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Burns

Petition Against February

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[quote name='lightsage' timestamp='1283092570' post='67294']
Well, no. For the simple reason that there won't be any players their lvl to attack than :P
[/quote]

"safety time" will not last forever.. and you can attack them if they want to sparr with you.. but it's up to them.. but safety time is only for few weeks.. I think or a time that is best..

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[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1283084955' post='67290']

Exactly my point. Newbies don't need more than 5k VE, if at all. When they get to mp5, they can still get more if they feel like.
[/quote]

ppl will need to increase their vitality before getting to MP5 because at MP5 there already are allot of ppl that have high vitality. Same goes for stats. new players are forced to stay at lower MP lvls because they need VE and stats before advancing to MP5, because it will be allot harder for them to get the VE and stats at MP5 than MP4 (I don't know how they do that at MP3 - it seems to me that at MP4 is easyer to train than at MP3, and never understood why are some ppl training at MP3). Indeed, they can get VE at mp5 just as they can get it at MP4, but they will have to stay hidden for a long time, while at MP4 they can play the game while they gather VE.

I also dislike what February did (talking about caping newbies), but let's not forget that Burns himself threttened the ppl training at GGG that he will cap them, and no one said that it is wrong. I don't understand how come Burns started this thread, since he intended to do the same thing. This time, he is indeed right, but a petition started by someone who intended to do the same thing gives me the reason to think that he have other hidden reasons to do it (like the need of new training dummies for MP5 vets). If this would have been started by any other player, I wouldn't have any suspicions, but from Burns....

Any stats and sac restriction will determine ppl to quit. they will soon be forced to get to MP5, and then they will realise that they have no chance. Without those restrictions, they are forced to stay at MP4 for a long time, but they will get to MP5 one day, and play the game.

About february, maybe if someone will explain him the benefits of advancing to MP4, he might advence by his own will.

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I personally disagree with making a guild or item specifically for pushing people to mp5; it invites human error.


Suggestion:

When losing 100%, no player XP gained for the loser.

This wouldn't prevent februaries, but it would stop newbies being capped via angiens.


Suggestion:

Cap stat gain from a sacrifice. (proposed by Kyphis in the old GGG thread)

Prevents mp3s building wins before rising to mp4, and prevents mp3s with 10k attack.



High-vit people with low stats are vulnerable to steallife. The problem remains of superpowered people who splurge in the MD Shop for xp lowering and for tokens. Edited by apophys

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Also, i'd like to point you to a simple, yet easy to 'forget' flaw in your arguments:

Whatever stats an mp5 musters, is of no concern to any other mp5. Because stats don't make fights on our level, they only do on mp4.
Obviously, you can't and won't win a brute force battle against a player stronger than you, but you never can do that.
You can beat rituals, though, specially the ones backed by a lot of stats. An example: Long long time ago, Mur used his magical abilities to get himself what we called 'steroid stats', 3 million attack and defence. No one almost killed him, his best result was 0-98,9 if i remember correctly.
So, yeah, stats are all cool and stuff, and i can much easier train new creatures with them, but they are absolutely not a requirement to fight well. MP4 is just long enough to get a decent stock of creatures, if you don't waste time and energy gathering attack and defence and VE. Creatures make rituals, stats are merely a supporting factor.

You haven't been to mp5 to see things yourself, spare for a test account that has nothing, is nothing and is never go to be anything. If you took the time to try and _be_ mp5, you'd find it surprisingly easy to beat other mp5, specially those with high VE. That's not the same on mp4, because on mp4, people advance with a lot less eloquent tools. And they never learn to use them properly once they have them, because by then they are tops of mp4 with simple, blunt strategies.

Also, another thing that glitched your mind, i haven't ever intended to use means that might hurt anybody who doesn't deserve it. My attacks are unholy smart, not traps little newbies can fall into. If i try to cap, say, Bronzometh, Bronzometh gets capped. And all the people around Bronzometh don't even know i was there. When february wants to beat, say, dst, dst might be beaten. And 2-3 mp3 who are not aware of the threat get hit, too, and much more devasting than dst.

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[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1283107322' post='67309']

Also, another thing that glitched your mind, i haven't ever intended to use means that might hurt anybody who doesn't deserve it. My attacks are unholy smart, not traps little newbies can fall into. If i try to cap, say, Bronzometh, Bronzometh gets capped. And all the people around Bronzometh don't even know i was there. When february wants to beat, say, dst, dst might be beaten. And 2-3 mp3 who are not aware of the threat get hit, too, and much more devasting than dst.
[/quote]

This is not an excuse. The fact that you and February and anyone could do that is the problem. That is a fighting system problem that must be solved. no sacrificing caps and stats caps or any other caps you could think of will ever solve this problem. The fighting system must be fixed so that NO ONE can harm other players by getting them to exp cap.

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[quote name='Bronzometh' timestamp='1283110379' post='67313']
This is not an excuse. The fact that you and February and anyone could do that is the problem. That is a fighting system problem that must be solved. no sacrificing caps and stats caps or any other caps you could think of will ever solve this problem. The fighting system must be fixed so that NO ONE can harm other players by getting them to exp cap.
[/quote]

You may have overlooked my post. It doesn't completely prevent mp3s from being capped unwillingly, but it blocks accidental newbie capping.

[quote name='apophys' timestamp='1283107226' post='67308']
Suggestion:

When losing 100%, no player XP gained for the loser.

This wouldn't prevent februaries, but it would stop newbies being capped via angiens.
[/quote]

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I disagree.
I'm absolutely in favor of giving people power, also power that affects other players.
That's what makes MD dynamic and interesting. If it was only about beating the high-score, it would be just another bbg on a big market.

BUT with power comes responsibility. Like, some people can ban others, and use it responsible. Mur can do anything, and uses his powers responsibly (even though i don't always agree with what he does).
Others want the power, but don't have what it takes to use it responsibly. That is the problem, not the power itself.

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[quote]Suggestion:

When losing 100%, no player XP gained for the loser.

This wouldn't prevent februaries, but it would stop newbies being capped via angiens.[/quote]
[font="Book Antiqua"][color="#696969"]
It doesn't cover all situations Apophys.
e.g.
1 or more max angiens set to multi. Kill all but 1 crit. Losing player won't lose 100% still gonna get capped.[/color][/font]

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[quote name='Bronzometh' timestamp='1283110379' post='67313']
This is not an excuse. The fact that you and February and anyone could do that is the problem. That is a fighting system problem that must be solved. no sacrificing caps and stats caps or any other caps you could think of will ever solve this problem. The fighting system must be fixed so that NO ONE can harm other players by getting them to exp cap.
[/quote]
Burns capping GGG players is different from february capping random MP3s in that Burns restricted himself in who he would cap:
a) He said he would only cap MP4s
b) He said he would only cap them if they were using GGG
c) He gave warning on the forum, and if he did end up doing anything in the game, I'm sure he would've given warning there as well
d) He had a clear, constructive goal which he believed was good for the community, and was stated many times, before he even did anything.
Whereas february is doing it (most likely) unintentionally, to any random MP3 that happens to be in the same place that he's in and chooses to attack him. He has no constructive goal other than to show that he can use underhanded methods to raise creatures that can beat older players.

As for your concerns about VE, I got up to almost 30k VE through story mode and heads contest and such, and had that for quite a while before saccing a few creatures. Now I have 44k VE. I do just fine in fighting, even if I can't beat up people like dst and Metal Bunny. Try actually experiencing MP5 before saying that you know what you need to survive in it.

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There where a small number of posts I didn't read, but here is my suggestion:

For MP3:
I disagree with removing the ability to access the MD Shop, as that will not help them at all. What I suggest is limiting their access so they can't get the Rustgold or TS, or the Ritual of Self Oblivion, or the more powerful tokens. This can be achieved by adding an MP limit to those items, and an MP limit to receiving those creatures via CTC.
I also suggest removing access to the experience reset Wish, or limiting it to one. Again, can be done with MP level requirements.
I think Fyrd's suggestion of removing sacc rewards is good, but I think temporary effects should still apply. I also think that the experience loss from sacrifice should be removed for MP3. I think there should be a notice on the Fenths saying that when advanced you can get permanent stats from sacrificing.

This doesn't limit game play much, and allows MP3 to be able to see the benefits of advancing (more shop access, wishes, and stat gaining methods)

For MP4:
I would suggest just limiting the amount of stats gained per sacrifice (for the stats that have a variable increase based on how you raise the creature), and leaving everything else the same. There are a lot of players who play MP4 as an actual part of their role, and they shouldn't be restricted.

This allows players to get a further understanding of the tools they have, a wider access to creatures, and even for those who stay MP4 for their roles (Z, for example) to not be restricted (since few of the MP4 who are there for roles seem to have much interest in combat)

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[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]How about making the angien and drachs aquirable at any level, but the player must be MP4 or higher as a requirement for hatching?[/font][/color]

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The reason people are in this situation is because many don't want to go to MP5, so maybe what actually needs to be fixed is MP5 mode to make it more balanced and accessible both in terms of mechanics and the general attitude around it rather than scape goating the others based on one situation. Its all very well the MP5s saying there is nothing wrong with MP5, but clearly there are enough people not wanting to move there to show otherwise.

Burns - I think to give just one example; Blackwood has shown it isn't that surprisingly easy to beat MP5s.

From my perspective we have a situation where you go MP5, get absolutely pummeled by vets who all give you loses (wouldnt matter so much if they didnt) which means unless you play a major game of hide and seek you end up in stat loss and nobody wants that. I thought stat loss was supposed to stop major gains from unbalance not penalise new MP5s? Then in addition to that a highly visible proportion of said Mp5s opinion seems to be that because they can attack they will and that is that unless you come out and ask them. Now I don't think we should be in a situation where you have to ask players not to attack you, I'm sure it feels pretty demeaning to the new Mp5s to know they either have to hide or beg.

I'm just giving a different perpective as on the whole people commenting about Mp3 and MP4 are Mp5s themselves - and just as you say some can't comment because they don't live MP5, the same can be said of you in terms of the lower levels.

Z

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it seems that allot of ppl (except Burns, of course) disagree the idea of giving to some ppl the power to lvl up players. Well, in case you haven't noticed, everybody can gain the power of caping ppl, and that was already proven by February. This is almost equal with the power to lvl up others (the only difference is that the caped player decides if he will lvl up or continue playing at the same MP lvl without gains, or restart with a new char). This power must be taken away.

February not only that must not be punished. He should even be rewarded for proving the fact that the fighting system can give such power to everybody. This must be fixed asap. I presented the solution in a previous post.

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[quote name='Bronzometh' timestamp='1283179640' post='67365']
it seems that allot of ppl (except Burns, of course) disagree the idea of giving to some ppl the power to lvl up players. Well, in case you haven't noticed, everybody can gain the power of caping ppl, and that was already proven by February. This is almost equal with the power to lvl up others (the only difference is that the caped player decides if he will lvl up or continue playing at the same MP lvl without gains, or restart with a new char). This power must be taken away.

February not only that must not be punished. He should even be rewarded for proving the fact that the fighting system can give such power to everybody. This must be fixed asap. I presented the solution in a previous post.
[/quote]

You obviously dont understand the differences. What burns is against is giving the power to force people to advance. Which could be used on febuary. Anyone can cap people, but TOTALLY different to being able to force people to advance. Ok so i can cap Feb, But that does nothing, as he is already at cap.

This ability to cap people has been here for ages, its happened again and again. Its nothing knew.

From what i have seen in your posts about this issue, you obviously don't know much about MD. Saying that "if you explain the advantages to advance to feb and he may do it" is rather ridiculous as it seems painfully clear that he knows that. He isnt going to advance because he wants to play around with mp3's.

You need to think about what you are saying before you post it, othewise it just looks like you have blurted out the first idea that comes to mind. I dont see any idea that would fix the issue coming from you, but then again if i have missed it please do point it out.

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"There is no need of pop up singn, or flag, or any other indicator. The amount of vitality is more than enough to inform the attacker that the character he/she intends to attack is dangerous, and could cap him. New players just need to be informed about the risk, so that they can avoid it. But this would mean restricting the use of angiens in PvP attack rituals for MP3 and MP4 (except for contests). If this restriction could be coded (so that the system doesn't allow the use of angiens in attack rits, the rit that contains at least an angien will automatically be flagged as defense rit, and no defense rit could be used for attack - if that is possible to code), then the problem would be solved. However, this should not apply for alliance members and MP5, and this should not apply during contests."

when referring to alliance members, I was talking about removing the restriction for fighting other alliance members, not for fighting non-alliance members. That is my solution.

You know I could as well start capping allot of MP4, which definitely won't stand a chance if they will get to MP5. I could even destroy the game this way. Everybody could destroy the game if they want to. This is a huge problem.

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It isn't a huge problem, because if someone were to do that en masse that player would get punished. I am one of those who could cap you. Do I do it?

No.

And I can cap you as well with you being outside of alliance btw, and I know you are an mp4.

The thing you suggest isn#t even a solution, because no matter what newbies might still click attack..they dont know about exp and cap. So the defense rit would still cap them.

And the code you suggest is altering the combat system so greatly, that it will most likely never get done. (It's rare for mur to code something big like this)

Alas, this is about a case where it happened. It happened a few times, so we are talking about it now. Bronzometh..I advise you to think of it a bit more in future.

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[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1283182680' post='67375']
It isn't a huge problem, because if someone were to do that en masse that player would get punished. I am one of those who could cap you. Do I do it?

No.

And I can cap you as well with you being outside of alliance btw, and I know you are an mp4.

The thing you suggest isn#t even a solution, because no matter what newbies might still click attack..they dont know about exp and cap. So the defense rit would still cap them.

And the code you suggest is altering the combat system so greatly, that it will most likely never get done. (It's rare for mur to code something big like this)

Alas, this is about a case where it happened. It happened a few times, so we are talking about it now. Bronzometh..I advise you to think of it a bit more in future.
[/quote]


And what would stop others to do it? we are talking about 20 caped ppl here, by one character. Let's say that someone would be punished after caping 20 ppl. If that someone have 10 alts with some angiens, and he caps 20 players with each alt, imagine what would happen. Indeed, all his chars might be punished, but the dmg is done. Mur should think very carefully about this power that anyone can gain. The fact that you have it and don't use it is one thing, but the fact that anyone can have it is another thing, because someone might use it one day, if he/she chooses to play that role.

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Mur has means to celan the mess afterwards, and we have means to spot the mess before people get that far.
It always takes a case of severe abuse for Mur to start actually doing something, because a mathmatical problem doesn't really reach his poet-soul.

He is too creative, and too firmly believes in humanity, to change things when dst comes and says that something might turn into a problem. But now, he will do something, don't worry^^

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[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1283035424' post='67259']
stats cap is too hard restriction
i am considering sac limlt and an admistrative item for pushing to next mp but with a low reuse rate
no jail or punishment for february, no fixing of affected players (too hard to check all and be fair)
cap count sound also good but i fear its complicated to do especially on defence

keep telling your thought on that

thnx
[/quote]

This was the last post of Mur.

sac limit will only affect new players, whille some older players already have high vitality, enough to cap others using angiens.

administrative item for pushing to next MP with low reuse rate? in case that someone will actually do a mass capping with all their alts, will be too late to use that item.

cap count - same flaw: if it's set to 20, and a player have 10 alts - see the exemple from previous post.

So, the alternatives that Mur curently considers are not good enough. I still think that changing the fighting system is the only solution. I am sure that Mur will do something. I have no doubt. But what he curently considers is not enough.

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