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Fenrir Greycloth

Removal Of The Acceptance Of Alts

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umm interesting topic which is posted in hopes to get implemented system which is impossible to work, in other words this topic is posted without enough knowledge and experience on this matter

so ya say lets monitor all and lets have staff that does that, fine by me, but main problem is that it isnt possible

it will take whole damn system to monitor such activities and it will take like 20 ppl to work on that

i will give ya example of one BIG online gaming industry that has that system in place, theirs name is gameforge, now i will let ya know how big it is and then to use that info on theirs system for anti rules abusing and how it works, they are big online gaming company they have like 15 different online games, each game is translated to many languages so many countries have their own servers,
for example germany has like 80 servers for one of those games then argentina has like 2, and so on, all of theirs games have strict rule, for example for one game ya arent allowed to attack same person more than 5 times in same day, unless attacks are under 30 mins then it is counted as waves of attack, or unless it is war, then multi accs are also forbidden, script using, then helping stronger player by giving him resources in any way possible, unfair trades (there is official ratio for trades, trade can vary a little of that ratio, but not much, with unfair trades it is meant that if one gives like 100k of one resource to other player in exchange for lets say 100 of other resources so this is considered as helping stronger player getting more resources in unfair way if more resources got weaker player (like newbie not 2 places on rank list under stronger player) then its oke), so bunch of damn rules, this are few, also very big system is in place that helps a lot in monitoring those things, their staff can see everything with those tools and if ya get caught there is no mercy ya can get punishment to give staff 10 times bigger amount of resources than ya received in time limited interval, to few days/weeks ban to perm ban (perm ban means 20 years ban inactive accs are deleted after 1 month if there is known unactivity (feature which can be triggered by player) then that adds like one more month, then why not 3 months ban instead of 20 years? becoz accs with bought premium crap arent deleted as long as premium is still lasting)
there are exceptions for ip's if more players are playing and if it is reported like brothers or whole building has same ip or whole village has same ip, they also check multy accs by cookies, but that is even less to trust than ip's which can be overpassed by proxy while cookies if deleted ya cant know anything but if cookie of one acc is detected on another acc :D ya are dead meat (except it is reported acc sharing and that is allowed each time by different person and it is limited to 12h)
so each server has like 1-3 game operators super game operator is dude that is supervisoring few servers and game admin is dude that is supervisoring all country servs so 3-7 ppl working on one serv plus ya have system that is automatically detecting some abuses and automatically banning them and other part of system that is helping in monitoring

so now ya know how large games they have and what kind of system and rules they have... now what happens..
it happens from time to time that some players get banned without being guilty at all, ofc they can complain, but if they can prove they arent guilty sry dudes ya still remain banned, for example ya forget to report trade that isnt by rules or forget to report acc sharing (its actually isnt allowed ya get perm ban for it in here i am reffering to acc sitting which means guarding someone's acc for limited time), and other situations, then abuses arent stopped, ya can still use multiple browsers to avoid cookie detection, if ya use in same browser one tab without proxy and other with proxy in same time ya will get detected by cookies, then ya can make multy accs build some economy up near ya, no def, login once per month with proxy, and ya ride it all the time from your main, ya wont ever get detected, and there is much more

that means single person is watching on logs of 1-2k ppl everything wot happens between them, and those games have wot? attack and transport action nothing else can happen between players except that and it produces HUGE logs even with those almighty tools they have its a hell of work

conclusion is that md has MUCH MUCH more features that needs to be monitored than those games which monitor for multy accs attacks and transports, ya will need mur to make those awesome tools without them gl with stopping abuses, ya will need staff, yea find ppl that can be trusted for this, md doesnt even have enough of ppl to cover other works like translations for example, so even if in pure start of all this ya get rid of all alts, ya still ATM!!! have 200 active and 200-300 semi-active players those players will produce HUGE amount of logs, and ofc it will use server's resources, and still abuses will be possible for the ones that know how to abuse, and i am telling ya that ya will stop nothing, coz most of players ingame that are abusing now will still be able to abuse it even after ya do all this to stop it, so if ya start this fight against abuses it will end up like fight against prostitution, in which case it happened that if ya cant stop it legalize it

edit: yea fenrir sure 25 gms might be enough to do the work, and sure ofc that i agree with burns, its impossible work

Edited by Liberty4life

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Fenrir, there are many people that "wouldnt mind" to go through the logs etc

what there [u]isn't[/u] is enough people that are TRUSTED to do it, someone going through logs like that, would doubtless be able to also see various things which should be kept to themselves, unfortunately there are far too few people who meet both descriptions

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[quote name='Jester' date='09 August 2009 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1249857078' post='39090']
Why is Fenrir always the "Champion of Justice"? Don't people realize hes the biggest cheater MD has ever seen?
[/quote]

Ironical isn't it? LOL

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I'm not really trying to bring up old stuff, I'm just saying he doesn't really have the record required to act that way legitimately, and frankly I'm just getting tired of him always saying what is supposedly right and just. People have opinions, yours aren't necessarily the correct ones.

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I am sure Jesus had naughty thoughts about women, doesn't make him any less good or whatever though does it?

Just because I did something srupid once, does not mean I am a bad person. I paid for my mistake. I have been out of prison for two months now, have made major progress ig wise (despite the hard time people keep giving me)and done nothing to warrent this behaviour any further. I may not be the easiest person to get along with but if you asked me for help, I will help you, no matter if I am frustrated or not.

Now can we get back on topic please? Edited by Fenrir Greycloth

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lol lib what kind of crappy games do u play?

ok to avoid looking like a spammer let me think of something constructive to put in here....hmmm....ahh...mhhh....cant think of anything...dammit
*dances and writes something into his book* ah that was very bad rp and rp wont save me here anyway. i still look like a spammer ...crap

no seriously MD doesnt need a police to watch everything going on. rules just limit freedom and alt abuse isnt really that bad to be worth the trouble. i mean come on! all u get is age on crits and awesome vit and vp boosts. and i personally am even to lazy to do that. its simply not worth it as somebody said already. if u want to monitor possible abuses do it for wish points. that is the only thing important enough to be monitored.

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[quote name='Lifeline' date='09 August 2009 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1249859202' post='39098']
lol lib what kind of crappy games do u play?

ok to avoid looking like a spammer let me think of something constructive to put in here....hmmm....ahh...mhhh....cant think of anything...dammit
*dances and writes something into his book* ah that was very bad rp and rp wont save me here anyway. i still look like a spammer ...crap

no seriously MD doesnt need a police to watch everything going on. rules just limit freedom and alt abuse isnt really that bad to be worth the trouble. i mean come on! all u get is age on crits and awesome vit and vp boosts. and i personally am even to lazy to do that. its simply not worth it as somebody said already. if u want to monitor possible abuses do it for wish points. that is the only thing important enough to be monitored.
[/quote]

but the fact that there are a LIMITED ammount of creature slots gives me reason to belive that multiple accounts to get more creature slots is abuse. And the whole point of age is to slow down progression. So that we can't be the best in a matter of months while the best took years.

Why not just remove the age if all you are going to do is find a way around it?



No I do not suggest removing age. Just trying to make a point. Edited by Fenrir Greycloth

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Fenrir, what don't you understand? At this point what you suggest is not possible. Maybe, in the future, when MD will be a game with ks of players then [u]maybe[/u] those things will be implemented.
Do you really like even if you see that everyone is against you? Geez!

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if that's your point, we can stop MD right now, cause people are capable of working around every rule and mechanic in all of MD if they want to...

remember hardcore-grinding? that's avoiding the usual stat-gains, so should we fight without stats from now on?
rare creatures? people can get tons of them when they want to do it, should we take them out of the game?
MD Shop? people with patience/dedication can avoid buying creds, so should the shop be closed?


i guess this must be pretty hard for an abrasive young man like yourself, but you can't have both...
you are either amongst the strong players OR amongst the 'good' players, if you want to call the creative ways of being faster bad at all, or you'll need lots of patience...

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[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='09 August 2009 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1249838659' post='39051']
And unfortunately just stopping an alt from trading on the same ip won't work. We will need to have a way for the logs to stay with the creature itself and to recognise going back to it's original owners ip.
[/quote]
why should recognize if it going to same ip ? Possible situation : I buy a token (not creature, just token) : i talk to a player to put some tokens on my creature (like drachs) and to give it back
so, is there a harm in that ? NO
is it acceptable ? YES



[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' date='09 August 2009 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1249841100' post='39063']
... Another is have all trades monitored to make sure that they aren't one way deals, like imperial for diddly squat between an older person and a random MP3 no one has ever heard of.

... and it's a pain in the butt to try and monitor every single trade.
[/quote]
Should be policed like ... need to give something else in return ... NO, it is PLAIN STUPID (teaching is still paid nowadays)
Are gifts allowed? YES (see quests)


[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='09 August 2009 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1249841733' post='39065']
Well, it is not like we can just write a line of code and the problem is fixed. There will always need to be someone watching over the player base to make sure noone is cheating. That is one of the roles as a game manager I am afraid. Maybe we need another one?
[/quote]
... noone is cheating ... that is a bit harsh ... there are lots and lots of ways to cheat.
First of all define ALL kind of cheats and check them against current rules.

Second ... do a damn alt and get it to MP5 and see how it feels, then talk (darn noob) :)):)):))



Somebody should pause this topic until Fenrir gets an alt to MP5.

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Alt is a way of life for some players right now.

Those who doesnt, is slowly learning.

Maybe there will come a day when its not acceptable, but until that day comes, enjoy it.

You have to admit, seeing Snow White with her Seven Dwarfs online in MD will bring a smile to anyone's face.

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..Since when did RPCs turn into a police to regulate alts?

Sorry, but I just find this ridiculous. It's one of the special rules in MD that you CAN use alts..(and bugs, until people abused too much).

Alter this and some of the freedom gets lost..I admit I don't know every alt, but the active alts sooner or later get found out..and some are really incredible in RPing. I won't name them yet though.

I myself have no serious alt, but for a sole reason: If I would alt, then I#d have to divide my attention to give it the amount of time it deserves. If people can manage, let them do it. It's about creativity, and alts are a way to express that.

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Reading through this topic, I now have a strong urge to crreate an alt and experience all these great new things.
how foolish of me to deprive myseelf of this experience! Ah well, "One must understand the purpose of a rule before one maay break it."

Just sayin' :))

EDIT:

An important point is that people actually have alters in Real Life too.

Let me explain. We all know that in different scenarios, the same person can act differently. It's a fact of life- We carry different "moods," different "states o f mind" waiting to be activated by different, possibly similar situations.

What some don't realize is that the mind is actually built BASED ON this phenomenon. Get a person drunk and teach them something; they're quite likely to remember it whilst drunk,, and even when drunk in the future! However, sober them up and I can mostly guarantee they'll forget almost everything. (This has been tested rigorously.)
Basically, each of us has a whole set of identities with different "triggers". while some information overlaps between them, which makes us us, much varies.

Magic Duel is meant to reflect life to a certain extent, and thus absolutely MUST allow for alters.

Edited by Numerius Felix

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Aken, topic is dead. Alts are okay if they are used properly, but as the recent news log shows, they are not. Atleast by some.

If we were to just ban the trading of creatures from alternate characters that would be fine by me. Any ideas anyone?

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I see a lot here about having alts to place tokens and gain age being fine. Frankly it's not, it's against the rules to make alts for the purpose of supporting your main. Do I think banning alts is a good idea? No. Discouraging alts whose only purpose is to support the main by gaining free credits in the shop and aging critters? Yes. In fact, alts that just gain free credits to place tokens and trade over shop critters and or items I would like to ban, is it hard? Yes. Impossible? No, but certainly hard enough to not necessarily be worth it.

But Fenrir is right, those sorts of alts should at least be discouraged. You people sound like I should be doing this. I've been working hard to get my Ve as hard as it is. (All my Vp came from heads and labyrinth, couldn't care less about Vp and have never tried to raise it.) It annoys me that in about 20 or so days there will be people running around with insane Ve, and in 80 anyone willing to age critters on an alt will have insane Ve. It also annoys me when people are running around with 5 BPs that they got from the shop or similar things. But hey, if the decision that alt abuse in this manner is fine, I'll go for it, of course I'm behind on the matter, but hopefully I will catch up.

Edit:
As for coding solutions, perhaps it would be simple enough to monitor trades from characters with a certain amount of credits to activity ratio. Activity being measured in time spent online, or battles, or chat, or some sort of thing. Most everyone does free credits, not everyone fights much, so sure, that's an issue.

Also, if I was willing to spend the WP I am relatively sure I could get a alt to MP5 in a day if I used an aged critter from another alt. :P

Edited by Guybrush Threepwood

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and although i only read about half of the first page, i will make this comment on alts, Sometimes it doesn't work if another person is on the other end of the RP, like when The Puzzle Master was chasing Bored Clone and ended up in The Marble Dale Park, i don't know how many of you remember it as it was so long ago, but that wouldn't have worked if it had been 2 different people in the RP, as it is they are both me. some times it takes alts to do things seperate players can't.

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