp4 and then 5 on your own. While you may not intend to cap mp3s you staying at that level inevitablly leads to some of them attacking you, it shouldn't be the duty of those around you to warn the newbies to have to warn against attacking someone of their own mp level.

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Suggestion 1: If fight ends in a cap for one of the players, the other will get minus 10% ve as penalty.
cons:
- suicidal attacks to lower ve of a player by capping alts on him. Its fine, he should move on.
- hard to determine if fight will be such a fight or not, but it does happen only once, right? maybe this will keep vets more careful when atacking random noobs?
- overall paranoia
pros:
- noobs attacking and capping an older account will not feel much of a 10% penalty because their vitality total is anyway low. But vets will suffer from 10%



Suggestion 2: No Ve reward for saking creatures at mp lower than 4
cons:
- limiting developing of character at mp3
- limits just one type of mp3 overpower
pros:
- adds something more to the mp4+ levels



Suggestion 3:
- Add a count of how many players someone capped. On a certain number penalize him somehow but not move him.
pros: limits repetitive abuse
cons: persistent players that want to do that will still do it
penalty suggestion: apply one random action of these. the difference in severity is a risk to consider: destroy one random creature regardless of level rarity or age. Destroy one random item not marked rare(admin items). Lower ve by 30%. Lower all stats by 15%. Jail time one week.



What and why not:
- no forcing someone to next mp, its true some want to stay at mp3 as a role and holding the ability to move them is dengerous
- no stats cap. I don't think any of you, or me, can decide what decent stats are or where to place this cap
- no sak limit, can get annoying when you realised you got only aramors and want to sac them but you cant. Sac for free is also not good because it alters the concept of sacrificing and for a noob to see that is not good and makes no sense.

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I'd pick suggestion 2 then, if we had a choice. Limits one type of mp3 overpower, but it's the sort that caps newbies..so that should be helpful.

Can't think of anything else to add right now...if feb insists to stay on mp3, and caps more mp3 though, what will happen then? Jail, penalties or others? Because as of now everyone could go cap every new mp3 they see, and not receive punishment (3 would avoid that somehow, but its still allowing repeated abuse..)

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Personally I would do something else:
-cut the ve "some crits" give when saccing (actually not cut it but changing the level: make it level 4 and not 3 so to get the ve you'll have to get the necessary amount of wins AND xp-see the below line)
-add xp requirements to the same crits (the ones I am talking above)

This will not solve the current situation but will eradicate "future Februaries".

If I were to choose one of the suggestions, I would go for 2. But imo it's easier to do what I said above (just make some adjustments to a crit, no need for complex coding) Edited by dst

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If i had to pick one of thoes

Option 2 i think is the most fair

but i dont know if it will fully cover the issue at hand.
But it is something to work with untill someone else figures out another way
to abuse the mp3 stage :P

I would like to suggest MP3 not be able to join an alliance though

Edit to add this: DST idea is also something i would agree with.

Edited by Yrthilian

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This might have some abusable holes, but maybe simply capping the amount of xp you can give on a single fight on mp3 instead? Something like, 20 to 30k (before heat). That way the newbies cannot accidentally cap themselves when fighting an mp3 monster they didn't know of before.

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I'm not in favour of option two, simply because I'm not in favour of any option which will further limit people's starting level for MP5 - which many already feel under-prepared for with things as they already are.

I quite like option one as it allows for community action even if it would be a shady version of it, planning a VE take down in order to [i]persuade[/i] someone to move MP would be quite difficult for just one person to achieve I think. It might not be liked but it would certainly be interesting. However if a player is already capped what happens? Will everyone attacking me for example lose 10% everytime if they give me xp?

Option three would be good, but not as it is. I would have it to only be a VE or stat % decrease, and depending on the number you have to cap to hit that I might increase it to 50% on both.

Z

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To be honest, I'm not pleased with any of the 3 suggestions, though given a choice I'd pick #1, followed in preference by #2.


I like Udgard's idea, but I would modify it:

Suggestion:
The loser of a fight cannot get more XP than the winner. Player XP & creature xp get scaled down proportionally. (if crit xp didn't get scaled down, it would be exploitable)
(Could be limited to mp3, but doesn't really have to be...)

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Option 1 penalizes far more random people than it does people abusing the system.

Let's assume that in the normal course of gameplay, 10 mp3 would reach the cap in any given week as a result of regular battles and progress in the game. Whoever happens to be fighting them when this happens would be penalized. If there happens to be someone running around capping newbies, maybe 5 extra people will be capped. So in this scenario, 10 players get penalized just for level-appropriate fighting and 1 troublemaker gets 5x the penalty.

If no one happens to be causing trouble in any given week, 10 random players will still get penalized.

I'm picking numbers out of thin air, but you get the idea. Unless this kind of abuse is way more common than I think it is, the vast majority of people penalized by this system would be people playing appropriately. I know MD isn't supposed to be fair, but that seems like a pretty significant negative side effect to me. Edited by asryn

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[color=#1C2837][size=2]"- no forcing someone to next mp, its true some want to stay at mp3 as a role and holding the ability to move them is dengerous"[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]Just because something is dangerous, doesn't mean it isn't the best decision to make. Just requires more forethought, and places a heavier weight of decision. Honestly, just looking at this whole situation, it seems ...singular..i guess that's the word i'm looking for. Any case like this that crops up will most likely need to be handled on a case-case basis. Any of your listed solutions will cause echoes, and in turn more problems with the game itself. GIving one person the power to enlighten, while dangerous, is the least intrusive of the mentioned solutions, assuming you choose a person that won't immediately abuse it. [/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]On the same note, you could put a balance for that person into the game. A natural limiting factor. I don't necessarily mean someone who can drop mp levels...that would be much more apt for abuse than raising them. Instead, a person in-game who can negate the enlightening effect. Perhaps they can return someone to their previous mp-level at a cost; at a larger extreme they could remove the power to enlighten from the person. [/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]Obviously the players you choose would have to be considered heavily. Still though, even if it is dangerous, it still seems to me to be the best option, with the least amount of permanent consequences. [/size][/color]

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To address one of the main complaints with the -10% for capping a player suggestion, why not simply have a threshold before it applies? For example, if the limit is 320K, and the threshold is 370K (50K), then everyone who gives that player experience after they are at/above 370K experience looses 10% of their max VE.
I would also suggest that a condition for the VE reduction to trigger be that the perpetrator either be at or have been at cap for that Mind Power Level.

Wouldn't mind if there was a timer of say 10, which recorded how many times the VE penalty was applied to you, and if you exceeded the limit (in this case, 10) then the panalty extended to additional stats, as well.

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And here I come again with the same example as given in previous post: what if someone makes 10 alts, each of them with the purpose of capping newbs? How would any of those 3 options help the newbs? And since those are alts with a set purpose, none of those penalties will matter. To cap newbs at MP3 doesn't really requires allot of VE. with low VE but multiple attacks, it is quite easy to cap a newb. it's not even necessary to use angiens. suicidal attack with crits that doesn't do any dmg, if attacker have a burst and if defender happens to have a life stealer in defense, the defender could get allot of personal experience, and even get caped. Of course, everyone will say (as some ppl already said), who would be that crazy to train 10 alts for the only purpose of caping newbs? I will answer with another question: who ever thought that February will do what he did? And I'll answer with another question: Do you think that every player in MD is perfectly sane, so that he won't do such atrocities? Besides, sanity is hard to define. And I'll answer with a last question: If I will get caped by someone (as Burns promised to all GGG training players, including me), what other reasons would I have to play this game, except for harming others, just as others harmed me? BTW, I do not consider myself perfectly sane. I guess everyone who reads my posts already noticed that I am not 100% mentally sane, maybe some ppl think I am 100% insane. Probably a psychiatric test implemented before joining this game should solve all the problems, but will rise a new issue: there will probably be very few ppl to pass the test, so, this game will have very few characters playing it. Edited by Bronzometh

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You are assuming someone would honestly do this, either out of boredom or to prove it can be done. Either way theres ways to figure out such things before they get to such a level. The more you talk about it the more you make it seem like it's something you'd want to do yourself, you honestly haven't played this game long enough if you think anyone would be able to honestly get away with it. If they do then they do and will be dealt with swiftly by which ever option is chosen best. You seem to have no faith in the community and you should a lot of people have been here a lot longer and dealt with different situations like this before.

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Way to go Darigan and other people. You're void of arguments and full of emotional persuasions. Why you are giving minus ten rep to people who ask for proof or people who give decent arguments in favor of februari is beyond me.
[quote name='Darigan' timestamp='1283537733' post='67631']
You are assuming someone would honestly do this, either out of boredom or to prove it can be done. Either way theres ways to figure out such things before they get to such a level.[/quote]
Bronzometh already explained this: it happened with february and nobody prevented it. Your argument has been preemtively defeated by Bronzometh yet you must restate it?
[quote]
The more you talk about it the more you make it seem like it's something you'd want to do yourself[/quote]
So without real arguments, let's attack the persona behind the arguments shall we?
[quote]
, you honestly haven't played this game long enough if you think anyone would be able to honestly get away with it.[/quote]
Except that once again, februari did get away with it... because what februari did was officially not wrong.
[quote]
If they do then they do and will be dealt with swiftly by which ever option is chosen best. You seem to have no faith in the community and you should a lot of people have been here a lot longer and dealt with different situations like this before.
[/quote]
After seven pages of discussion nothing is swiftly dealt with. You're also horribly inconsistent: you have faith in the community and think nobody would purposely cap noobs, yet at the same time you accuse Bronzometh of wanting to do it, be it just to prove you wrong. Furthermore, he argued against one specific system. If we are to have faith in the community, I can use that as a reason to argue for the option 'do nothing'.


Which is also what I intend to do. Choose 'do nothing'. Didn't you see Mur's warning? Whatever limit you impose on mp3 will have implications for higher levels. Februari is a single case. He made his point, and considering the amount of fuss that's been made on it now, I think he made it very strongly with your help. There is no reason for him to keep repeating his strategy, nor for anyone else to copy him. You can stop trading with him, you can organize a massive hunt and punish him within the limits of current game mechanics even. You can try to warn noobs against his kind.
Which reminds me, back in my day, mp3s were advised to use simple rituals as defenses. Not to win obviously, but to minimize the damage from attackers. Every time I see new players asking if they 'did something wrong and should start again?' people say that whatever you do 'wrong' can be adjusted at the next mp level. Are these attitudes suddenly invalid? Do we need new game mechanics because of one single player?

It seems to me that defeating an mp5 as an mp3 is cool. However, nothing makes as big an impact on the game as having the mechanics changes for/because of you. If that happens, I'll gladly nominate februari for biggest villain and most influential on the next festival.

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I do have to agree with Kafuuka on this.

Since it is a single case, I don't think such... strong measures need to be taken in this situation. I'm not suggesting we slap February on the wrist and say Good Job, but rather, we look at the situation and figure out what needs to be done for this specific person.

I don't like the idea of changing the entire game mechanics just because of one person. I don't like the idea of younger players being capped so early as the next person, but I do believe this has been blown out of proportion. What I am suggesting, however, is preventative measures. We all go to the Dojo every now and then, and we all in some form have connections to the other players. We know what has happened, and I am sure that no one wants it done again.

Think of this objectively, not subjectively, people. We lose all credibility once we let our emotions speak, instead of our brains. How do you expect to sway someone emotionally, when what you say puts up a huge barrier that makes them want to tune out completely?

Please, it has been drawn out long enough.

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