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Muratus del Mur

Wp For Days

Age should be rewarded with WishPoints?  

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1285853288' post='69400']
B and C are not necessarily an argument against A, as it depends upon implementation.
[/quote]
Reasons/purposes are not dependent on implementation and certainly not in a uniform way. CrazyMike gave an example how implementation is more proof if WP/day is not retroactive. The opposite is true: implementation depends on goals.

[quote]
You speak as if alt abuse would be the biggest and most severe problem, right at its implementation. But that doesn't have to be so, not if the implementation is done correctly.
[/quote]
Alt abuse and implementation are a problem regardless of reason. As such they are a slightly more interesting argument. I assume the worst for implementations, you assume the best. Obviously reality will be somewhere between those. No system is perfect.


Finally, I'll restate this opinion: if retroactive WP/day have to be done, I think it will sell better towards new players if they also get something. Instead of new players wondering what the hell wishpoints are and being told they have to quest hard or wait 300+ days to find out, they'll get one quite soon. Veterans will win one more WP this way, but I doubt many of them will complain about such a suggestion.
I like the suggestion of a new permanent WP dispensing puzzle too. Obviously the solution will be shared, but at least we'll have the opportunity to have fun trying it.

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That is true, reality will probably be somewhere in between, especially if you look at the average record of man's stupidity and wilfulness to grow exponentially in power at every cost.

But what if newbies get something else, instead of wp? A scaling ladder of loyalty rewards?
Newbies get... long time ago since I had to think in terms of mp3 and mp4, I dunno, a free item they can buy at whatever shop they can get into? Like if they can enter Loreroot, they can pick a free piece of medusa armor, with the added requirement of having at least 50 activity days.
Sounds doable, and it promotes the intended goals to some degree and it's not exactly harmful if it does get abused.

Whereas a wp would be somewhere way up high, with 500+ age, and perhaps linked to some sort of achievement as well?

Of course, I am only saying this because I am slightly more pessimistic towards wp inflation, especially when it's requirements are lowered enough that it doesn't really warrant an actual wp.

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What use is a WP to a person that just logs in to gain active days anyways? (now if that "person" is an alt that is a different story..)

but a WP to active days just seems like a nice idea. not much thinking has to been done about it besides how often the WP would be given out-if at all :PP. sorry if my opinion is too lax about it.

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[quote name='Grim Angel' timestamp='1259949068' post='49106']
I like it :wub:

Will we be rewarded for the days we have now or from when it‘s implemented?
[/quote]
it should be retroactive, otherwise, it'd be unfair to those who has stayed with MD the longest
so because they had the unfortunate fate of getting into MD before this is implemented, they won't have this reward
which, for all intents and purposes, is meant to reward loyalty?

if that's the case, then that will just encourage more alts...

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When it is all said and , at the end of the day, it will be Mur who decides what is best for md, not myself or yourself..we can talk as much as we like, but it's Murs game after all.

Regarding wish points, i entered several quests, and either didn't know what had happened in the past, or could not access a certain part of md because i had not found the way to get there,or the clickables stopped working, or when the astral plane was stopped for abuse use...... to me a wp is like the moon, something unattainable.now i dont worry about them.
In regards to vets complaining about abuses of the system, how did the abuse start..people stat ground in the past, and now people whinge about it, but they dont mind if their maxed drach's and angiens make flattened footprints out of new mp5 players in regards to size and exp, when they attack them.
I'm researching actually making a medallion out or real metals, but will it earn me a wish point?Nope, but it might earn me something more valuable..
In regards to alts i would like to say, unless you have had someone guide you,you could end up with a useless character in regards to stats.so you start again, see what else the story does in regards to stats..i could drop goldfinger as my main character here if an alt i'm bringing through is better than this character,so does my new charcater become my main a/c and goldfinger my alt?
So I will abstain from voting...*laughs* and I'm sure i will annoy someone with this ..post

Basically , stop wingeing annd let Mur decide..

P.S.(I'm talking about a real medal with gold highlights,that people can actually buy)

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[quote name='goldfinger earthicus' timestamp='1285992770' post='69494']
Basically , stop wingeing annd let Mur decide
[/quote]

"Let me know what you think about having a type of achievement that will give you a wishpoint for active days, without any other requirement."
-Mur

It pays to read the first post. If Mur wanted to just decide, he wouldn't have opened this topic in the first place.

Awi Edited by awiiya

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1285936122' post='69455']
Of course, I am only saying this because I am slightly more pessimistic towards wp inflation, especially when it's requirements are lowered enough that it doesn't really warrant an actual wp.
[/quote]
Sorites' paradox again...

[quote name='adiomino' timestamp='1285980164' post='69486']
What use is a WP to a person that just logs in to gain active days anyways? (now if that "person" is an alt that is a different story..)
[/quote]
what use is logging in just to get active days? Unless you plan to return to actively playing on that account or alt abuse. In both cases WPs are interesting.
[quote]
but a WP to active days just seems like a nice idea. not much thinking has to been done about it besides how often the WP would be given out-if at all :PP. sorry if my opinion is too lax about it.
[/quote]
That's insulting. There's several things being discussed at the same time: yes/no, how many/frequent, what about alts, what about alt abuse, what are the consequences towards WP value, the pr impact on new players... Next time, read the entire topic.

[quote name='Harion' timestamp='1285988266' post='69490']
it should be retroactive, otherwise, it'd be unfair to those who has stayed with MD the longest
so because they had the unfortunate fate of getting into MD before this is implemented, they won't have this reward
which, for all intents and purposes, is meant to reward loyalty?

if that's the case, then that will just encourage more alts...
[/quote]
I'll try to understand your message first:
1. "It should be retroactive, otherwise it is unfair towards veterans who will not be able to get this reward."
Unless they leave, they will get the rewards at the same time a person who starts playing the day of the implementation, gets them. eg. If the policy is adapted 01/01/2011, at 1wp/year, a 3y vet will be a 6y vet at 01/01/2014 and have 3 free WPs. A person who registers on 01/01/2011, will also have 3 free WPs in 2014. The only way for a 3y vet to have less free WPs is if they quite before 2014. A 3y vet who 'sleeps' between 01/01/2011 and 01/01/2014 will have no free WPs. This could easily be rectified by Mur, granted that we care about this problem at all. How often would it happen anyway?
2. "this reward which, for all intents and purposes, is meant to reward loyalty."
No, not for all intents and purposes. Read the quote below carefully and see how the intents and purposes are not limited to loyalty, but are mixed with PR and other stuff (by lack of a better word.)

[i]"placing a wp at the start of the time frame is important. A new player will not be impressed by the idea that he will get somehting after ONE YEAR of playing, ...they are not sure if they will stay one day at first.
[...]
I hope that in this way people will want more, and not consider wp as unreachable anyway. There are many that have none and stoped hoping for one."[/i]
-Mur

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Sorite's paradox? With what? In the measurement of the worth of the requirements of a wp? I give you, I admit, completely subjective, yet potentially objective measurement of requirement of one wp; the WP mechanism installed by Mur in the gazebo, with the patterns in the floor.

But that aside, my sentence was a bit off anyway :excl:.

I simply meant that, with some of the instances where I have seen, relatively, far too easy quests which rewarded wp, I did not want the 'wp for active days' 'quest', to be so relatively easy, but instead comparable to the broken pattern puzzle.

But, yes, it's quite the difficult task to judge loyalty, in the form of active days, and its relative worth in relation to a wp, on a large scale.

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It would be intresting to see the stats catagorized into

Gained no wishpoints
Gained a couple of wishpoints
Gained a lot of wishpoints

Because im betting the people who have gained little or no wishpoints are wanting as many as possible.

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I, personally, would do something like this: I would award 1WP/year BUT I would not make this automated. Remember how we got our veterans' medal? I would do the same: for 1 week (or <insert time period here>) I would award 1 WP for age if that player would be there and the others would have nothing against the WP giving. And I would do this every year. If you are there good. If not...that's your problem.

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One problem seems to be that 1 per year is too much in the long run, but not enough to keep on newbies. So, put a shorter interval that lengthens over time. There are lots of options for this.


How about assigning the number of active days for the next WP according to the Fibonacci series? Like 30 * (+1, +1, +2, +3, +5, +8, +13, +21, etc.)
30, 60, 120, 210, 360, 600, 990, 1620, etc.


Or a geometric progression. 30 * 3^x
30, 90, 270, 810, 2430, etc

Or, something else.
30 * x^2: 30, 120, 270, 480, 750, 1080, 1470, ...
10 * x^3: 10, 80, 270, 640, 1250, ...
30 * x! : 30, 60, 180, 720, 3600, ...


If 666 is a nice age for a WP (it's a point that is noticed quite a lot, so it makes sense), then several possibilities include:

8 x^4 + 2 x^2 : 10, 136, [b]666[/b], 2080, ...
24 x^3 + 2 x^2: 26, 200, [b]666[/b], 1568, ...
37x^2 *(x+1)/2: 37, 222, [b]666[/b], 1480, ...
for a 3rd WP

10 x^3 +x^2+2x+2: 15, 90, 287, [b]666[/b], 1287, ...
10 x^3 + 2x + 18: 30, 102, 294, [b]666[/b], 1278, ...
for a 4th WP Edited by apophys

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1286067214' post='69536']
Sorite's paradox? With what? In the measurement of the worth of the requirements of a wp? I give you, I admit, completely subjective, yet potentially objective measurement of requirement of one wp; the WP mechanism installed by Mur in the gazebo, with the patterns in the floor.
[/quote]
Quite simple: 1 AD is not worth of a WP. 499 AD is not worthy. In binary logic 499 + 1 = 500 AD is not worthy either. Any cut-off point is completely arbitrary.
How exactly this translates into the BPG, I do not understand. BPG is ambiguous already. There probably are quite old players who have not solved it yet, while there also exist rumors of the solution being passed around.


[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1286100831' post='69550']
It would be intresting to see the stats catagorized into

Gained no wishpoints
Gained a couple of wishpoints
Gained a lot of wishpoints
[/quote]
I have 8, I suppose that counts as 'a lot'. You should however also take into account that I spend my time on questing and quest creating. Any 'free' WPs are, imo, a mockery of both activities. In absolute terms, I would not loose much ranking under any but the most extreme frequencies, while I kinda 'need' one more WP for my current purposes. To maximize my gains, I should vote for a one time free WP, alts rewarded as well, preferably at a medium age requirement. In case of doubt, this is not what I am voting for. Granted, 'none' is more interesting for me than for people who don't design/solve quests.


@dst: you should consider moving to Belgium, we're very good at making things more complicated without being more efficient. I remember the medal award and the voting and it was very chaotic. Every time someone got a Pyrrhic victory/loss in the vote count, previously awarded/unawarded players had to be reconsidered. There was little consensus on what active means etc etc.

@apophys: that's been mentioned before (eg. on p5), without the emphasis on 666 though.

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Ah right, wasn't thinking straight. Yes, with the AD it does indeed become sorite's paradox. But, unlike a heap, mur could superimpose an actual definition and worth of a wp, much like he did with the BP puzzle. AD's could then become worthy to a fraction of a wp, with added elements such as Dst's idea, of actually being there (I like that idea), much like the BP puzzle has several elements as well. So in that sense it isn't really like sorite's paradox, because we do have a higher authority that can define the worth of an AD and of a WP.

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[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1286122973' post='69572']
Ah right, wasn't thinking straight. Yes, with the AD it does indeed become sorite's paradox. But, unlike a heap, mur could superimpose an actual definition and worth of a wp, much like he did with the BP puzzle. AD's could then become worthy to a fraction of a wp, with added elements such as Dst's idea, of actually being there (I like that idea), much like the BP puzzle has several elements as well. So in that sense it isn't really like sorite's paradox, because we do have a higher authority that can define the worth of an AD and of a WP.
[/quote]
Except that said higher authority has asked us to debate about it and we are still bound to the paradox. afaik the only way out of Sorite's is fuzzy logic, but most people wouldn't like the consequences of that. (Personally I think they're hilarious when applied to this problem. Imagine every player having a (pseudo)random age requirement for their next 'free' WP.)

Again, I don't understand your BP analogy. Multiple elements? The different starting tiles change nothing to the workings of the puzzle.

The being there on one specific day is not a good implementation for goal a. An entire year of 'loyal activity' can be denied by one day of illness or other real life issues.

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How about that first free wp comes a certain number of active days AFTER beoming MP5. We need an incentive for those with stunted "growth" to move up.

I've earned 3 and caused another 5 to be awarded. But I'm a firm believer that "Magic"Duel needs more magic! And MD needs more players moving to MP5. I wouldn't even whine (much) if only the newest mp5's got that first free wp.......

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[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1286148348' post='69589']
But I'm a firm believer that "Magic"Duel needs more magic![/quote]
I hope, for your sake, that this is meant to be ironic.

[quote]
And MD needs more players moving to MP5. I wouldn't even whine (much) if only the newest mp5's got that first free wp.......
[/quote]
No it doesnt. It needs more players in general and more players who advance to mp5 when they are ready for it. When you're giving free sparkly stuff when moving to mp5, all you promote is players arriving at mp5 without even enough age to have maxed an elemental. Whenever the lack of mp5s is mentioned, people forget to consider the mp5 out-flux and keep focusing on the influx and the 'stunted growth' and 'overpowered mp4s and mp3s'.

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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1259948740' post='49105']
1/365 should be enough. More will definitely lead to abuses.
And no alts.
[/quote]


as much as it pains me to do so.... I agree :rolleyes:

for what its worth that is

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Hy to all. I voted for 1 WP per year and i tink it is the best option because a year is a pretty long period that a player spends with Magic Duel, and even for a few minutes each day; most important thing is that he remembers every day and he makes time to login on this game. 1 WP will not greatly affect the fluency of the game, on the contrary, will give some players a chance to lower their experience to 0, or anything else they want...

Otherwise, suggest to choose just one character, not necessarily the main (each player can made a choise on what character will receive this WP/ear) and i say this because we can improve attention toward a single character...
(i say this because this is my main account(19821) and certainly i will not choose it for that even though i have several characters that have almost 300 days played with each one and to encourage what i'll tell you below i'll choose a character that have less than a month regardless of the choice will be made)

But it would be very nice if this feature would be implemented for all players equally, means the monitoring of the activity of players to start in the day when this option is available(like land activity) and so will not make the difference between new and veteran players (last enumerated they had the chance to obtain these WP on other ways; they can still get these WP's because they have enough experience in this game and anyway they get medals for what they did until now; get the equal chance to each player).

what i say here i think i'm done with that, but 1 more thing: would be very nice if the option that will return the caracter back to mp3 should be available again ^_^

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If free WPs ever get implemented, I suggest limiting item creation to require at least 1 or 2 spent WPs, to prevent over-demand of items. One extra WP per person would totally flood the game with items if everyone uses theirs to make an item.

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[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1286506407' post='69898']
if everyone uses theirs to make an item.
[/quote]

This is doubtful if alts don't get WPs, and they shouldn't. Edited by apophys

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