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Killing In The Name Of......?

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since it involves death of Mya, your second, and number of actions concerning most of Lorerootian population, it pretty much gets some common points with "our" issue.

and you answered only to a part of it.
You were saying (as many else) how it is wrong to just be able to abuse such an overpowering item that destroys people's characters unrealistically (without their reaction), it is the same thing when you imprison a leader of an alliance, since my role was based on the Savelites not on me itself. And I invested much energy into it.

Maybe Mya crossed the line to Ivorak, as I crossed to you? :D

it is in your right to ATTEMPT to jail me, but the point is that it is overpoweringly unrealistic, jailing me WITHOUT MY POSSIBLE REACTION, as YOU TRYING TO MAKE YOUR OWN point that Mya's murder didn't allow reaction of her.
That is contradicting to me, is it to you?

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen

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Nope it isn't the same at all you dolt. Mya was targetted to what essentially amounted to a whim. Mya agreed to go along with the situation (if reluctantly) when it happened.
You were jailed because you crossed the line. You actually crossed the line several times beforehand in my opinion, but I ran out of chalk to draw anymore lines for you to push :D
I have to have a reason to jail someone, the use of an item it seems does not. So very different issues.
I won't respond anymore in the interest of not letting this derail anymore. As dst said, you can make another topic.

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and now a word from the grieving husband.

@Z: You mentioned during the quest a way to bring someone back to life something to do with Bob and at the time of the Torch Sagewoman was in the process of researching said method. It just happened that Mya got tired of being dead. So she opted out using the torch, I truly wish that if there were several ways of reviving a person that they would have been pointed out sooner and more then just one method. It possibly would have made things a lot more interesting for some people and there would be no messiness about how she came back.

@Rhaegar: Dst has a point your post is simply going against Firs, this topic is about the validity of using an item to kill someones character and the possible events and repercussions surrounding it, There may or may not be connections between the actions you are referring to but that is for another topic.

@everyone else: Regarding the imprisonment of Pample, Keith and Atlas. I'm not entirely certain what happened myself, Firs is right that things occurred outside the game that affected the outcome, I'm not entirely sure why Jester decided to go against the imprisonment of Pample but he did and not wishing to cause an even greater headache for herself Mya released them all and when they came back offering to fulfill their sentence Mya and Darigan had decided to avoid any more mishaps that might have occurred by simply letting them go.

edited for clarity Edited by Darigan

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@Darigan
(Well...this is pretty off the main topic or reason I made this....but then others made it directly about the quest instantly so I guess it isn't so offtopic in the grand scheme of things) Basically, I don't like spreading the butter on the bread for someone sitting right next to me with a knife of their own. In otherwords, I didn't say anything directly, but I did allude to things- and I eventually told you the Bob thing because I had waited so long hoping someone would have actually tried something but nobody did - and remember its a legend, it might not even be true, but is it worth a try to save Mya? I'd say damn straight it is. I appreciate Sage was working on it, but it took me really laying it on thick to someone I know very well to get anyone to take any real action (except Mojomuppet - kudos to you). Will I ever tell you something outright and make you not have to work it out? Highly unlikely.

There are so many ways to go about attempting revival and it would be trial and error, use the principles, inner magic, use your ghost abilities (I liked awi doing the whole talk with mya thing for example, so much more could have been attempted with that), use various ideologies you know of, pray, grind herbs, make potions, do a rain dance...ok maybe a rain dance wouldn't work but...you see what I'm saying? Don't be scared to try just because you might fail, because if you keep trying things, you might also succeed - and how fantastic would that be? What you do affects the game, never ever forget it.


Z
(you may now mod slap me)

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[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='17 June 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1276801321' post='62092']
I have to have a reason to jail someone, the use of an item it seems does not. So very different issues.
[/quote]
Actually, you do need a reason for using an item. If somebody goes around stabbing people for no reason, then everybody will start to complain, and remember the rules?

[quote]Main things that can get you banned:

Any repeated complain from multiple unique users will get some kind of unwanted action on you, try not to offend people, or to cause a mess in general[/quote]
Now, about the idea of somebody scripting an item to kill people; Why don't we just go and ask somebody to try it, and see what happens? Because there ARE ways to find out instead of just making another eight page topic full of people complaining and arguing.

EDIT: Just in case somebody says "Well, unwanted actions may not matter to Ivorak, or whoever else may have a shiny item", remember what happened to that MP3 who got a tree for Christmas and started regening other MP3s? He was banned. Imagine what Mur would do to somebody who stopped lots of people from actually playing the game, even if it was for a short amount of time. Edited by Pipstickz

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Pip have you actually been reading this thread? Or did yo simply jump in with a nonsense remark?
There are people arguing that the simple fact that the item is there means it can be used. No reason needed, no justification. It is an item that allows something to happen from a game mechanics point of view, therefore it is allowed. That being said. YOu have actually raised a point against such thinking and something that demonstrates that it is not simply allowed because it exists or can be done. Bravo, I am not sure how you managed that but you did. :D
I will chalk that up as another score for Z and company.

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Since Mur scripted the item himself, why don't we just ask Mur how he intended the item to be used in the first place? (I mean, aside from the obvious reason not to; because Mur is often too busy)

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Since Ivorak killed Mya without asking her first, I think we can already guess what his answer will be. Nevertheless there is still a debate on how it should be used, so I think the quickest way would be to ask the maker (Mur) how he intended it to be used at the first place.

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The thing is UD, that the issue is not so much this item. Mur scripted the item and we have been told that it won't be possible for players to script such items. That being said, people have a way of finding alternative means to do things. They may be able to achieve pretty destructive results that were not intended. The question remains. If you have an item that allows you to do something, is the mere fact that you have the item all the reason needed for using it? You could extend this to spells or any other feature of game mechanics. Like the example that Pip gave of an MP3 using regen on people. That is a game mechanic therefore it is allowed. But at the very least it is an amazingly crappy thing to be doing on people and one that will surely drive people away. Is that what you want?
Another example I can think of.
You have been attacking someone heavily. They ask you to stop because they are about to or are suffering stat damage. You don't have to stop. You can tell them that you are not breaking any rule. But consider this. Instead of refraining from attacking them for a little while so that they can get back to a better level (at which point you could be attacking them again) you continue to pummel them. They get frustrated and leave. Ohh, one person left, big whoop! WRONG. You have now denied yourself an opponent to attack and everyone else in MD. So you are actually losing out yourself. Secondly, that person is highly unlikely to recommend MD to a friend are they? I don't know about you, but in my experience a lot of people get into a game or hobby on the recommendation of a friend. That is how I came to MD, it wasn't advertising (not that advertising doesn't help, but it isn't the only method of getting people to join). And people will also shy away from one on the basis of criticism from a friend.

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I will be honest, I have not read all of the responses in this thread because seriously, some of them I am incredibly disappointed with. A few of these replies make me want to ask: "Does anyone even remember that we are to make our own fun in this game? Does anyone even know how to have fun anymore?"

No the quest was not perfectly constructed to a T, spitshined and covered in protective wax.
No quest in the game of MagicDuel ever will be.

The point is that this was a decent attempt to actually do something creative and entertaining in the game for people who are more than obviously bored with how things have been progressing. It was by far, in my opinion, the most entertaining thing to occur in game in a long, long while.

I appreciate the work that was put into constructing the plot arc, not everyone was happy with some of the things that occurred and not everyone was able to be involved, but for those who were able to be involved seemed to be enjoying themselves with it. Really, is a game not about having fun? Did we forget that?

Just remember, Keith did not have to write an entertaining quest for any of you, he did not have to give rewards for your enjoyment either. The fact is that he did, and any number of people could have been involved if they had truly wanted to be.


[i]Edited for clarity.[/i] Edited by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

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If you read the very first post wasn't directed at the quest itself and picking it apart, but I did have to write it in a certain way to cover all the previous objections raised in the original thread. Unfortunately by the second post it was taken that way and then off it went for certain individuals. Some of us are still [i]trying[/i] to stay on topic though. Nobody has said the quest wasn't fun, nobody has said the quest shouldn't have happened - so don't tell me because we want to discuss an issue surrounding it that affected and affects everyone in the game, that that means we think it was a crap idea.

Some people don't like discussion and debate because they don't like conflict. I am sitting here, attempting, to help you avoid future conflicts of a certain kind. A substantial number of people have been offended by the lack of consideration given via the process of killing via an item that is currently mechanically possible - that much should now be obvious. The response, on the whole from the other side has been "I don't care, it's possible, it's allowed, so I'll do it."

Now unless the reason that point is being ignored is because of some obvious chess move I won't comment on, there is no reason for anyone to be puffing up their feathers and throwing their rattles out of the pram saying we are trying to do something we arn't. The discussion has demonstrated a 50/50 split in opinion that appears to be irresolvable, which means repercussions in the future. There isn't really anything else to be said now that I can see.

Z

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' date='19 June 2010 - 06:16 AM' timestamp='1276946215' post='62240']
If you read the very first post wasn't directed at the quest itself and picking it apart, but I did have to write it in a certain way to cover all the previous objections raised in the original thread. Unfortunately by the second post it was taken that way and then off it went for certain individuals. Some of us are still [i]trying[/i] to stay on topic though. Nobody has said the quest wasn't fun, nobody has said the quest shouldn't have happened - so don't tell me because we want to discuss an issue surrounding it that affected and affects everyone in the game, that that means we think it was a crap idea.
[/quote]

Who is to say that anything of what was mentioned above is directed at you or your opinions? It was something I felt should be said after certain few individuals decided to blow some things out of proportion, if that's a crime, negative rep me again. Edited by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

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Its not a crime, but its totally off topic and an over-reaction(just like that was) and just exhaserbates a situation that is for all intent and purpose unnecessary. If you want to comment about how people comment on quests, start a new thread, don't hijack mine for some moral crusade. Sorry if that's harsh.

and..."if that's a crime, neg rep me again"...come on. What is this? Knee kicking time? If you really think what you say is a valid point (and I believe a number of people would agree with you) then start a topic to discuss it, I'd be happy to see that. I'm not happy to see another post that is offtopic and emotionally evocative however. Especially after the thread had died down and the situation was pretty clear.

If you have something to say on the actual question at hand, I would love to hear it.

Z

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' date='19 June 2010 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1276947058' post='62244']
Its not a crime, but its totally off topic and an over-reaction(just like that was) and just exacerbates a situation that is for all intent and purpose unnecessary. If you want to comment about how people comment on quests, start a new thread, don't hijack mine for some moral crusade. Sorry if that's harsh.

and..."if that's a crime, neg rep me again"...come on. What is this? Knee kicking time? If you really think what you say is a valid point (and I believe a number of people would agree with you) then start a topic to discuss it, I'd be happy to see that. I'm not happy to see another post that is offtopic and emotionally evocative however. Especially after the thread had died down and the situation was pretty clear.

If you have something to say on the actual question at hand, I would love to hear it.

Z
[/quote]

You know, it is a valid point considering that I did not choose to reply to this thread until I was calm enough to do so. If you truly want my opinion on what is being discussed currently I will simply say that I have no opinion on the matter concerning the knife.

My only concern in this whole mess were not only some of the rude and bothersome comments made about Mya Celestia while she was essentially 'deceased', but some of the comments made at the beginning of this thread as well.

Personally, I don't see that the fact that the topic has changed a tiny bit is a good reason for me to not speak up for what I felt should have been said at the very beginning of this thread.

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I never said you shoudn't speak up, in fact I just told you to speak up. I just suggested you do it in the right topic so as not to derail this any further than it already is. The reaosn "I" replied, is because you directed it generally at everyone, if you wanted to be specific perhaps you should have been.

But sure, carry on as usual, why not.

Z

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' date='19 June 2010 - 06:16 AM' timestamp='1276946215' post='62240']A substantial number of people have been offended by the lack of consideration given via the process of killing via an item that is currently mechanically possible - that much should now be obvious. The response, on the whole from the other side has been "I don't care, it's possible, it's allowed, so I'll do it."
[/quote]
That point is valid, and it stands. My intention was to use something wholly in the game, of the game, for the game in order to create an interesting quest that tells a story. I can see in retrospect why the one-sidedness of Ivorak's dagger caused problems, raised objections, and so forth. My intention is not to kill someone else without permission again; my intention is merely to find another character, event, or thing around which a story may be woven. Whatever the focus is, it must be a [i]MagicDuel[/i] thing rather than a story woven from personal backstories or other out-of-game considerations.

Unfortunately I didn't make it clear from the start that the incident of Mya's assassination was meant to provoke a relatively large-scale fight. In my mind, the ideal MagicDuel quest offers something to all players, from snooty roleplayers to cunning (or in some cases, stubborn) grinders and all points in between, including those who wish nothing more than to create havoc. The trick is getting the right people involved in the setup and assuring their consent to the story and its open-ended structure, all the while keeping the whole thing secret. Impossible? Of course not. But difficult all the same.

I am grateful to you, Z, for raising the issue of consent. Though many of us are adults and theoretically can separate in-game events from real life emotions, things don't always work out so neatly. You haven't dismantled me, and I did not intend to imply you had; you have raised the standard for such an endeavor, and that is a good thing.

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' date='19 June 2010 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1276946215' post='62240']
Some people don't like discussion and debate because they don't like conflict. I am sitting here, attempting, to help you avoid future conflicts of a certain kind. A substantial number of people have been offended by the lack of consideration given via the process of killing via an item that is currently mechanically possible - that much should now be obvious. The response, on the whole from the other side has been "I don't care, it's possible, it's allowed, so I'll do it."
[/quote]
I love debating, but what are we to add to this?
Certainly everybody knows that "not caring" isn't a viable answer. MD has this premise called 'actions have consequences'. Granted, it often takes two years to notice them, but Mur circumvents this by not believing time is linear. One day there'll be other items with other powerful effects or maybe there'll be a trial or maybe people will just stop liking, trading, talking and sparring with you because nobody likes someone who doesn't behave responsible while having great power (except narcissists).

"It's allowed so I'll do it" Usually we tend to split people into RP and fighters, yet this statement doesn't allow that. The item was used for role play if I understood it right. We have some people who believe in game mechanics and we have some who don't; I think I've argued against mechanics as absolute on various occasions and I'll do so again. Game mechanics dictates you CAN do some things, by now way does this imply you SHOULD do them. There's even contradictory rules 'if you think something is an exploit or a bug you should report it' and 'people creating items which are inappropriate will have their ability removed'. They don't explicitly address the using of powerful items, yet it does show we're supposed to behave responsible. If you don't believe me, then look at the first paragraph again...
And then there's the whole roleplay thing: role play implies placing restrictions upon yourself. If you play an evil character, you're not supposed to do nice things; if you play a nice and/or sane/thinking character, you shan't kill someone just because you CAN. The only reason I can imagine Kafuuka killing someone is if they'd eaten all his cookies, set fire to all the granaries and sowed salt into the farms.. and frankly, they'd deserve worse than death for that.
I hardly doubt half of the role players have a proper excuse to kill someone's character, and I doubt even more they'd be able to foresee the consequences if the other party goes along with their role play, regardless of motive.

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I am extremely late to this party, as loss of internet and then travel caused me to miss this thread entirely, but since I was quoted in the first post, I would like to further clarify my views.

Magic Duel is not an exceptionally dark place. Although Mur claims that one of the keys to MD is balance, I would beg to argue that light certainly trumps dark here. Part of the reason for this, I think, is the great amount of people who feel able to step outside of the game world and shout unfair when something happens that they don't like. There are more daisies and sunshine and so a majority don't seem to like rolling with the occasional punch when it comes. That these punches [i]are[/i] occasional no doubt means that they will be more headline news here compared to other games where killing and revival are quite common.

My comments stemmed from this- when something is apart of the game reality, such as the stone dagger and the ability to kill, why do people feel the need to step outside of the reality of MD to cry unfair when it is quite simply apart of the game? It is apart of the game, created by Mur, and you agreed a long time ago to participate in MD come what may, therefore why the complaint? Since it is apart of the game world, I also don't understand why there seems to be this need for permission to use something that is in and apart of the game. Perhaps this sounds a bit cold. Maybe it is. But these are still the facts of the matter when you get down to it. If some find it that great of a travesty, however, instead of complaining about how an item was used properly, perhaps those who are that upset by it should question the existence of the item itself, perhaps to Mur. However, since Necrovion is the place of Death, and they have distributed Death as they saw fit using the tools given them, I can't see that getting very far.

Since someone brought up also that there should've been more role play to it, how much more RP can you get than using an actual, tangible game item? Also, unless you use the blue text to *ties up <person> and gags them so that they cannot move* you'll be spending all day with your foe going *attempts to tie up <person>* and you responding with *struggles free* back and forth and back and forth because without some amount of 'unfairness' brought on by absolute moves, someone will always manage to use a deus ex machina to escape in some fashion, thus getting no one anywhere and that is not productive to the story or to RP.

Part of role playing is also spontaneity. If everything is scripted and agreed to beforehand, I can't imagine that really being interesting in the slightest. One of the major fun points regarding RP is having to respond suddenly to a situation, whatever that may be cause by whomever, and finding your own ways using the laws of the land to combat it. There is creativity in that, not in polite negotiations where you already know the outcome.

Anyway, this has gotten long- my apologies as I'm sure a few of you have already gone tl;dr. Still, since I was one of the few quoted, I thought I should try to clarify a bit.

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[quote name='dst' date='30 June 2010 - 06:56 AM' timestamp='1277902569' post='63024']
@Aysun: I can do lots of things in the game. Nasty things. The game allows me. Should I go and do them just because I can? It's easy for me to do it but would you enjoy me doing it to you for example?
[/quote]

You're a moderator of the forum, therefore I assume that you have special mod abilities in game as well. If not, please correct me- I'm just assuming here. If it's something that everyone else as a whole has the ability, or in time has the potential to do (such as something from the wish shop for example), then it's up to your discretion whether you want to do it or not. I don't count god/mod abilities, though, and god/mod abilities weren't used here nor are they available to everyone.


[size="1"]edited for clarification.[/size] Edited by Aysun

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[quote name='Aysun' date='30 June 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1277906765' post='63033']
You're a moderator of the forum, therefore I assume that you have special mod abilities in game as well. If not, please correct me- I'm just assuming here. If it's something that everyone else as a whole has the ability, or in time has the potential to do (such as something from the wish shop for example), then it's up to your discretion whether you want to do it or not. I don't count god/mod abilities, though, and god/mod abilities weren't used here nor are they available to everyone.


[size="1"]edited for clarification.[/size]
[/quote]

being a forum mod means NOTHING ingame.

Being a moderator has nothing todo with your role, Only gives you some work to do on the forum, and doesnt make you more "powerful". please DO NOT assume.

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[quote name='Chewett' date='30 June 2010 - 08:11 AM' timestamp='1277907118' post='63037']
being a forum mod means NOTHING ingame.

Being a moderator has nothing todo with your role, Only gives you some work to do on the forum, and doesnt make you more "powerful". please DO NOT assume.
[/quote]

Thank you for correcting me. :))

However since she has the ability to look at logs IN GAME that others cannot, or only that specific individuals are able to have access to, there must be some sort of distinction. This is essentially what I meant in this case.

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[quote name='Aysun' date='30 June 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1277908522' post='63039']
However since she has the ability to look at logs IN GAME that others cannot, or only that specific individuals are able to have access to, there must be some sort of distinction. This is essentially what I meant in this case.
[/quote]

if you refere to CTC logs and such, anyone can view these.

If you refere to Pulling chat logs from a location, That was givent to her and others by Mur. If you say that everyone who was given X or Y by Mur is "higer up" or "special" then it seems like most of mp5 is special since prettymuch all the vets have recieved some sort of power, spell or creature from mur.

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