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Burns

Combat, Balance And Activity...

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During the last months, MD overall activity has dropped, specially on MP5, where skill-damage makes people stop fighting...
Unlike back then in the jolly old times, when Willow's and lateron GoE were crowded, happy places, these days you are lucky to find ANY player in an area where combat is allowed... but enough of the past, here are some ideas on how to change that again:

First of all, without which all the following does hardly make sense, the

[b]
[size="5"][u]Balance Issue[/u][/b]
[/size]

As of yet, being balanced is a gimmick, therefore people hardly care to be in balance, this would change greatly if the things i'm about to propose get changed.
Therefore, as base of all the other crap, Balance needs to be extended.

Imo, it doesn't make sense to limit balance to +/- 20 fights once people have 500 and more swords and sheaths, therefore i think of a %-based balance...
My suggestion would be leaving the balance as it is until people reach either (!) 250 losses or wins, and from there onwards calculating balance differently, namely by adding up swords and sheaths and dividing by two to find the perfect balance-value, then take 10% of perfect balance and add/substract it from perfect balance.
If you are in those +/-10% range, you count as generally balanced, the extra rewards from balance increase with how close you are to perfection (+/-.5% = 95% balaned profile extra reward, +/-1% = 90% extra reward...)

ok, that much to balance...


[b]
[size="5"][u]Combat Rewards[/u][/b]
[/size]

Now, why should people stay in balance now if they didn't bother before? Easy: when you are not in balance, you get nothing for winning! That is to say, no wins and xp for crits, no stats for your char, no honor, no loyalty... nothing 'cept for swords and sheaths!

On the other hand, as soon as you are in balance, and even if you just scratch it, you get all the things just like you do now, plus a (small) extra stat-bonus which increases as you close in on balance!

Oh, now that sounds fun... veterans go to perfect balance and grab endless wins, getting stronger and giving us newbies no opportunity of winning EVER, right?

NO!

[b]
[size="5"][u]Swords and Sheaths[/u][/b]
[/size]

We all know the current issues about swords and sheats and how they force weaker players to inactivity, while older players bash anything they can get a hold off 0-100...
I want to change that!

As long as you are out of balance, all rules apply just as they do now, with one exception: fights that end in round 0 are NOT counted as loss while you are unbalanced!
as long as you are in balance, ANY win counts for a victory, but sheat-rules stay as they are, forcing fighters to lose as well as win if they want to stay in balance and get something for fighting at all (don't forget, fighting out of balance gives you nothing, not even wins for saccing)



You might say 'Oh wonder, a fighter who wants his victims back' and you would be right, but there's more to it than that:

-Combat is what keeps people [u]active[/u], they don't stick around to wait for a new quest to start or because someone might drop by to RP with them, Battle is what makes you log on, search people, and start actions that might even have impact in RP
-Combat is what brings [u]money[/u] to the server, nobody buys tokens and rusts because they look fancy, but because they want to beat someone up with them!!

Can MD live without those to things? for some time yes, but not forever...

I want everybody with any ideas, questions, flames, real critics, or random comments to post, and at latest when all details are dealt with, i'll bug Mur until he reads it, too... (i really hope i don't have to do that XD)
me wants activity, and Jester's war plans are not the right way!

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Just about everyone and there mother is in an alliance Burns. If you really want this to work you would need to get rid of perma balance, or vets would not have to lose a battle to maintain balance.

Personally I say screw the heck out of honor. Completely get rid of honor. When you attack someone you get wins, exp and loyalty I suppose. (Though the loyalty system is screwy too.) People walking around who give you more than -100 honor are normally WAY stronger than you. Honor is supposed to be a reward from beating stronger opponents, so why is it that someone like Lifeline should be getting hundreds of bonus exp and 400 honor off of me? The honor system doesn't do what it's supposed to, trash it. Then who cares, fight whenever, everybody fight everybody. No stat damage, no hiding, no worries about win/loss (unless you want to be balanced, which you would). Really, deleting a broken system brings everybody back, and it shouldn't take THAT much coding to do.

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[quote name='Jester' date='16 September 2009 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1253100788' post='41894']
Your idea would take a lot of coding and switching the game around, whereas my idea just involves me declaring war on you annoying pacifists.
[/quote]

actually it would only take a couple of tweaks, just some more validation about working out the outcomes of the fight, Relatively little in comparision to a new feature or adding a creature.

I like the idea, we need to keep players in and any way that can be done and something like this that will help the battle system i like it, even if it isnt the most polished ideas yet

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[quote name='Burns' date='16 September 2009 - 06:51 AM' timestamp='1253098296' post='41890']
-Combat is what keeps people [u]active[/u], they don't stick around to wait for a new quest to start or because someone might drop by to RP with them, Battle is what makes you log on, search people, and start actions that might even have impact in RP
[/quote]

I'd have to disagree with you on this point(and ONLY this point). I have always enjoyed doing quests more than fighting on every game I've played that involved quests. I WOULD actually wait for a quest to start or to role-play because I enjoy those things more than battling. But I very well might be one of the only ones that think like that. [img]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]

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i was lucky today :) for 90% of the mp5 was in alliance and since i also was in alliance i didnt lose honor.. but if there were too many non alliance members i cant train because all the guys are having hell of alot of losses and am trying to balance so all of them give me big negative honor.. and its putting a big break in my training.. even in mp3 this was the problem i faced.. since i was looking for won fights but every1 was going for loss fights.. so i reached -500 honor fast and had big trouble getting back up...

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Personally, I wouldn't fight too much at all if I couldn't get anything when unbalanced...I'm pretty easy to beat up, and since everyone's stat farming while I'm out sitting in the Cabin, or with a friend or something, they all get better than me quite quick. I'm sure Guybrush could easily beat me, for example. So what I think would happen is that I'd fall out of balance (like I am now xD), and I'd have to farm wins off of some nice people who'd set trees for me until I was balanced again...I'm not too much of a fighter, but I still like to go out every once in a while.

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it won't change too much straigth away, but if people get vics everytime they win, they get thrown off balance after some time and will need to lose, while now i can just set rits that kill and never get a vic from it...
after some time, the players would need to lose on purpose to keep balance, and then (i hope) players like you, Pip, come out of their sanctuaries and fetch victories from them, get into balance again, raise critters again...

right now, you and other weak players like you completely depend on the generousity of older players if you want to raise any crits at all, but if they actually needed some losses, we'd have a win-win situation and (hopefully) more cooperation

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[quote name='Burns' date='16 September 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1253098296' post='41890']

[size="5"][u]Swords and Sheaths[/u][/b]
[/size]

We all know the current issues about swords and sheats and how they force weaker players to inactivity, while older players bash anything they can get a hold off 0-100...
I want to change that!

As long as you are out of balance, all rules apply just as they do now, with one exception: fights that end in round 0 are NOT counted as loss while you are unbalanced!
as long as you are in balance, [color="#FF0000"]ANY win counts for a victory, [/color]but sheat-rules stay as they are, forcing fighters to lose as well as win if they want to stay in balance and get something for fighting at all (don't forget, fighting out of balance gives you nothing, not even wins for saccing)



You might say 'Oh wonder, a fighter who wants his victims back' and you would be right, but there's more to it than that:

-Combat is what keeps people [u]active[/u], they don't stick around to wait for a new quest to start or because someone might drop by to RP with them, Battle is what makes you log on, search people, and start actions that might even have impact in RP
-Combat is what brings [u]money[/u] to the server, nobody buys tokens and rusts because they look fancy, but because they want to beat someone up with them!!

[/quote]
The only thing that I don't like is : [color="#FF0000"]ANY wins gives you a victory[/color].
Why ? Because it will unbalance the players in the other way :) more wins then loses.

The only good thing about "Any win = vic" will be that players will learn to make good "self losing rituals" (that means more knowledge on MD mechanics).
Consider that one good players wants to get balanced (from too many wins), what will he do ? I tell you : he will start GIVING wins.
So ... the current system for fighting is pretty good. If you want a victory ... it is easy to be taken.


[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' date='16 September 2009 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1253111771' post='41905']
Just about everyone and there mother is in an alliance Burns. If you really want this to work you would need to get rid of perma balance, or vets would not have to lose a battle to maintain balance.

Personally I say screw the heck out of honor. Completely get rid of honor. When you attack someone you get wins, exp and loyalty I suppose. (Though the loyalty system is screwy too.) People walking around who give you more than -100 honor are normally WAY stronger than you. Honor is supposed to be a reward from beating stronger opponents, so why is it that someone like Lifeline should be getting hundreds of bonus exp and 400 honor off of me? The honor system doesn't do what it's supposed to, trash it. Then who cares, fight whenever, everybody fight everybody. No stat damage, no hiding, no worries about win/loss (unless you want to be balanced, which you would). Really, deleting a broken system brings everybody back, and it shouldn't take THAT much coding to do.
[/quote]
"Screw the honor "? WHY ?
You all loved the new "achievements". Consider the honor as an "achievement" and / or a quest.
The real problem is the "skill damage" from the -1050 more loses. There ... you can change it to give not more but less stat damage (if not remove it altogether).


[quote name='Aeoshattr' date='17 September 2009 - 06:35 AM' timestamp='1253165718' post='41975']
As much as i insisted with that creature stable, i actually like burns' idea. but i can't see how that will make players run out of sanctuaries...
[/quote]
question for you Aeoshattr: why aren't you idle all day long ?
and because you would say that you don't want to have too many wins/loses, I will say:
in a system where you are not punished (too bad) for staying all day idle, and you don't lose too much ... then ... people don't mind doing it.

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The honor system makes no sense, and taking the stat damage away and leaving the exp reward they would get would be bad. The whole system is just screwy. Getting rid of honor would get rid of stat damage, and exp reward. Simple. And no, I don't love the new achievments. I could care less, but not much less. I still haven't gotten any (wouldn't be hard, but I haven't bothered).
And again burns, if people like Lifeline or MRD or whowever just keep getting vics, they will become perm balanced and never need to give out a loss to anyone.

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Guybrush what do you want then? Why are you against everything? You feel the need to argue with everyone? Just because YOU cannot get honor doesn't mean that others cannot also. And you cannot win against MRD and/or Lifeline so why do you care? Aren't there enough noobs you can beat?
Shish...I had enough of your whining and complaints and rants!

I totally agree that balance needs to be extended.
And I agree with No one that the "any win gives a vic" is not good. This was the system 1 year ago. Willow was full of idlers waiting to get loses. That system did not work so we don't need to get back to it. We need to move forward. Maybe change the conditions for getting a lose maybe something else.

I will add things later if i remember them (concentration issues right now :))

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[quote name='Burns' date='17 September 2009 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1253171295' post='41980']
it won't change too much straigth away, but if people get vics everytime they win, they get thrown off balance after some time and will need to lose, while now i can just set rits that kill and never get a vic from it...
after some time, the players would need to lose on purpose to keep balance, and then (i hope) players like you, Pip, come out of their sanctuaries and fetch victories from them, get into balance again, raise critters again...

right now, you and other weak players like you completely depend on the generousity of older players if you want to raise any crits at all, but if they actually needed some losses, we'd have a win-win situation and (hopefully) more cooperation
[/quote]

I rarely sit in sanctuaries...if I do, I'm probably in the Paper Cabin

Anyways, the way I see it is the more aggressive people would start grouping together and giving each other losses, while taking wins at the same time.

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EDIT:
An anonymous contributer came up with the following:

Ok, situation right now is that people hide because they are afraid of getting stat damage due to too many lost fights. This results into less new "fighters" and as such only the strongest fighters are available to challenge (outside battlegrounds with specific rules). And they only want wins, not victories, which causes people to get losses when losing to them.

Therefore, victories need to be more attractive. The initial post suggested a system that forces people to get vics, no matter if they like it or not, whenever they get a win. Mr. Anonymous, on the other hand, does only want people to lose a certain percentage of VE, which from some point onwards inevitably creates victories, and saves newbies from getting sheaths.

Here's a simple little calculation: We take all stats and principles of a player, sum them up, and call that value X.

Now, if X is lower than 5000, the player is not affected at all.
BUT:
X > 5000 => 1%
> 10k => 2%
> 15k => 3%
.
.
> 100k => 20%

strange figures, eh? What do they mean?
They say, if a player with X > 10k fights and kills something 0-100, he won't get anything from the fight, no stats and no wins or xp on his crits. However, if he manages to lose 2% in the process, by whichever means, he gets all his rewards and a bonus for balance if he's in it.

This means, players can simply beat up others til a certain limit, from there onwards, they have to use their brains to set rits that will give them something, and from X=50k onwards (that's quite a lot, but basically as much as the average grinder has these days), they can't gain anything from giving people losses anymore, 'cept maybe the satisfaction of beating them up. (<- this means, according to definiton of a loss, that the losing party doesn't get a lost fight-count if you are not merely bashing, but playing for gains! 90% difference)


As the only problem in fighting currently is that vets can gain from stomping newbies and giving them losses, this should change the habits of high-stat-players if they want to grind on, and in the process give them victories which they'd like to lose again to get better balance rewards, ONLY IF they care to do so, nobody would be forced to do it before honor issues kick in. Edited by Burns

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hmm,

[quote] and from X=50k onwards (that's quite a lot, but basically as much as the average grinder has these days),[/quote]
50k is the average for a grinder ?
hmm, it might be if we make the average with the veterans and the noobs, but we all know that extremes never count.

as for ... me (as I will pass 50k soon, lol if i'm not average) ... then ... what ??? please explain what should happen ?

[quote]
They say, if a player with X > 10k fights and kills something 0-100, he won't get anything from the fight, no stats and no wins or xp on his crits. However, if he manages to lose 2% in the process, by whichever means, he gets all his rewards and a bonus for balance if he's in it.
[/quote]
what ?

and why only lose ?
;) who is this joker that wants to remain anonymous ?

So, consider that a high stat grinder wants to get a victory. Trust me , he will find ways to kick your best ritual and lose more then half of his ve, in the first round (round 0) without you even touching him.



There are problems and there are solutions.
But because you cannot do one thing or you cannot understand it or ... you cannot adapt to it means that is a problem.

True, there is that problem with new players and veterans and with the rules of combat but ... it gets really annoying [color="#FFFFFF"]that sorrow losers[/color] that don't even understand the rules of combat in this game and don't bother to look at the spoilers on this forum are trying to change them.
Damn it, there are ways to do whatever you want in this game. Why don't you look for ways to do it instead of complaining.

Edited by No one

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i'm fully aware of how to lose VE without being touched by others, i needed to get my ass out of skill-dmg (without using mp2 LOL) ;)

but i'm sure that loads of people out there don't know how to do that and never botherd to learn that...

i'm also aware of the fact that one can avoid vics, but that's pretty hard and not everybody can win that way just like that...


apart form that, it'd be fine with me if you got any other ideas about how to get some activity back, my only one is making sure that newbies don't get losses when vets are farming them, i completely blame skill-dmg for the loss of players -.-

i might be on the wrong track, yeah, but i won't admit that before it's proven LOL

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Oh darn, not that. Wouldn't want you to have to ask someone for 1/10th of a burst to upgrade a bird.

Anywho, I am getting sick and tired of people talking about there being a way to do ANYTHING in MD. No, no there is NOT a way to do anything. It's very flexible, there are a lot of things you can do, but new players CAN NOT, even with all the knowledge in the world, keep a vetran from turning their face into porridge. Even if we were to assume that is the case, they are new players, they should not be expected to be as knowledgeable about battles as DST and Burns or Shadowseeker, just so they don't end up with major losses. That being said, I don't think new players are having difficulties into the thousands are they? I don't think I've seen anyone who is in the stat damage area who didn't want to be there before stat damage was implemented.

We could attempt to give incentive for vets to not get losses, or, we could just get rid of the problem of having too many losses. Just get rid of balance and honor, or just get rid of balance. You could remove stat damage, at the same time go ahead and remove the bonus exp from high honor. Then there is no reason to not be balanced, players would/should work toward that, but losses aren't a big deal.

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It's really not that evolved for a chat client. Though I suppose it has pretty pictures and an interesting method of changing chat rooms, though if people are all staying in mostly the same sanctuary, you don't see much of that coming into play. Edited by Guybrush Threepwood

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