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Amoran Kalamanira Kol

Hoarding Of Creation Items

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I've noticed recently that there are a couple of members that are hoarding creation items and not even using them. They simply sit on the account of said person like a trophy. Mind you not all items need to be used but...

a few people seem to have oodles and oodles of items that could be handy to use in the item creation process but they are unwilling to sell or use any of them because they are...trophies?

I guess that's the best way to put it. Item hoarding to sit at the top of the 'Item owners' list.

Anything that can be done about this? I'm just curious, I have a couple of items that I'd like to make for some quests that require the use of steel or metal for instance, but almost all of those kind of items are considered to be valuable and are seriously seriously difficult to get ahold of.

A lot of raw materials seem to be hoarded by an inactive player, there could just be more items made but wouldn't that cause a kind of inflation and reduce the value?

Edit: Elaborated a bit. Edited by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

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I totally agree and got very pissed of this...

Dont you have better things to do in your life than keeping hold (or asking RIDICULOUS prices) for items that others could turn into something usefull?

Personally, I think more raw materials could be a good solution...
Or just removing item owners list? since its pretty pointless imo, it just make people wanting to get on the top of it, and beeing egoistic shouldnt be rewarded with a top place in a list :P

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And since we are already here: what about items from players that left months ago like Aqune, Calyx etc.
I don't like items except as trading merchandise but I agree that this is ridiculous.



LE: I love the player called Material Vault ;)). I think I know who's behind it but seriously! Do you really need it? :P

Edited by dst

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i brought this up some time ago. I have been trying to create an item for some time, but people want a drachorn, 30 silver, or one of my REAL ITEMS. They all say the same thing, "Well I need them so I can be at the top of the Item Owners list." This tells me two things.
1. You are really shallow to think that owning raw materials makes you more important.

2. You are so self centered, and care so little about the game, that holding the raw materials means more then selling them for a reasonable price so that people can get items made.

I see often enough the people who can create Items and I haven't seen any new items created in some time. A main reason, besides the raw mats issue, is WPs. While WPs have gone up in distribution, they have gone down considerably in the way they are distributed. People are making quests too difficult. RPCs when they were around often timed kept a good balance. Difficult but something that the general population can handle. Now you see either noone completing the quests, or ROUGHLY the same circle of people winning. This is not ALWAYS the case, but deffinatly for the most part.

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Well, if case 1 is really the case, they just shouldn't count in the total count towards item owners. Primarily because it's raw frigging material.
If you are shallow and you put yourself in a contest against another shallow dude, what are you more likely to count besides trophy wives and the number of hair transplsnts and (nsfw)[spoiler]penile[/spoiler] enlargements?
You don't count the amount of sand you have, nor how many useless concrete blocks you have.
You count the final product; houses, cars and money.

While this in effect could change very little to the prices (oligopoly) it will seriously annoy those dummies and perhaps entice some of them to trade at more realistic prices.
As for 2, well...
Too bad we can't gang up on them and jack stuff :P

But really people, look at my items; I have a pair of magnificent and beautifully adorned crown jewels (pun intended), a carrot (duh), a bunny statue (duh), and a little people statue (if you aren't familiar, read the AL.. way, waaaay back) and the rest is money.
I sold items I didn't need, either for rp, or for creating stuff.


I am serious, if you were hoarding base and raw items like a hobo, and the distinction between rpc and pwr still existed, I wouldn't even have voted you for pwr.
Stop hoarding crap you don't need

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well, we most defently can't force those players to trade, it's their stuf, so they can decide what they do with it.

one more question: Does a raw material dissapear when it has been used for item creation(should be logical), Cause there should be an easier way to obtain materials, what about a material shop or so? and a few secret ways of obtaining them, perhaps a few items that allow you to obtain it(let's say, a pickaxe to obtain ores, a furnace to make bars). it shoulden't be done easily, for me it could even be all player based, tell the item creators what you have done with it, and if it makes sense they exchange it.

but to come back at the essence, there should be more items, making it a bit easier to obtain items, and a bit less easy to 'hoard, and take it out of the circulation.

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Okay...

First of all, I agree, this whole item hoarding thing is hurting the item creation process. Probably more than half of the existing raw materials are held by those who don't ever plan to use it... The irony is that one of the reason to give physical form to the raw materials and produce them in number is to help make the market more fluid, with more items traded. Looks like it just provided more trophies to collect.

Okay, for steel and metal stuff. They were planned to be created around the same time as the first batch of the raw materials. The thing is, there weren't, at that time, anyone (active)capable of crafting item out of metal, role-wise. Without Kragel around (who was the only metal-crafter), they'll just be sitting around doing nothing, so their production was put on hold (if you notice, the material items that are around right now are wood, stones and animal parts - things I can work on). With Kragel back right now and subzeroo on the crafters guild as well, it should be available pretty soon (as soon as I can contact Kragel again, work on the metals will continue).

Removing item owners list, I think is actually quite a good idea.. Although some on the list there barely logs in anymore, which means removing them from the owner list probably won't make the item return to the market.

Items from players that left.. well, I think unique items should be left as is. If it's gone, then it's gone. Though probably we can make a new item with similar name/function if needed, as long as the owner is clearly forever gone. As for raw materials though, I think it might help if we get a list on items that are on players who hasn't logged in for ages, and we might be able to redistribute some new items to compensate for the brought-to-grave ones.

About used raw material, material shops and the Material Vault (yay, someone liked it! =D )..
When used to make something, the item "disappear". They don't disappear physically, but they do RP-ly (is that a word?) Where do they go to? To the Material Vault (well at least, those that requested the item to me). Once enough time an item have been accumulated, they will be redistributed to the players in form of purchasable items and probably quest rewards. For the next batch of items (most probably the metal stuff and the plants/chemical materials), I'll try to set up an item store with them, with hopefully enough item to ensure that there is always a raw material available for purchase.

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I must say, 30 silver isn't that bad a price, there isn't that many raw materials out there, and those of us who are willing to sell it, want to make sure the person we are selling it to actually realy wants it for something (not many are prepared to pay 30 silver just because) and that currently is the easiest way of doing that, and it isn't actually that bad a price, however a drachorn, or a real item are both much to high a price.

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I can think of an option but it would have to be implemented by Mur.

Certain items would have to be classified as "Raw Materials". After each transfer of a raw material item it will have it's age reset and it will age just like creatures age currently. Once it reaches a certain age (perhaps 90 days) it has a negative effect on the character (a percentage drop in AP and Exp Points or a reduction in Attack and Defense). Multiple items will have a cumulative effect so item hording (for raw materials at least) will not be as prevalent. If an item is not traded or used in some way by another date (perhaps 180 days) it will disappear from their inventory. Wood rots, metal rusts and gems can be pick-pocketed. If the items go to a central vault to be randomly distributed among players will keep the items moving around and reduce the costs that players with many items can set because they have created a reduction in the supply of items. If items can't be traded to alts then the system should be fairly stable once the appropriate age and damage have been determined.

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[quote name='Grido' date='21 January 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1264091075' post='53197']
Laphers, too easy to get around, i hold it for 89 days, send it to someone, they send it right back to me, it then has 0 age and i can hold it for another 89 days before doing it again
[/quote]

There should be an easy solution to that:

you are not alloud to have the same item twice, or to have a same item again in 30 days. this way they can't swap it back. but they cannot swap it for the same other item..


but I agree, there are still to many ways to abuse this, by trading for other items or so..

so I think we should take it at the root, not where it finally starts to rott.

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You could just get new raw materials in every month or so, that way the market will flood. Stop pouring in raw materials when items are being made until there's a shortage again (simply use the items used for creation and redistribute them). If there's people hoarding them again (in such quantities it becomes almost impossible to create an item again) go back to the monthly distribution. There might be collectors with insane amounts out there but it's basically useless as they'd still be short WP and item creation tokens and have a heap of materials they can't do anything with.

Light

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I think that the problem really is that the current system is inherantly flawed.
Realistically if you want stone, you go to a mason, not wander about looking for some random person with a stone. If you want leather or hide, you go looking for person that sells that.
That coupled with the fact that item materials are given to people for free and then can be used as a means for profiteering.
Perhaps we could have shops (or designated persons) that can sell raw materials? Maybe even a shop in each land to represent the things found there?
For instance, Loreroot would have a supply of timber and animal hides. Golemus, would have stone and maybe precious stones too. Necrovion could perhaps have sand and bone. MB has an underground, so perhaps precious stones or metals there?
You get the idea.
Anyway, each shop would perhaps regenerate the raw materials over time.
This way items could have set prices and more fairness. The prices could even fluctuate according to supply levels.
Granted it would still be possible for some people to try buying these up, but even then there would be more available and you could even try to limit the number of any one item you could purchase in a month say. Edited by Firsanthalas

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Why not just have Udgard and the other Crafters sell them? That way, nobody gets ripped off (hopefully), and the Crafters can use the money to buy materials from the hoarders(not all of them, of course).

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It could also be a good way to use MD silver and gold as an actually currency, rather than haphazardly used for barter.

(Sorry mods, this should probably just been an amendment to the origianal post, if you'd like to fix that, its cool) Edited by Firsanthalas

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[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='21 January 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1264101125' post='53206']
I think that the problem really is that the current system is inherantly flawed.
Realistically if you want stone, you go to a mason, not wander about looking for some random person with a stone. If you want leather or hide, you go looking for person that sells that.
That coupled with the fact that item materials are given to people for free and then can be used as a means for profiteering.
Perhaps we could have shops (or designated persons) that can sell raw materials? Maybe even a shop in each land to represent the things found there?
For instance, Loreroot would have a supply of timber and animal hides. Golemus, would have stone and maybe precious stones too. Necrovion could perhaps have sand and bone. MB has an underground, so perhaps precious stones or metals there?
You get the idea.
Anyway, each shop would perhaps regenerate the raw materials over time.
This way items could have set prices and more fairness. The prices could even fluctuate according to supply levels.
Granted it would still be possible for some people to try buying these up, but even then there would be more available and you could even try to limit the number of any one item you could purchase in a month say.
[/quote]


yes, something I have been thinking about a while as well
that way every land would have its resources, and perhaps there would be ways to control strategic places of resources, wars would have a purpose... etc.

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Hoarding has always been a problem, even before the md market spread. We discused this long time ago as I recall
I agree on the idea that raw materials/resourses should be more easy to get for any player, it can be realated to locations (wood to lore, metal to GG... just an idea) so people can extract them.

Regards,
K Edited by Kriskah Arcanu

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[quote name='Prince Marvolo' date='22 January 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1264165288' post='53227']
What about adding weight to items? and X weight makes you use more Ap each move?

I personally like the land markets too ^_^
[/quote]


Oooooooo ^_^

That's a brilliant idea! Make it harder to move around when you have (non-coin) items.

Cheers,

Cutler

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Yeah but then what about the people that have items based off of their roles? I don't think that would be fair to them... unless the weight would only apply to raw materials.

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[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='21 January 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1264108794' post='53214']
I tought of that to, but there will have to be places build, new places to sell them from, map editions...

or just a signpost with modifications.., but that I dislike:)
[/quote]


The Defense Quarters in Loreroot has only the Desk to click on for Aramor and weapons. For raw materials, it might be great to have the Chest or cellar to be used as a clickable.

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[quote name='Yoshi' date='22 January 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1264169261' post='53233']
Yeah but then what about the people that have items based off of their roles? I don't think that would be fair to them... unless the weight would only apply to raw materials.
[/quote]

Well, if it's your role to carry a lot of stuff, it's your role to be slow too ..



[quote name='Burns']
and it wouldn't change a thing for the hoarders, they are using alts to store their stuff anyways LOL
[/quote]

Thats considered alt abuse and can be punished, so...

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it's not just alts that do nothing but holding items, but it's also that some people don't even care to move with their item-holders, even when they keep all profits on the holder...
they have enough accounts to not care if one is almost completely unable to do anything because of weight-restrictions, and they just have to wait til a bit of grass grew over the deal, and transfer the things they want on another account then, as part of their normal deals, sell a drachorn for an aramor, there's no rule against that, is there?

don't read me wrong, i'm all against what they do, but i'm yet unable to find any restriction that makes it impossible/veryvery hard to do it without making any material-holding completely impossible, and sometimes people hold to a materila simply because nobody wants it, ever thought of that? Edited by Burns

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