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Muratus del Mur

Most Wanted - Tokens Getting Balanced

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[quote name='Burns' date='25 August 2009 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1251210934' post='40227']
interesting thoughts...

we have stopped quarreling over rusties because they are expensive enough, if people really want to buy them, they can also use them... they don't show their true value to people without golemus-drachs anyway, and for those, you need to quest or trade... mainly trade, these days XD

tokens, on the other hand, come for as little as one (1) buck and have insane powers, in fact powers huge enough to destroy all the people who did pretty much stat-farming for a pretty long time...

and, seemingly a way to get done with grinders, they are now just making grinders a thousand times stronger than normally, so i guess a nice way to deal with the issue might be making tokens progressively weaker with active days...

like, i'm not sure about this since it just popped to my head, but how would it sound to make tokens start losing their power after day 150, with... say... half a percent a day, finishing in 0% (useless) tokens at day 350?
of course that puts the issue of uselessness to some players, and all players after some time, at hand, but to me it would seem like a solution to make the tokens do what they should, give players a chance against the old-age-grinders...

same could be thought about with stats (as mur is doing right now, i guess), starting to make them weaker after 500 atk, and ending in useless tokens at 5k atk (this is a random number i just came up with, don't hang me on that, please) to bring up the same effect, that i think to be the desired one...
[/quote]



If you used the idea to make tokens weaker with active days you could change the slogan from "a newer player can beat an older one" to "a newer player can beat an older one, but an older one can't beat a newer one" because there is no way I could compete with someone with 150 active days and tokens no matter how much I stat trained. That's a terrible idea. Either that or I would make an alt and just give all the creatures to him. Edited by Jester

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Damn this lappy! I have to write the hole post again!

So...I was saying that why should tokens be focused on stats? What if they would be used for other things?
I will try to give some random examples that popped up in my mind while reading all your posts:

1) What if tokens would give auras? For the right principles combination you get several types of auras and for every 5k (btw: numbers are just random) of principles the effectiveness of the aura increases by a certain percentage.

2)What if for a certain combination of principles (2 out of 3 etc) and after a certain amount you get some spells (1 cast for 5k) with this one having a cap.Or maybe principles should be removed after casting a spell. This way principles become some sort of currency. I agree...this is not a good idea (I just realized how exploitable things can get) but still....it can be improved.

3)What if a token attached to a crit would transform that crit into something nice, achievable only by tokens? This thing should have a chance of happening really low so it can give a nice, rare crit. Otherwise would give something else (not something extraordinary but good enough to make someone buy that token).

4)....forgot my idea...


I will add more as I think at them...

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Well, then it's easy..

Make tokens only be able to stack a maximum of like

1000 points, or even lower for attack
150 points for initiative
100 points for regen
1000 points for defense

onto one creat, EVEN adding the whole load of multipliers which don't work sometimes as described.

But..if that's done the usage of tokens will promote stat grinding again. And by doing so, I'm unsure whether I still like the slider method, adding more would be for the grinders, which win in the end no matter what then.

Otherwise, people cannot actually make new players be able to win against older players...I blame the freeze and antifreeze, which was destroying the main feature.

And yes, even before, only relying on freeze was the only way to go against a stat grinder who trained obessively, otherwise the stats kick in and you lose.

I'd suggest a creature like a roulette:

45% chance it just uh..let's say boost defense of creatures by 100 points for each creat, at max level of course.
1% that your enemies creatures get frozen randomly
10% chance that the own creatures only deal 1% of the original damage
15% chance that the enemies creatures deal 1% of the original damage
9% chance that your own creatures get frozen randomly
20% chance that you and your enemy both get one creature frozen

I'd describe the only 1% damage concept as intimidated or so.


Something along that principle, so using it can be a disadvantage, however there's still a chance.

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Hold on Shadowseeker, we aren't talking about making it so that token users don't have the advantage in a fight, we are talking about making it so that if I fight a token user who has 6 heretic archers while I'm using good tokenless critters, and he has 0 in all stats, I can still win. (I have exaggerated greatly.) I'm ok with tokens being as strong as stats, but 100 times stronger, not so ok with. And YAY Burns suggestion for average and good stats. I now feel above average. Not good of course, but above average. Also, when we are giving these stats as average and good and whatnot, I am assuming that we are including armor bonuses and alliance bonuses, probably a fair assumption, but I guess I don't know that it is.

And yeah, hit the nail on the head. At 51$ and the age requirement, rusties should be overpowered. I'm ok with that, as long as people aren't cheating to get them.

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I think I'm going to bring up my suggestion again, drowned a few pages back. What do you think of tokens giving a percentage bonus to the stats, kind of like how armor works. Therefore, stats will still matter, because having tokens would benefit you much less if you have no stats. The amount of principles can determine the maximum amount of bonus that the token can give. So for example, let's say token A gives bonus to attack by 50% to a creature, with a cap of 10% of principle B. So if someone has 1000 attack and 2500 principle B, it would originally boost his attack by 500 (50% of 1000), but is capped at 250 (10% of principle B which is 2500). Raising the value of principle B will allow the person to fully enjoy the benefits of the tokens. This way, stats and principle are both important, and neither will be effective without the other.

I like dst's idea of toke combinations granting auras, that could be a good way to make interesting tokens.
As for using principles as currency fo spells, it is supposed to be like that with inner magic, but since inner magic hasn't been implemented....

And anti freeze? Certainly should be removed. At least the one that gave 100% antifreeze. Chance based ones are still acceptable, IMHO.

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Well, that's the deal Guybrush..you CANNOT, unless you cap it like I mentioned.

That what I suggested means you need to have over 6000 attack etc to compare to the tokens stats alone.

Not to mention insane initiative, the values I set were high already. You need to multiply by 6 to see your personal stats you'd have to use.


And yeah, udgard, just like I said...in previous posts. The permanent one was the biggest issue if you asked me.


As for mixing things to get certain things, considerable, but means loads of work to code as well, or so I assume. Otherwise, interesting idea..but I'd also want an option to choose if I want the new feature even, and if I do get it I would like to be able to revert back...

But just stacking auras is no method imo. I mean, what original things can you come up with that won't mess combat even more, alike to the old method? Name a few which aren't copied off the existing ones already and don't mean loads of work and actually have a real use...

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everybody in here seems fine with the rusty which is much stronger than token for average players!!! dont u guys realize that the only "cheap" token u can buy are the claw1 and 2? darksky is deep in the shop (u have to exhaust 3 branches before u get to it. and minumum is 2x12 and 1x18 = 42credits). that are 42credits to just have a chance for darksky no gurantee! for 54 credits u get a rusty and 3 other premium crits. and claw 3 (the one most people complain about)is the very last token branch so even worth more than a rusty alone.
every average guy wins over another average guy if he has a rusty. that is a simple fact. and on mp4 no matter how much u train token will never save u from a rusty even if u invest twice the amount of credits.
so overthink this 42credits to just have a chance for darksky along with other bad aspects like random distribution and low chance to happen. so u spend 42 credits that most ppl dont have on an alt so u are also forced to send all ur other crits away. making them loose all wins xp ect and a huge age loss because u need to send them back and forth. and dont forget that only darkness principle helps darksky so its weakened even more.
ok now claw 3: minimum credits invested to get it is 54$! with that u can already buy a rusty and 3 pimps.
EDIT: if u exhaust darkseries u have to spend 18credits and exhausting light takes 12. u spend 72$ on those token and dont even have all (u missed 3entire branches). plus all the trouble with getting them on the rigth crits ect. Exhausting all token takes 120$ and that is no matter how u look at it even worth more than 2rusties, 6pimps and 2gold.
so...if u want nice token on ur crits u can just buy 2 rusties for almost the same price. now 2 rustys 2 antifreeze 2 freeze and huge attack power which u can compare to token. how good have ur principles to be to beat 2 rusties with normal creatures? above average for sure. and now if u have a gg drachy then i can stop right away because then the drachorns will own any above average token player with normal crits.
and now dont tell me about shopresets ect. its way easier to buy 2 rusties even if u are a new player then to get the right token on the right creatures.

so before u keep complaining and trying to balance the fighting equal tokens to 2 rusties in the rit.

in conclusion the only token i see that needs to really be lowered because it is easly buyable and gettable is the claw2.
that is unfair indeed. u buy 12claw token to have claw2 on 6crits (if u only have 6 crits to begin with) that do insane damage then. and that for just 12credits. that is indeed overpowered. so if u think about fair balancing lower the claw2.
darksky and claw3 are almost equal 2 rusties, 6pimps and 2gold and i think u all know how unbeatable 2 rusties are for somebody who doesnt have one
EDIT: 120$ = all token (that with random distribution. and claw3 max on 4 crits if u want to make sure that all get it. if u buy it for 5 crits u might end up with only 3 claw3. and darksky is useless for 50% of all players because without darkness principle it does nothing at all)
110$ = 2 rusties, 6pimps and 2 gold Edited by Lifeline

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and yet, i can beat 2 goddamn rusties with ease, actually without even making up a proper rit, while i will NEVER win against a darksky with some darkness... NEVER, even with some nice tokens

and well, at second glance, i don't like my age suggestion that much, either, but start to like the stat-suggestion even more...

once you have a decent fighting profile, you should be able to deal with tokens... and you can't play god-mod ith tokens that way, either, since you will sooner or later start to lose your token power and be reduced to 'real' fighting...

(i admit, this is the opinion of a player who is not winning with tokens, and i can't turn off the selfish-mode that easily, but you also have to see that lifeline is one of the few players who kill anything with their tokens, while they would have at least minor problems if they were turned lower/off again)

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lol, lifeline is in a category buy himself when it comes to tokens

One way to fix most of the current issues with round 0 or round 1 victories is to buff creature boost but only have it apply to the base attack/defense/init of a creature and have it stack directly instead of exponentially (so 100%+100% would be 200% bonus or 300% base attack and not 400% base attack)

and then boost the bloodpact/rusty's creature boost a little to make it significant (say up to 150% for the bloodpact and double the current amount of the rusty)

this would greatly lower the damage done by 5 bloodpact+chaos or 5 rusty+gg drach rituals and would help solve the problem of ppl (myself included) hording those creatures

Other then this I also strongly support removing the 100% antifreeze from blood 2 (the 50% is fine imo) and putting the tokens on a log scale with the 10k principles corresponding to 1k attack or so (since most people I know/see with 10k principles have around 3k attack making it better to use 100% and ignore the token for single and double creature rituals)

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I would like to point out that Blood tokens are only reasonable to buy at all if you have the principals needed for the blood II anti-freeze. I see no reason to have a COMPLETELY useless token, so if we are going to mess with blood II, we ought to at least come up with a change, not just discard it.

Lifeline I think you have missed some important points. Obviously you don't want to buy all the tokens, some are useless, or close enough as to not waste money. Another point is that while it may take more money to get to Claw III, not quite darkskye, you do get MORE. Rusties, you get one, pimped are nice and colorful sure, also not terribly useful, yeah, they are better than grassan, which are great, but not enough better to really make anything out of it.

How much money would you need to get 18 rusties? Sure, darkskye don't necessarily compare to a rusty on their own, but certainly a claw III and a darkskye do.

As for balancing tokens without a cap Shadowseeker, it could be done by creating a function instead. Sure, depending on the function it would practically be a cap at a certain amount of principals, but wouldn't be one.

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That's the same Guybrush, if you use something like a logarithm whether you have 10k or 100k principles makes no difference, may as well cap it..unless you think a few points are worth that.

A change you say? Make the blood token give some nice aura, let's say antifreeze. Done..that's no immunity and existing.

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There's already an anti-freeze token. And yeah, I think it'd be nice to keep principals counting, even if it's just a few points.Also, the piecewise function Mur suggested could work as well I suppose. Really all that needs to be done is make it so that principal gains are at some point equal to or less than stat gains can be done. (Of course if we use Jester as the poster child...)

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i can just say read my post again more carefully its all said in there.
and besides just because u guys are all on mp5 consider mp4 as well. on mp4 token help u almost not at all but a rusty makes u overpowered. and buying minimum token for claw3s and darksky is still 72$ thats more than single rusty. and no tokens on mp4 have a chance vs a rusty.
in token u have to invest a lot of work. u have to train principles...u can only do that with loosing xp. u also have to transfer crits ect... its a huge time investing. most important u are forced to grind to make them useful. for a rusty u need to do nothing at all. u just buy it and kill everything on mp4 that doesnt have one once its max. for people that didnt train much on mp5 a rusty will still be better than tons of token

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lifeline has a point in that rusties are very powerful (are you suggesting a slight nerf or a limit-per-account for rusties?), especially at mp3 and 4, even compared to a tokened creature. it's easier and faster to get a couple of tokened creatures though. the combination of rusty/s + golemus dracs AND tokens is what makes them neigh-unbeatable. pre-token era it wasn't overpowered [i]by itself[/i], so i'd say it's a special problem of synergies. if you compare tokens (by themself) and rusty (by itself) i don't see why you make such a huge point of it. a single rusty can in no way unbalance as much as some well placed tokens, and while the impact of a rusty is higher on lower mp levels it can be dealt with if you know what you are doing :)
(i defeated mp5s which used multiple rusties/golemus dracs, pre-token era, when i was mp3 [without birdy spam]. and i surely wasn't the only one)
[color="#0000FF"]
havne't had much time for playing or following the discussion lately, so if i missed your point or if my infos are outdated ignore this :P [/color]

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We are thinking about MP5 because that's where you end up if you care about fighting. And frankly it takes a lot more work, at least at MP5, to max a rusty than gain a couple thousand principals if you're smart about it. I can beat a person with a single rusty ANY DAY. I can not beat someone who's trained a reasonable amount with 12 darkskyes and 6 Claw IIIs. Rusties only work amazingly if you have a drach, and preferably more rusties. Tokens only work if you have ever met Jester or half the other MP5s in the game. Give me a day with someone, they don't even need to be on, and I will give them thousands in whatever principal they choose to get when they sac their critter. I can not however max a rusty in a day, or get them a drach.

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wont removing the init stat from claw 3 fix everything ?? for most people all are saying is that they lose for people do first hit because of claw 3's init boost.. so if u remove that then what a normal player has to do is train his VE like crazy :) i think

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[quote name='Death Bell' date='27 August 2009 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1251410297' post='40357']
wont removing the init stat from claw 3 fix everything ?? for most people all are saying is that they lose for people do first hit because of claw 3's init boost.. so if u remove that then what a normal player has to do is train his VE like crazy ;) i think
[/quote]

i have been thinking more about tokens lately and agree with Death Bell - removing the initiative boost from claw3 completely would help a lot. to beat a rit with huge attack and defense is still possible but if on top of that an insane amount of ini is added and allows the opponent to attack with 6 creatures in the first turn its truelly overpowered. and especially initiative is one of the hardest skills to get. having a token boost it into ridiculous amounts is to overpowered. the small 20% boost for initiative on blooddrop token for example are still because it will then be a small value being added, but one token giving a crit only 100 initiative is already to unbalanced. so yeah removing claw3s initiative boost will balance the fighting system a lot. a smart fighter can deal with a ritual that has huge attack because of token.

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Tokens are already way too messed up. All removing the initiative from claw 3 will do is make it so a really expensive token becomes worthless. There simply is no way to balance tokens with the way they are right now. That is all there is too it. I have yet to see a single suggestion that makes sense. I think tokens were a mistake, and the only way to fix them would be to completely redo the entire way they work. Since I doubt that will happen, the only thing to do (in my opinion) is wait for a solution that actually makes sense to surface (not likely) or deal with the way they are.

If you want I can post an idea of mine about the way tokens could be, but I have no idea how hard it would be to program and doing everything all over again doesn't seem likely to happen to me.

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i agree with jester that tokens cant get balanced like this, and that it would be best that they get removed... or it other words, for now to remove all theirs boosts and to think of something else than boosting stats, if tokens were to add auras or abilities to creatures then it would be really nice, but when it comes to stats, we just hit the sky with them and thats ridiculous

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hmm true ok then here another idea:

new feature that token can only be used 10-20 times a day (random number). when u set ur ritual there is another box just below the set as def rit that says use token. (if u click on it the rit will use token if u leave it empty it wont) if u bind a def rit that uses token and get attack ur uses per day just get used up. then token couldnt be completely abused. u just have limited uses of them per day and setting them in a def rit could cost u ur charges very quickly. so for important fights u save ur token and otherwise fight without.

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I would love to be able to choose to fight without tokens. Be helpful for a lot of things, but this doesn't fix the problem if wars come about. 10-20 battles is enough to slaughter for that purpose. Also, what would happen on defense?

I think this may have been mentioned before, but what about capping the token bonus at a percentage of your stats? The percentage could be different for each token and I really have no idea what percentage that would be, but, it would be easy to keep it from being exceptionally overpowered (except on people who are already exceptionally overpowered, so really, who cares.) and it could still be useful to everyone.

Also, the initiative bonus from blood 1 is, to my knowledge, always 1 or 0, because it does not take your stats into consideration and as far as I know there is no critter with more than 5 initiative. A bonus 1 initiative might be fun nifty for an MP3, or on an elemental to keep them hitting before a chaos archer (though not that nice) but it's a pretty darn worthless token. Blood III has the exact same problem, it's worthless. Unless of course things have been changed since I last checked, which was a long time ago. I haven't done much fighting with the whole tokens on defense always being 100% issue.

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[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' date='07 September 2009 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1252356758' post='41127']
I would love to be able to choose to fight without tokens. Be helpful for a lot of things, but this doesn't fix the problem if wars come about. 10-20 battles is enough to slaughter for that purpose. Also, what would happen on defense?

I think this may have been mentioned before, but what about capping the token bonus at a percentage of your stats? The percentage could be different for each token and I really have no idea what percentage that would be, but, it would be easy to keep it from being exceptionally overpowered (except on people who are already exceptionally overpowered, so really, who cares.) and it could still be useful to everyone.

Also, the initiative bonus from blood 1 is, to my knowledge, always 1 or 0, because it does not take your stats into consideration and as far as I know there is no critter with more than 5 initiative. A bonus 1 initiative might be fun nifty for an MP3, or on an elemental to keep them hitting before a chaos archer (though not that nice) but it's a pretty darn worthless token. Blood III has the exact same problem, it's worthless. Unless of course things have been changed since I last checked, which was a long time ago. I haven't done much fighting with the whole tokens on defense always being 100% issue.
[/quote]


Guybrush, THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF BUYING TOKENS WOULD BE IF WARS CAME OUT. You can't seriously think that war should be fair, do you? The only reason I would get interested in combat is if there was a reason. Why spend tons of money on tokens and stuff if you can't use it?

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*rolls his eyes.* The problem is that tokens are infinitly (I like to exagerate) overpowered. The entire point of being strong is to fight in wars. The entire point of fixing tokens is for wars. My point is that tokens should be HELPFUL. Heck, doubling stats is HELPFUL. 10k initiative is LUDICROUS. My point is that Lifeline's idea would not help. I would still like my tokens if they gave me a 100 attack bonus on each of my critters, I would buy them. I would be ok with a token adding 200 to all of my critters. Tokens adding 3k or more damage to each critter before auras, well, that's not so ok. Tokens need to be balanced for the purpose of wars. Not made useless mind you, just less overpowering. As it is, Lifeline's suggestion keeps them as overpowering for the only time it matters.

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