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Amoran Kalamanira Kol

Hoarding Of Creation Items

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I think it was meant just as an idea (you don't see suggestions of the rules in that sort of system), if it is the desire of most, the solution can be easily found, so no point in finding 30 holes in an offtopic thought

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As Rhaegar said, it was just a random idea, but I'll humour you ;)

[quote name='Chewett' date='07 February 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1265579775' post='54015']
So how do you tax trades?

unless you revamp the system, how would you make people pay these taxes? unless you work it from every X coins traded you have to pay some, it wont work since how does the system know every time you "trade"?
[/quote]

2 ways:
Either each transfer of silver has the tax percentage withdrawn, therefore the receiver gains a perentage less (as with age on creatures)
Or you pay VAT (value added tax), in other words, you pay the percentage in addition to the amount, so to give someone 10 silver, you must pay 11 in this case.
Payment would be defined as any time you send someone silver. Trade can't be defined fully, since we can barter with items not tangible in MD, such as information or even artistic works.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='07 February 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1265579937' post='54016']
And even then, there are ways to circumvent that..another reason for alt abuse. Say every 10% is tax, so you make them pay you in 9 silver on alts you name. No tax then.
[/quote]
Alts can no longer transfer creatures to eachother, do the same with silver, or make them pay heavier taxes.
Any amount that makes the tax less than 1 silver, is either free of tax, billed a flat rate of 1 silver, or even deducted by some other method like VP decrease.


Anyway, this doesn't solve the item hoarding, it was an idea in response to Metal Bunny's post regarding the devaluation of money.

Edited by Rendril

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I see a much easier solution.

We have Gold, we have Silver, why not add Bronze? This way, Bronze is worth 10% of Silver, and Silver is worth 10% of Gold.

That way the system would subtract ten percent of a silver so that the receiver would end up with either 9 bronze, or subtract 10% from the original owner depending on how the system is set up.

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and the relationship between Gold and Silver is only what it is, because the community decided to set it as that, if suddenly there's a lot more silver than Gold, the balence should theoretically shift and the trade value change with it

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[quote name='Rendril' date='07 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265585142' post='54024']
This still leaves the same problem, how to reduce a tax on less than 10 bronze.
[/quote]

Well, shortly I will be releasing a new and fairly significant update to the astral plane which will have a large number of interactive items which can be used combined and traded among different people. As part of that update I have implemented a cash system with copper and pennies. Copper have a fixed value of 10 copper = 1 silver and there are 100 pennies in a copper.

Although I have not implemented a taxation system, there will be several stores (the first to be released next week is the bait and tackle shop) in which you can buy items and services. Although 1 silver is a large amount 1 penny is not being only 1/1000th of a silver.

Hopefully once this is released, having a functioning system which can allow an easy buy/sell of items and services will help improve the MD economy. I already have several people working with me to implement future projects which will allow further ways for money to be used.

As has been posted on this thread a few times, the only way an economy can work is if there is a flow of money. Using the MD items that can't work due to scarcity of resources, but those same items can be used to back/value a fluid money which will allow a much richer set of interactions within MD in the future.

Cheers,

Cutler

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this doesn't sound anymore like you're making a feature that will help making of quests, but more like game within the game.
It seems Cutler that you're trying to achieve that people spend more time in astral plane, but doing so they make less time for actual MD world (this can be applied for RL-MD O_o). And any possessions within the astral plane do not affect your game play "outdoors" in MD.

You've really worked on it outstandingly, but perhaps it went on too much

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People spend more time in GGG or stat farming
because of the issues with item hording in general.
amongst other issues. RP is not being done because no
one feels they get rewarded for doing such.

Have you not notice how much less activity there is
this i feel is because of item hording and RP being
ignored.

Gaining items to be able to create items should be easy enough
but it is not whit this current system. I for one would love
to get some items created. BUT i am not willing to pay
30/40 silver per item and a WP to get it made.

Getting the silver alone is hard enough.
So this in essence would make getting an item created
cost you 90/120 silver BEFORE one get a WP to use.
This is ridiculous and thoes that are hording have no REAL
reason to do so. This excuse of it is my characters role to
collect items is Bull. you choose that to be so to make excuses
for hording items nd ripping people off.

Unfortunatly the only real way to resolve this is have the items
made so common that it no longer matter but then that in its self runes the
whole RP side of things. RP need to have some way of being rewarded
as it does not get put into the AL, or is only known by very few.
What is the point in RP'ing if it become a complete waste of time?


Sorry i am on a rant so i will stop now.

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I think the whole point of RP is to have fun, we don't really need any 'reward' for RP-ing, because, in essence, the reward is the fun we get from doing it in the first place.

I agree that items should cost much less to make though, 20-30 silver + WP for most medium-intricateness items is a much more suitable cost IMO.

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I totally agree with Udgard, RP is supossed to be fun, no reward is required.
About items, like I have always said, items are made to be USED, hoarding its not something to be proud of.
I've read many items will start to appear on MD quite soon, hopely they are to be used and dont become priceless and just collective objects too.
Regards,
K

[From what I seen apparently No Man's Land wont receive items, cause of the lack of royal authority... not too happy about it] Edited by Kriskah Arcanu

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There is always the solution of limiting the number of items of each type a person is able to have.

From what I have seen, Items come in "rare", "common", "raw", and "coin" classes.

If people were limited to say 4 raw items, 5 common, and infinite coin and rare items, it should help reduce hoarding.
That way, the more RP related items you don't have restrictions on, but items like raw materials that you AREN'T supposed to hoard, you won't be able to keep.

There are also usable items, but generally they have a restriction that either destroys them or returns them to a specific person, making them harder to hoard (hoarding makes them largely worthless)

Obviously, the values there are largely random and would have a lot of factors involved when deciding on them.

If the restrictions to items was placed on everyone, and then players like Udgard and Kragel had their values adjusted (or even all restrictions removed) to suit their role as crafters, since then would logically use the most raw items for RP, it would probably be best. Also, if the crafters had no restrictions for carrying raw items, you could reduce everyone elses max to 1 or 2, and they could just hand them over one at a time as they gather the ingredients.

This would effectively gut anyone who is hoarding and doesn't actually use items for RP (But it will probably cause some issues for you, Czez :P)

Since Hoarders won't willingly give up any items putting them back under the limit, it would probably be good to impose a time limit (say 3 months, to be fair even if they don't deserve it) after which ANYONE with more items than the limit allows for any category looses every item in every category, including coins.

IAB, you can't complain about this since you claim to be "Hoarding so others can't", this makes it so that no-one can hoard those sort of items, as well as leaving you with time to still make a profit. Guess you should be happy, since you are getting exactly what you claimed you were doing this for, to "Keep others from hoarding"

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Just as an example, my char Czez has used [b]Cedar B[i]ark[/i][/b] in an adventure-quest, which generated several unique items and could have easily included this one. Later, she received as a gift a [b]Cedar [i]Plank[/i][/b], which is considered a "Raw" item. Do I really have to spend a WP to make [i]Bark[/i] from a [i]Plank[/i] (which is sort of implausible) in order to keep this item in my char's inventory?

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Just curious, that is one item of..14. And could it possibly be that this particular item was given regardless of your previous quest? From what i heard the raw materials were randomly distributed, and not in accordance to previous quests or anything.

Well, can't say much here since I slowly tend to turn into an item hoarder, with me getting items (back) unexpectedly and getting pass papers...

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Shadowseeker, we are talking about "raw" items. The other items that were generated uniquely for my char based on rp, or were given to her for her role, are not for you to count. I acquired, through gifts or purchases, a number of "raw" items, some of which I intend to use in creation of more complex custom items from the crafters, as everyone else can do. Some of them however, are very similar to unique items I use in rp.

How is my char supposed to see a difference in cedar, whether plank or bark, when it was used in the same way as the pine needles and tar which are uniquely hers? Similarly, she climbed rocks on Mount Kelletha to reach Winderwild nests… this rp did not generate items, but it could have as it was not much different from rp that generated other items. Later, she got some winderwild eggshells, technically "raw". You are not entitled to these items. I don't keep them for market value. They have same rp value for my char no matter where they come from: RP, purchase, gift, or Crafted. If you want more items, do more interesting RP because that is where most of them are generated, though even with that sincere effort, which too few people make, it is rare.

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@Kyphis:you should not set a limit to coins. Coins are gained mainly from MD Shop. And it would not be fair to limit them. But I agree with the other limits. Also, I have an idea: if someone wants additional items that person has to buy a slot from WP Shop. First I thought at MD Shop but we already have Shape Shifter's example who bought all his items more or less with credits.

@Czez:I read all your arguments and I still cannot believe how much hypocrisy and lies they contain. Keep up the good work! You're amazing at it!

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[quote name='Czez' date='15 February 2010 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1266259907' post='54548']
are not for you to count.

You are not entitled to these items. I don't keep them for market value.

If you want more items, do more interesting RP because that is where most of them are generated, though even with that sincere effort, which too few people make, it is rare.
[/quote]

Well, just to point out something:

Leaving out the sextant and charts, tar and pine you just named, and even the eggs. (which I see as raw)

Oh, and the horseshoe.

Which makes..6/14 which i just leave out in this case study. Makes 8 more to go.

Hm..interesting no? And even if you say they are not mine to count, I count them merely by looking at the item owners list. That's not me stalking you to find out every item you possess, it's just the plain old list. Perhaps you don't keep them for market value, perhaps for RP, but to many it looks as if you keep them for the list, or the fact in itself that you have items.

And..I hope that last sentence of yours isn't a challenge to me, but more pointed at the majority of hoarders. Who that includes..I leave up to everyone to decide. Because if you think that way..perhaps I should go trying to trade a bit more, just to see how many I can get. Then again, what is the use with too many items? It just shows off on a list, and little more.

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I don't want to be on the list at all. I voted in the other thread about this, and even suggested an alternative list of Items, so people can search but those of use who've acquired items in legitimate ways for rp or role-related reasons don't have to be accused of hoarding.

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[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' date='15 February 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1266207581' post='54494']
... and infinite coin and rare items, it should help reduce hoarding.
[/quote]
[quote name='dst' date='16 February 2010 - 05:43 AM' timestamp='1266262983' post='54551']
@Kyphis:you should not set a limit to coins. Coins are gained mainly from MD Shop. And it would not be fair to limit them.
[/quote]
Nuff Said.

(But glad to hear you like the idea, and I agree with the idea of buying additional Raw Item slots in the WP shop)

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@Kyphis: I was referring to this:

[quote]ANYONE with more items than the limit allows for any category looses every item in every category, including coins.[/quote]

But now that I've read it again sounds like you don't have a limit on the coins but you lose them also in case bla bla.
And I like this idea also :D

Edited by dst

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Why are people so obsessed with the Number of items any one player has, rather than the reasons that people have them in the first place? Setting aside the example of a couple notable exceptions atop the item owners list currently, there is no way to quantify RP value of a set of items.

There is a scarcity of raws, but that is largely Metal. Almost noone, and certainly not my char, has metal items that can be used to craft other items, and if I did I would put them back into circulation.

The other significant problem in getting more "raw" items back into circulation (and btw are these really being re-distributed randomly once they are given to Crafters?) is the Item Creation Process itself. Until today, one needed not only WP and often rare raw items, but also Mark of Creation, a much rarer item still. Not only that, but Udgard is the only regularly active Crafter, and he doesn't work in Metal. So in order for most of the items I see people wanting to get crafted, it involves finding WP, Metal items which hardly exist, that people are willing to sell, and also finding Subzeroo or Kragel….

Sinplifying this process could probably help a lot. More players should be able to craft items, and perhaps if there is going to remain such a scarcity of the things people really want, i.e. metal, allow sincere RP in lieu of actual current 'raw' inventory items as input... The scarcity of Metal would really be alleviated if Coins could be used as input to craft other metal items.

I would like to hear what the people who are whinging the most in this thread need in order to get their list of rp items crafted, and what efforts they've made so far to get this done.

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[quote name='Czez' date='15 February 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1266283951' post='54572']
(and btw are these really being re-distributed randomly once they are given to Crafters?)
[/quote]
I believe they go to Udgard's "Material Vault", and are then sold, unless I read wrong (in another thread, or this one...I forget)

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[quote name='Czez' date='16 February 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1266283951' post='54572']
Why are people so obsessed with the Number of items any one player has, rather than the reasons that people have them in the first place? Setting aside the example of a couple notable exceptions atop the item owners list currently, there is no way to quantify RP value of a set of items.
[/quote]

Exactly! You cannot quantify RP value of a set of items. So how can you come and say that you need ALL those items for RP? You contradict yourself.

[quote name='Czez' date='16 February 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1266283951' post='54572']
There is a scarcity of raws, but that is largely Metal. Almost noone, and certainly not my char, has metal items that can be used to craft other items, and if I did I would put them back into circulation.
[/quote]
What about the raws that exist and cannot be used due to people like you who keep them? We all agreed that more types of raws are needed and Udgard already said that at some point (sooner or later) they will probably be provided but we are talking about the current situation. If and when and maybe and bla bla are not the subject.
On a side note: sure you will put them back to circulation...I have no doubt about it :D. And in case you want proof, take a look at your last 3 topics (merged into one cause there was no need for 3):you EXCHANGE one item with another. That makes me think you want to maintain your position on the list "that you voted to be removed".

[quote name='Czez' date='16 February 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1266283951' post='54572']
The other significant problem in getting more "raw" items back into circulation (and btw are these really being re-distributed randomly once they are given to Crafters?) is the Item Creation Process itself. Until today, one needed not only WP and often rare raw items, but also Mark of Creation, a much rarer item still. Not only that, but Udgard is the only regularly active Crafter, and he doesn't work in Metal. So in order for most of the items I see people wanting to get crafted, it involves finding WP, Metal items which hardly exist, that people are willing to sell, and also finding Subzeroo or Kragel….
[/quote]

Udgard is one of the most honest players in MD (or at least this is my impression about him). I highly doubt that he is hoarding items or that he will keep them for himself.
Mark of Creation? :( Do you know at least what that is? And how to obtain it? I bet you don't have the slightest idea.So please! don't talk about something you don't know just so you can see yourself typing.
I do believe that in case someone will want to craft an item out of metal and that person will have everything he/she needs a solution will be found.
You talk about items made of metal. Again, why do you talk about the existing problem (and closer actually): the items that are made out of wood or that require gems?


[quote name='Czez' date='16 February 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1266283951' post='54572']
I would like to hear what the people who are whinging the most in this thread need in order to get their list of rp items crafted, and what efforts they've made so far to get this done.
[/quote]
:D This is called throwing the dead cat :D. One of my favorite tactics actually. So...to end this: what did you respond when players came to you and asked you if you are selling?

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