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Fenrir Greycloth

Creative Punishment

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So, we have seen several players throughout MD who have no regard for any of the rules set up by Mur, or the Community.

We can't ban them permanently, but we can do the next best thing!

So... I bring you the...

[center][b]The MagicDuel Behavior Modification Program:[/b][/center]


Or... [b]MagicDuel Inhumane Tickle Torture for Extreme Nitwits[/b]!

[The Name is Subject to Change]

The Purpose:

To embarrass, humiliate, and punish the individuals amongst us that annoy us with their disregard for anyone else but themselves.

The Goal:

To humiliate the subjects of MITTENs to the point where they learn to be more docile, and become integrated within our society(if all goes well) or they get tired of the MITTENs program and become hermits(leave).

The Way:

Using the current system of holding Trials(rarely ever held but still current), we hold public court hearings with a judge(a neutral person), a jury(our Community), Prosecuter(someone responsible for bringing the unjust behaviours of the Defendant to light) and the Defendant. Last, but not least, the Executioner. The prosecutor will try the Defendant, let them plea their case, and defend themselves while the Jury sits quiet. Once the prosecutor and defendant are finished, the Jury has their turn to ask the Defendant questions about their behaviour, offenses, and items of relevance.

Once this stage is finished, the Judge, the Jury, and the Prosecutor retire and converse about the trial, and come up with a suitable punishment.

The Executioner shall uphold the punishment suitable to the case.

How:

The Judge must be able to separate him or herself from emotions, but still be able to think rationally. These people are few and far in between. So, we must choose carefully on who the Judge may be.

The Prosecutor must be able to bring evidence, witnesses, and proof that the Defendant is guilty.

The Jury must be able to think creatively, and constructively when deciding whether the Defendant is guilty, or whether the evidence is powerful enough to bring about a punishment.


Edit:

Please tell me what you think, any suggestions, and any constructive criticism is MORE than welcome! Edited by Fenrir Greycloth

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Apophys, you draw a good point, but I left out the defense purposely.

The people who are friends of the people who would be subject to MITTENs are either similar to the defendant, or are not willing to jeopardize themselves.

I do not agree with forcing people to defend the Defendant either...

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I suppose a public vote shall be viable, but that depends on how the MITTENs takes hold. It may become a committee, or it may be a case by case scenario since personal conflicts are possible.

EDIT:

This is not something I will do, but us as a community. I would like to see this become an integral part of the control of a certain type of behaviour. Edited by Fenrir Greycloth

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I recommend trials be conducted on the forums, so that a trial proceeds swiftly, not having to wait until several unique people come online (which could be abused by the defender). A bonus would be to deter rash decisions and promote transparency. Courtroom logs would automatically be saved.

A minimum of staff would be necessary this way; several trials could proceed at once (if need be), and timezones are irrelevant.

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Sorry, apophys, I think the Forum should be the [b]LAST [/b]place to conduct a trial.

First, they would never end, look at some of these topics that have drawn out for too long, people have lost interest and frankly, nothing gets accomplished. Punishments should be swift, decisive and brutal.

Also, in-game matters, in my opinion, should be dealt with in-game. The Forum should be a suppliment, not a replacement to MD.

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The Trial System in place is meant for major abuses. I doubt Mur has the time to go through every trial that may or may not need to happen.

This is a community project, not an official program.

If Mur supports this idea, and agrees to the punishments, then awesome, but I want people to keep in mind that the punishments that will happen, should be kept to the means capable by those involved. (Or perhaps requests be made to Mur for certain punishments)

Edit: Forgot to respond to the rest of your post...

We need a system set up to decide the offenders punishment, to make it fair, and not to extreme. Edited by Fenrir Greycloth

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"Behavior Modification Program" connected with trials rang some unpleasant bells, so i might be reading that whole topic from a completely wrong point of view, but i'm simply against any of those ideas

There are no fair trials whe the jury is the community, they are also not fair when Mur or Grido are playing Inquisition, but at least they consider things in peace and quiet, it's really easy to swing the mood of the mob to get whatever result you want -.-

Apart from that, i was expecting something completely different from that topic xD

I think Mur has a nice idea with the curse, though it should probably be extended for a longer time, or any other accounts of the cursed ones should be inaccessible for the time of the curse or something... (i also think anybody who has an account in jail shouldn't be allowed to log in on another account for that time, but that's another issue)

As another idea i could imagine taking away all the creatures 'cept for the weakest one from the account that is to be punished for the time s/he spends on cutlers 'stock', which obviously comes with considerable age-loss, which surely is a punishment most people wouldn't want to provoce

On the slightly more evil side: Permanent ToadSpeak and inability to send PMs would punish those who don't care about their creatures pretty effectively imo *harhar*

and of course, repeating myself, anybody who has a punished account shouldn't be allowed to access another account, else the whole punishment-character is simply a joke, as IaB proved several times -.-

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I have to agree with Burns - the whole courtroom/trial idea as proposed makes me very, very leery. A fair trial in a mixed-age, multicultural, international internet community such as MD is more or less impossible, and only Mur* has the right, in my opinion, to render a verdict or issue a punishment with reference to player behavior. Quite apart from the issue of fairness is the matter of bureaucracy. The proposed system involves a lot of people and presupposes they have the time and interest to do something completely other than what they presumably came to MD to do: have fun. Nothing about bureaucracy or the work it entails is fun. No - just, no.

The idea of creative punishments is another matter. I'd like to hear more discussion on that, please. Some of the ideas put forth sound pretty amusing.

*or one of his chosen surrogates, such as Grido, Akasha, et al.

[b]Edited for clarity[/b] Edited by Tarquinus

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Not sure I like the idea too much. If you want to establish one, sure, go ahead, but I would like to say my opinion goes towards Burns' direction.

Also, creative punishments..which kind of those can you create without their consent? You cannot touch their creatures, you cannot touch their stats (if they decide to save them, unless you have admin tools and abuse them), you cannot touch their papers (only PL..which wouldnt be the best place to spam at), you cannot restrict their movement (spells only work for so long), so what is left?

Usually the best people can come up with is things like regen or so, I don't see many things you could do here.

If otherwise, please enlighten me.

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on last thing on this trials
what would judges base upon to give a verdict
who would decide what crime is to become before a judge and wich isn't
we do not have a law or anything like that...
and if judge and jury can descide...
well people put in power are easily corupt and emotions arn't a good advisor
but both will happen...
there was enough comotion about the 'attack' on the gates of the necro
what would happen if this was the case every day over a judge sending one to jail...
it would destroy MD

Mankind needs structure power and coruption to survive
we are making the same mistakes building this comunity as we did in building the comunity in RL...
I tough MD was a escape from reality but were doing the same thing here
trying to create an Utopia by putting everyone who reacts in a wrong way or bahaves in a wrong way in jail and that isn't a solution...
and mostly the ones pointing at other ones have done worse things...

this does not mean i agree with al that has happened the last couple months it is true there has been more 'bad' behaviour, and this isn't wat we want people to see when they com to this place

I think if nesecery to jail people as mentioned before if 1 of alts is in jail you are unable to log in into other accounts

people doing wrong thing are half of the times a cry for atention
who are we to punish them...

and talking of torture or behaviour modification... realy?!

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I am against this idea, it will not be a fair one.

Proof:

Let's take Rednecks case...yeah we all don't like him, he may or many NOT done something, there is not an existing proof. (beside being annoying)

He asked, like many others if he can have a trip and Grido tricked him.

He is in jail on no reason, (based on Mur's rules that you seem to want to respect so badly), thou the 'community '/jurry voted to keep him there, and came with 'inventive punishments'.
The judge in this case was Grido who put him there, also by not respecting the rule we got told regarding the ban spell : "no trips allowed".

Conclusion: if someone is not liked, then the community acts without thinking at what rules they break when there is no prof or reason to punish someone.
He got judge on 'do we like him or not' not on "on what reason he got the ban in that night"
Nobody is neutral.

And the only judge is Mur and i think he is the most fair when it comes to this.

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...well im not going to say Anything about that last post.. at all

But there is something i would like to say in regards to Creative punishments!

In our midsts there is a persistant offender who has plagued MD for me, in all of my existence, and little has ever been said..

picture the scene..

The golden orange evening sun is shimmering and its glow seems to bounce off the water, onto the deep green fronds of the willow branch. The branch dangles dreamily to the lake, it seemed as if it was willow himself was touching the water with his own long slender finger tip.

an idilic moment... and Thats when it happens!

You feel a force in your face pushing at your mouth and you clam your eyes shut in shock. Like two pulsating tenticles, the lips smother you and slurper. You darent open your eyes let alone breath, and then thank god it gives way. This time the lips like two slugs, slowly pluck themselves away from you face and you bring your arm up to soak up the slime.

O.o

if is someone like um - kiss rapes you persistently, what should be the punishment??!!

i could try to message the offender *ahem mentioning no names!* from lots of alts bombarding them Hahahhaha
mm that would take too long...
or um
maybe i should name and shame and get everyone to change their PL about the offender into a kiss, wait..they'd like that!?

and this goes out to all those people who "say hello" by jumping on my back!
im thinking up something evil to do to you too!

(i decided to make a story, see its "creative" punishments :P )

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if someone need lawyer please let me know :P

by the way, its much more complicated then it seems: many jobs will be needed to follow this idea and they will need to get payed somehow....

Edited by Dmik King

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First of all, this system propsed here could be easly abused. How? You dont like how someone is behaving, you report it, you make sure that you are in good relationships with jury, judge and hey, even a lawyer etc. and i predict this or similar [b]will happen[/b] in course of time. Why? That is simple, because human being is manipulative and may it pretend to be "oh-so-good-and-honest" it will [b]always[/b] look for its best interest, may it be the game or rl. Look just at how much [b]injustice[/b] is happening in rl trials. Does anybody want to be taken responsible to bring that in here also? I think that there is a lot of people here that would love to have a chance and get a seat in jury, they might not admit it aloud or maybe even not to themself, but they are.

The second thing is, that there is no objectivity even if you try to reach it. You have feelings and with having them, pof, the objectivity transforms into holy smoke. You hear this, you hear that, you read this, you read that and voila, you form an opinion. You might think it is based on facts but in reality is not. You will lean to the side that "suits you best".

The third thing... You would take away from people to have characters that they want to have and that is repression. Yes, again something that we realy dont like in rl, right, well at least if we are not the ones that get repressed, if it is other way around some would or care less or even be those who repress. I understand that some characters in game might annoy you, make you mad and so on but at same time some other people might like them for what they are. And again... do you want to play in a sandbox where only those who behave to your standards exist or would you like to chalenge yourself and try to co-exists, maybe even see them "oh-that-so-popular-light" in non-repressing manner? I would prefer the second.

So how to solve this? Quite easy actualy... If someone is "rp-raped", well, we do have jail and if the prof exists great, send it there but dont let him/her rot away. "Hire" some prison guards, offer psychologist to find the problem in that specific character etc.
Or lets say the "rp-smootching" that sisterhood does... Some of people out there dont like it (sorry "sisters") and if someone doesnt want to be "rp-smooched" and he is... well, then the person that "rp-smootched" him did also sexual offence! What about that, eh? Since "rp-rape" is not allowed (I am NOT tolerating it and am against it also, before you get confused) then this should be dealed with also, or are we looking only in one side. It is obvious example of duality. And now, since none of "you" pointed this out, do you realy think that any of you would be suitable for being a jury or a judge? I dont think so, sorry.
If someones char is mentaly ill, hey, put up a real sanatory with so-called medical staff to take care for that char. I bet there are some of us out there that are interested in psychology, not necesseraly by occupation, and would find "fun" with trying to handle the situation. I am not blaming or pointing out at anybody in here, I am meerly using this as an example.
But again, I dont believe that could be done withing comunity itself and Mur would have to step in probably.

Anyhow, that is my opinion on the matter. Thank you.

Edited for the second time to add this:
I am talking here in general, I am not pointing fingers at anybody and I hope you can deal with it even if you dont agree with what I have just written. Edited by LadyDawn

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Thats not a punishment

Thats just rude, What about all the premium crits they bought. Thats basicly an account reset. Something thats a stupid idea and just like a ban and would make them leave.

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It's in a sense even worse than a ban. And why do we have a seperate topic if Fenrir discussed the punishment in his old one?

Next time please use search function, or others, because I believe you were inspired by that topic.

edit: Merge. Found the topic. Edited by Shadowseeker

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