[asryn]

dst, on 10 November 2009 - 01:54 PM, said:

Drats! I wrote half an hour a loong and calm post. Then I erased it.

So:MD is a hard game. Yes, it requires patience. Yes, it has filters. Yes, it is an elitist game. Yes, it has players like me who yell and shout at every player (no, I don't shout only at new players: I shout at everybody who gives me a reason). But it gives you something you'll never ever find in another game:freedom! You are allowed to do whatever crosses your mind. The limit is indeed your imagination. Are all those (patience, filters, elitism) a high price to pay? No. I say a big NO!.
There are lots of wrongs in MD but there are also many more great things to compensate.
MD is not the game where you have specific goals to attain. You have them but they are few and after probably 3 months you can reach them all. MD is about creating your own goals. If you don't do that you'll get bored and leave.
MD has no walthroughs, no help pages, almost no hints. It's the best like this. Why? Cause of the above statement. Imagine this: you register, go through the tutorial and then you are given all the information you need (game mechanics, crits levels, etc, etc). You will be bored to death in a week. You'll not have time to make friends, you'll not have time to integrate yourself.
Also, if you get discouraged by a member who yells at you (aka me) then you're not too <insert the word I want to but fail to remember>, are you? Let me tell you a story: I was a noob. Back then Wodin was the star. He was arrogant and full of himself. I used to love stepping on his toes! I wanted to be better then him. I wanted to make him cry :D. So, instead of running away cause big bad Wodin stole my toy I defied him. I started to learn, train and in the end I defeated him. I don't quit cause of players! If you do then you show weakness. You need a backbone to survive in MD. I told you something mean? Be brave enough and reply. I might hate you for that but at least you may earn my respect. Again, MD is full of hypocrites. So I prefer a honest swear then a nice a**-kissing.

Bah...I am bore to write those things again and again and again...



One last thing: BURNS!!! I am not OLD! *undresses the troll costume and throws it after Burns*

I don't think anyone is suggesting that MD should have everything laid out in a walkthrough, or that we should all be forced to play the same way. Exactly where the balance lies between giving newbies too much info and not enough is tricky and obviously something we are still discussing.

But in a sense, I feel like you are making my point here. If the criteria for a new player to be successful in MD is someone who is extremely patient even when they have no way of knowing why the game is worth being patient for, who can create their own directions and goals with no guidance whatsoever, who doesn't mind being yelled at occasionally when they try to do so, and who finds being continually beat up by stronger players to be more challenging than frustrating - then that describes a fairly small group of people, and and we shouldn't be surprised that we aren't recruiting and keeping more of them. So, we can either accept that numbers will stay low and decide that's a reasonable trade-off to have only players who meet all of those criteria, or we can consider whether there are ways to support new players a bit more without sacrificing too much of what makes MD special.

[Nahblard]

Yeah, I'm not saying you're wrong here, just that elitism has it's drawbacks. If you want more new players and new ones who stay, you have to accept that there are big downsides to it. You have a vision and if it's an elite and difficult to get into game that rewards people (and challenge in itself is an incentive enough for some people) then you have to accept the low retention rates that come with. Most of my points are "this is why" not so much "this is bad". Just bear in mind you cannot have it both ways.

And DST, I'm hard to anger and on confrontational, so it takes a lot more to actually rattle me. That's not an invitation, I like my calm and I don't want to go round making enemies. Don't forget you're a powerful player, bughunter and forum moderator, it means that trolling for you is basically from a position that most people would not dare attack. And to be really honest, trolling people is easy enough as is. EVERYONE is easy enough to troll once you find a weak spot or just brute force it. Honesty is a good thing, but it's possible to be honest, disagree, and stay on good terms.

Also that not everyone will ever catch you up and beat you. Some people haven't got it in them, or the time to do so even if they do. Or would take so long, well I imagine should I decide that hate for a player of your position was my only reason to log, that the time would be better spent elsewhere. You need a more attackable troll, one a new player can realistically aspire to hit, if you want to motivate newbies to stick at it.

This post has been edited by Nahblard: 11 November 2009 - 02:15 AM

[dst]

Nahblard: I am not the one who set the standards for MD.The way to play the game kept certain types of players while the others got bored or frustrated and left.
I do like the current status.
And I will tell you another story:
Few months ago someone showed me another online game. It looked nice. I started to play. It was a good game. But it had a major flaw: the players. It was almost impossible to talk to most of them. They were rude. They lacked the basic common sense. The game was playable without too much player vs player interaction but it was no fun from this point of view. Even now I still want to play it but every time I start it I exit quickly cause of the bad karma :D it has.

The conclusion? I prefer such an elitist medium to a mediocre one. You have the chance to improve yourself by talking to smart people. If you want just a hack and slash game or a click to advance the Internet is full of them. I always say: there is at least one option: to go away. It's each one's decision.

You say I am a powerful player/bughunter/forum mod. You're wrong. I am just a player.I was punished just like everyone else when I did wrong things. And I was awarded when I did good things. For me doesn't matter if you are Loreroot INC's CEO. If I have something to say to you, the titles will not stop me.

That is the problem with MD: you all see something players as gods. They are not. They are just normal players. Some of them got to that position simply by buying their way up. I will not go into details because they are not significant. So, stand up for yourself. What do you have to lose? It's a game after all. You can always come back with a different character.

Honesty...hmm...why do you think I am the bad guy (well...girl) in MD? Not only for certain things that I did but because I don't hide my feelings. I will tell you if I hate you or like you. The bad part is that I like few people (yes...that's one of my flaws) so I don't have friends in MD (ok...i think I exaggerated a bit...maybe I have 2 or 3). There are 2 kinds of players: the ones that need me so they act like my friends (no worries, I know who you are and if I played along doesn't mean I am stupid) or the ones that fear/hate me so bad that they stay away.


@Daemon: You have the LHOs to guide you. THEY are the books you need to read. The only problem is they are "special books". You need to ask the right question in order to get the info you want. See, there's a trick to this also. It forces you to interact. It forces you to think before asking stupid questions. It forces you to think when you receive an answer that is not always blunt and straight forward.

Quote

A well written guide does not tell people what to do but helps present options and correlations between ideas so others may better be able to understand and take free action themselves. I also disagree that guides would make people bored and thus hinder them from interacting and making friends. People choose to not interact and make friends. It's not hard for them to stand around and talk and make the effort.

A guide is a guide. Otherwise you can call it riddles book. You have to understand that it's not the game's goal to make you take the best decision. It's simply about decisions. It forces you to evaluate all your current knowledge and decide.
For example:
What will you do if a girl asks you to play a game? You have to take that decision based on the info you have up till that point.
If you would knew from the beginning that by taking a certain decision you'll end up dead in Necrovion would you still take it? When you also know that taking the other will open the Drachorn Layer?
And another example:
Would you recruit let's say...creature X if you would know it is worthless at a higher level?
Would you not recruit 10 creatures Y if you would know they are amazing at level 3?
Would you level creature z knowing that at the next level it sucks?
If those guides would exit then the multiple story choices would be useless. Don't tell me that you would not choose the paths that will open Necro and certain parts of Marind Bell if you would know which decisions to take at what time. This is one of the main reasons alts are allowed. You have the option (see? another one :P) to replay the story as many times as you want BECAUSE this is one of the ways to find out what the best choice is.
You already have in the news box some hints. If you take the time and read them you'll learn a lot. Then you have the announcements.98% of the players don't read the announcements. You have no idea what a source of info the announcements are. But few bother to read them (basically cause they are so many and some of them are not that important or they are not important for everybody).
Let me resume: you have the hints in the news box, you have the announcements, you have the LHOs, you have the battle logs, you have the adventure log and you have also the forum. As for the forum: if you know where to look you'll be amazed on how many things you'll find there. But again...few read it and few even bother to use the simple function called SEARCH. There are even some small FAQs put in place by old players. I agree: part of the info in there is outdated but the basic is still there.
Do you really need more guidelines? If so then...maybe MD is not the place for you.
Oh and one last thing: you can always ask anyone. The worst thing that can happen is that the person to whom you send the PM will just ignore you. But don't ask for an official guide. I doubt we'll ever have one.

Damn...this is a long post so I will stop...for now.

[Daemon Torvez]

DST,

I agree with you that we have the LHOs to guide players and that they are books or should be. They can even be “special” as you say and ride short buses if they want. ;). Seriously though, yes I like the uniqueness of having them, I like that they have a presence in the game and if they are active and willing to deal with the boredom of hanging out and waiting to be needed, they are a great asset to the game and set it apart from many other games. I disagree that it forces people to be blunt and straight forward but agree that their presence does encourage interaction on the scale that is missing in other games. But still a written guide would help.

I know MD does not have the goal of leading people to the best decision, “best” being speculative of course but I feel I know what you meant. I would never want the guide to “tell” people what to do but merely present a better presentation for the game to help them realize what all they can do. Gamers are not use to this type of game and that could be one of the key issues about player retention and why so why gamers join up or stay long. MD is a lot like Myst when it came out. Gamers did not know how to take it, how to approach it and could not even tell it was a game. Once more reviews came out about it and people wrote about it then players had something more to guide them to the game and get them interested in it. Which is what a guide for MD could do.

A guide for MD would not just help gamers with the game but it’s something that can be seen outside the game. People can’t see an LHO and talk to them outside of MD to see if they like or would be interested in the game. The web site for MD is not very well laid out for functioning as a guide or to build more interest and the forums are to cluttered and Mur’s discussions are too cryptic to spark that first clear understanding of what a person would be getting into if they chose to join and play the game. A printed guide goes far beyond the realm of MD in attracting players. It reaches people in a way LHOs can’t. Not to mention it is industry standard for games to clearly define themselves to attract gamers, most doing so through some sort of guide. Like Myst, Magic Dual is filled with puzzles or challenges for its players to discover and try to understand. I laugh now when I hear players say that MD does not have magic right off the bat for players, it does (sadly I use to make that argument too). But this is my point, players do not clearly understand fundamental thing from the start. MD is not made clear enough and that is a fault of the game design and or presentation. I had to read through years worth of old forum posts to find a lot of my answers to things. If that is what Mur wants, ok, he succeeded. But I know there is some degree of a communication barrier in his ability to describe his game world along with a few other things I feel are for to fault to game design rather than designed game mechanics (like his challenge in naming the presses and labeling players interaction with them i.e. Sacrificing).

MD is a great game and that is not just me blowing sunshine. MD has that home town, home grown, very personal touch feel to it. I liken it to a personal gaming group and their table top game in someone’s home where players played their favorite RPG together. But all that with the convenience of being a browser based game and the added element of it being like an MMO with hundreds of players. The game is awesome and stands almost alone on the internet, from its concept, design and execution. But even that message is not clearly communicated to potential players so they miss out and in turn so does the game. MD could probably have a ton more gamers that would fit into its style and theme perfectly and love it and add to it, if the game was better presented, and more clearly marketed. This is best done with a guide book for example that can reach outside the games boarders which the LHOs are technically trapped in.

I agree with you, I would not want any spoilers in the guide and I hate books that have cheat codes to games as they ruin them. MD is unique and special because the way Mur designed its style and theme I would not want that ruined. But I’m sure MD does not even reach the volume of players it could have because it does not present itself well. It’s nice that the forums, news and other locations hold hints to the game, its history etc. but it’d be best if all of that was only in the game. But that is another discussion. I agree though that this information and how players have to puzzle through it does make MD unique and fun to play.

And I read all the announcements. :)

I guess even a small guide of sorts to address some of the more confusing elements of the game that could be attributed to game design issues would help. For example: The idea of what creatures are and how Mur intended them to be should be clear from the start but it’s not. MD’s magic concept and how and when players would get more access to it should be more clear. How players should design their characters and even pick a name should be discussed before they log in and create them but it’s not. Giving players a better understanding of how MD’s role playing could/does work would be very beneficial in multiple ways for potential gamers. All this could/should be in a guide and better presented to players even before they log in and create an account.

Your right, a lot of this information is already out there but is it presented to potential players in the best possible manner? Are we settling for 80% quality right now or can things be upgraded a bit to give us 90% quality or more?

[Grido]

i'm working on a comprehensive FAQ atm, there's a post asking for other suggested questions to answer, or comments on the current ones, it's in the Q&A section.

I....think i could do a "Starting MD for Dummies" (you know, the book series) type thing, i could certainly do it up till past Story Mode, but after that it would be very concise, more like "look around for quests, learn what the creatures do, and become teh awesome" > but, you know, better.
Not sure where it would go though, main site page, possibly, but kinda goes away from the theme of the game. Sure, i can probably make it, but is it wanted and in line with the game?

[I am Bored]

not every bored person leaves! i am a living example of that!

[Nahblard]

dst, on 12 November 2009 - 06:18 AM, said:

That is the problem with MD: you all see something players as gods. They are not. They are just normal players. Some of them got to that position simply by buying their way up. I will not go into details because they are not significant. So, stand up for yourself. What do you have to lose? It's a game after all. You can always come back with a different character.

You say what you think and do what you want, you talk like you have no trust of people. Most people consider that "bad". So yes, by those superficial standards, then yes, you ARE bad*. I'm talking purely from the point of view of well... what I see. Bear in mind I'm not inclined to make snap decisions, and I'm aware there's more than meets the eye both in the game and structure.

I'm not trying to push what I'm saying in terms of absolutes just in terms of how it *appears* from where I'm sat. I'm also lucky enough to be the sort of person who investigates, probes and looks around. But a lot of people aren't. I will stand by my point, Mur wondered why he can't retain new players and there it is.

You are not wrong about much, but that doesn't change that Mur said he wondered where new players went and the game is quite difficult and hostile to retaining new members. There is the cause. The question is not of whether I am right, or you are right, but whether Mur decides that his vision is important, people can like it or leave, or that he wants to reach more people and is willing to alter it a bit. I don't wish to push either alternative as the way to go, as the problem or the solution, just that here lies the choice and the crux of the issue. You obviously feel that an elite group makes a better game, I'm not saying your wrong, just that an elite group means fewer new players.