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Harion

Is Md Too Exclusive To Entice A Larger Player Base Than Hard Cores?

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so i've stopped playing for a couple of months now
got tired of having the game load slowly for me
though i admit my laptop is a bit ancient, i have other browsergames which doesn't load as slowly as MD
so that's what i've been playing instead of enduring slow loading times with MD
(i like MD very, very much but until i get a new laptop or PC, i guess i'll be out of the game till then)

anyway, this has been a question nagging at me since i started playing MD
is it too exclusive for average gamers to enjoy? i know MD's attractiveness is based on keeping spoilers to a minimum
but is making MD too hard to explore or quests ridiculously hard helping grow the playerbase?
(well, if the game is content with what it has now then i guess it has no problems)

*waits to be flamed*

there has to be a way to keep the hardcore MD players happy and yet still keep average gamers playing
perhaps an easy setting for those who want it?
i've been wondering why there are no non-char NPCs that give out easy quests (that doesn't expire!) so that it'll at least give some players the feeling of progressing in the game instead of being stalled when they can't get over certain parts of the game

*waits for more flaming*

for example, it's currently nigh-impossible to get into loreroot unless you have the knowledge beforehand on how to get in or someone tells you how. i'm not saying it's impossible. i'm just saying it's close to impossible. maybe it's the misleading hints?

making the right ritual isn't the only requirement to get in. otherwise i would've gotten in after i made "that" ritual.

i had to be told WHY i still can't get in after making the right ritual.
could i have discovered it for myself?
well, if i kept at it, i would've since it would've been just a matter of TIME before i fulfilled the requirements
but you know, i've almost given up on getting in thinking it's my rituals that was the problem

anyway, here's my point:

for me, the greatest aspect of MD and the most unique part are the player made quests and the ability to integrate your character into the game. it's what sets MD apart from all those games out there. but it's also the main weakness of MD into why it doesn't grow into a very big game. (but of course, maybe Mur wants the game to stay the way it is, exclusive for elites, so who am i to criticize?)

currently, the game is set so that there are certain parts of the game that you can only access by completing certain quests set by other players such as yourself. there are also parts that can only be unlocked by figuring out puzzles left by Mur. that's all well and good. the problem gets in when some players get roles that become too central to the game they acquire huge powers that can and will be misused.

idk what i'm trying to say. i can't explain myself fully except to say that there has to be away to make MD more friendly to gamers without making it a requirement to be slaves to the elites.

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In some ways, I agree with you. I have often felt like the power has gone to the wrong people, and that those people have done nothing with it. Some seriously awesome abilities have gone to waste because the RPC shortly after went inactive. Simplyzero, RJ, Alche, phrog, Wodin, and others... no offense if you read this, but the fact is that they are not active, and their powers are not given to others. I think that is somewhat wrong. Yes we are each unique, but there can be some recycling.

I think you overdo it on the "exclusive" part. I think MD is exclusive only because it takes a smart person to play this game. Well, play this game and succeed, I should say. The veterans that I know (because to some degree I consider myself a veteran) are all intelligent people, and have earned their place in this game.

Yes, I think there is a lot of potential in MD, and a lot of it is not being realized. Quests have stagnated in the past few months, and that makes me sad. Yes RPCs are inactive, as are PWRs. No offense is meant to the following people, however where is Kragel? Where did Oeufs go? What about Calyx of Isis, and on the topic of her, the university? Bootes? Gargant will put up a quest or two every once in a while. Where did Jonn run away to? What about SubZero? Mur and MD put a lot of power in the hands of these people, who then usually turn around and leave, or abuse it outright. Why is it that a good, active RPC who moves the storyline of the game forward is an exception and not a majority?

Difficult questions without easy answers.

In other ways, I love MD, and will not leave for a good time to come. There is room for change, like there always will be, although lately I have been thinking this room is becoming more of a Great Hall of Sun (har har har, bad MD pun).

Thank you for pointing this out. MD is hard to play, I know from first-hand experience. If you want or need MD to ever be friendlier, drop me a line, and I'll see what I can do.

Awi

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Im quite hessitant to post because first Im not old enough in MD (only 100 some days) and secondly I still have not figure out a lot of things so I'm no expert..but I'd like to share my thoughts on the matter, anyway because I think this is an important issue that needs to be addressed.

I understand what you are saying, I think, because I have felt the same way back when I was starting out (and there are days still that i get those feelings) but I think MD would be less enjoyable for me it it wasnt so complicated and difficult. It's the complexity and my desire to understand things that drives me to continually log in and try to find answers.

In a way MD is, yes, exclusive, for only people who passed through the "filters" get to stay and reach mp5. I think MD was not meant to be easy. It was not meant to be played alone like other games. This game requires you to not only use your intellectual prowess but your social skills as well. Personally, I believe that Md is not so difficult as it seems because it has a very good support system..a very good community (there are just so many people willing to help).

Friends can help you get through a lot of things, be in in RL or online.

As Awiiya said "If you want or need MD to ever be friendlier, drop me a line, and I'll see what I can do." :P


BrightShield

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[quote name='Harion' date='18 July 2009 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1247899441' post='37375']
there has to be a way to keep the hardcore MD players happy and yet still keep average gamers playing
perhaps an easy setting for those who want it?
i've been wondering why there are no non-char NPCs that give out easy quests (that doesn't expire!) so that it'll at least give some players the feeling of progressing in the game instead of being stalled when they can't get over certain parts of the game[/quote]
There's 6 billion people on the planet, even if only one percent of them would be interested in MD, that would still crash the server. Sometimes bigger isn't better and I don't think making an 'easy setting' would work. People are already tempted often enough to cheat, use loopholes, alts, blatantly ask for solutions to quests that have high rewards. I don't mind giving people a hint but giving the answer...

There already are a couple of ongoing or periodic quests/puzzles/competitions. The Berserker puzzle, broken pattern, Loreroot guards. The heads contest. The torch competition is being tested. And some new ones have been mentioned on the challenges pages for a long time, so hopefully they will one day be available and give new people more options on things to do or look forward too.
And then there is the whole factions thing, which is aimed at integrating new players faster too. If I remember correct it is to encourage small non-temporary quests with small but tangible rewards, giving players a lot of things to do. (until they have done all the new static quests and are stuck with the non static ones again)


[quote name='awiiya' date='18 July 2009 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1247905871' post='37379']
I think you overdo it on the "exclusive" part. I think MD is exclusive only because it takes a smart person to play this game. Well, play this game and succeed, I should say. The veterans that I know (because to some degree I consider myself a veteran) are all intelligent people, and have earned their place in this game.[/quote]
Patience is perhaps the most important skill in MD. Obvious examples are creature age and not leaving an area ten seconds after you type 'hello' because no one answered yet. Maybe you have to be smart to notice that this game is played at a different pace than most games and then you have to decide whether you have enough patience and want to be 'hardcore' or go back to fast paced action. Maybe you have to be smart to be patient?
I have to admit I have little patience for the impatient and I don't mind this kind of selection at all. Though it would be wonderful if MD could teach patience before people give up and I think that in a some cases it does.

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Md' has a great playerbase as it is. We all have one thing in common; we do not want just answers but more questions. Or at least that is what I want out of md'. I look forward to logging into md' everyday becuase I know I will be able to do something interest, discover something new, or have a deep conversation with a mr. Beefy. Lol. When I log in the first thing I do is check the adventure page for updates. And then the update page. Sure I admit I don't do quests. Most of them are retarded. Like "get me ten adepts and five protectors and you can have my spell doc"

Something does need to change with these quests. I had a quest that was completed by three people on my hate page. The quest was to write me an essay on the behavioural patterns of knators, or the social heirarchy of the knators. Perhaps this quest was to hard for most people or noone knew about it. I think that more people should have the ability to makes quests, not reward them, but to have a quest page. In order to get the quest activated the player needs to get the quest apprOved by an rpc. This will allow many more quests, and a way to control the quality that comes from them.

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That was my problem since the beginning of MD and still is ... the choice if to make ti more commercial and get BIG or to keep it exclusive and special. Regarded as a business, i could use my 'skills' to make it into a very popular game with high audience and make it so that 80% of the gamers will get addcted to it ... because thats what you do actualy in other games, not like, but get addicted to. For example WOW (i have something personal against the way it was built) is designed to target the highest percentage possible (around 80%).

Since i do not consider MD a business, i will keep it as i feel right with it, exclusive as you call it. The problem is that without many players, the old ones or the ones that the game was made for so to say, will also leave...so we need sacrifice lambs. The game has several filters to kill off players at certain points , the ultimate filter is when you make a difference between the game itself and its community, the moment when you consider yourself an active player even if all you do is to stay on the forum or chat with others, becaues the most valuable thing in MD are its players, not its features.

I worked to much on elitist features, even now for example, i am working on the Black Letters, a series of 15 letters that will be sent out to 15 players ... now imagine how elitist is that if not even all rpcs get those.

Its wrong, true.. but i do it because i enjoy it and the reason you have MD and enjoy it is because i did only the things i enjoyed to do, so i can not make promises that things will get less elitist around here, even if i realise i should make it more easy at the beginning with the regular npc grinding and hardcoded ladder quests ... like any other old fashioned rpg.

There is an other thing you are right about, and if i think better about it , i think solving it it might also solve the first issue too or at least partialy solve it. The powers given to rpcs are lost when those rpcs leave. Thats why i think the wish shop is an essential element in MD because i will put there features that will be rpc-like but achievable by anyone.

All games i played grow in only one direction .. "serial" ... but .. i had a dream before starting MD..to have a "game" grow also in "parallel". For example you read a book, that story grows serial, only in one direction, but what if a book had 1000 versions or branches to it..

People enjoy serial growing of stories and game, they enjoy to gain more and more stats and get deeper in their adventure, even if they realise their adventure has only one way of expanding. Even if you have options to pick skill branches or guilds, its still serial evolution. This type of evolution makes money, all business do it, but its no true adventure behind it. I like adventures that give you total freedom but freedom is not free :) you have to work for it. RPC are more free than a new player, freedom, of choice, of action, this is the trade. There are two ways to be tottaly free, either tottaly smart or tottaly ignorant , ignorant people are "free" to leave.

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I'm not sure about this, but wouldn't it be possible to add a few features designed to keep more people in the game? Pointless little things like a ranking system for alliances which has no affect on anything except that people can work towards it. Things like that can actually keep me occupied for a long amounts of time even while I know there is no point to it. I don't think it would really affect the game as it is too much either, but like I said I'm not certain.

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Yeah but I don't think it would affect the base concept of MD is what I meant. I think it would help people who don't quite get MD (like me, I'm still working on it, think I'm making progress though) to kill time while trying to figure it out.

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[quote name='awiiya' date='18 July 2009 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1247905871' post='37379']
I think you overdo it on the "exclusive" part. I think MD is exclusive only because it takes a smart person to play this game. Well, play this game and succeed, I should say. The veterans that I know (because to some degree I consider myself a veteran) are all intelligent people, and have earned their place in this game.[/quote]

no, no. read above as Mur said, he himself admits he made this game kinda elitist. exclusivity has its draws you know. more than that, i have always felt in the beginning that Mur put these filters in the game because he is searching for specific kinds of players. the problem lies in that filter too much and you don't get new blood. you don't get new blood and the game stagnates. YES. no matter how intelligent, creative, great the players are that passes all those filters, if you don't get new blood, the game will always stagnate.
also, smarts isn't the greatest filter in this game but patience. you may not be as smart as some, but if you are patient, you will last longer in this game.

you see, it's not about just being friendlier only when you ask for it, pm someone, ask for help. NO! the game has to be friendlier at DEFAULT. there is still a difference between being newb-friendly and idiot-friendly is there? you can filter out the idiots without filtering all the newbs out there. get what i mean?

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='19 July 2009 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1247939018' post='37421']
That was my problem since the beginning of MD and still is ... the choice if to make ti more commercial and get BIG or to keep it exclusive and special.[/quote]

yes. exactly my question. and hey, it's no business of mine if you want it to stay exclusive and not commercial. i'm just pointing out that there must be a way to get it both ways. best of 2 worlds, you know. you can build an entire world where commercial players know nothing about and only those who pass the filters get to see.

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='19 July 2009 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1247939018' post='37421']
I worked to much on elitist features, even now for example, i am working on the Black Letters, a series of 15 letters that will be sent out to 15 players ... now imagine how elitist is that if not even all rpcs get those.[/quote]

yes! 15 players that will be sought after! 15 players that may make or break the quest. that's exactlt what i'm talking about. too much power given out to players that could make or break the game. hey, this 15 people can do ask anything they want from other players just to grant knowledge of those letters. seriously, can i play this game without being ultimate slaves to other players? like what do i need to do to get that quest? do a lap dance or show myself eating poop on a video to an RPC to fulfill the quest?

POWER, my dear Mur. POWER! it's the problem you create when you give these sort of things to players (yes, players and not employees or GMs of your game). it goes to the head of those players and before you know it, they are thinking up quests that are so exotically difficult sometimes no one even solves them. what the heck? i came here to enjoy the game and get a relaxing time off work. i didn't come here to be ordered around and work some more!

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='19 July 2009 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1247939018' post='37421']
Its wrong, true.. but i do it because i enjoy it and the reason you have MD and enjoy it is because i did only the things i enjoyed to do, so i can not make promises that things will get less elitist around here, even if i realise i should make it more easy at the beginning with the regular npc grinding and hardcoded ladder quests ... like any other old fashioned rpg.[/quote]

i know, and i understand. i'm not really looking for grinding here in MD. there are millions of other games out there that give out grinding. but ladderr quests, i believe, is something you need to put in MD. it will solve a lot of problems, most of all give players a reason not to quit. ladder quests are what gives players the feeling of progress. without those, frustration will set in esp if all the quest they can find are ALL player-made and they're ALL extremely difficult, and they're ALL required to get the secret stuff and all the goodies.

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='19 July 2009 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1247939018' post='37421']
All games i played grow in only one direction .. "serial" ... but .. i had a dream before starting MD..to have a "game" grow also in "parallel". For example you read a book, that story grows serial, only in one direction, but what if a book had 1000 versions or branches to it..

People enjoy serial growing of stories and game, they enjoy to gain more and more stats and get deeper in their adventure, even if they realise their adventure has only one way of expanding. Even if you have options to pick skill branches or guilds, its still serial evolution. This type of evolution makes money, all business do it, but its no true adventure behind it. I like adventures that give you total freedom but freedom is not free :) you have to work for it. RPC are more free than a new player, freedom, of choice, of action, this is the trade. There are two ways to be tottaly free, either tottaly smart or tottaly ignorant , ignorant people are "free" to leave.
[/quote]

that's also been my dream ever since. to play a game that you can make without being led through the story. all RPG games up till now have storylines - and no matter how many options for story branches game developers put in it, they are all still options those game developers made. they are not your choices. so what if you didn't wanna save the princess or kill that ogre? what if all you wanna do is sit around and study magic?

your game is in the right direction Mur. but if you wanna build a world, you will need to expand. and for you to expand, you will need players. lots of them. and you will need to give them the freedom to explore your world and give them choices other than creature collecting and battles.

i think you started off wrong when you filtered out first before expanding. i would've gone about it in the opposite direction. grow the world and when it's as big as i want it to be, start putting in filters slowly one by one. those who pass it go on to a different phase in the game unknown to others. those who don't are happy in their ignorance. as long as they don't know they're missing out on something, they will stay contented with what they have found. and it goes like that. those who don't pass the filters don't know that there's a secret world like Loreroot or Golemus or Necrovion. they go on happily roaming MD thinking the land they've explored is all there is.

i still have too much to say but i'll say it some other time. i'll let others post in here what they think, and also wait for your reply.

Edited by Harion

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do you think this game is THAT linear, Harion?
that it's about finding all the stuff that hidden and getting all 'the goodies'?

you don't need those to advance, you don't need them for your role-play, you don't need them to show off with, what are they good for?

there is no goal, there is no high-score, there is no 'end of game' you can reach...

and personally, i don't see where hardcoded ladder-quests would take the game to, now it's neverending, but what happens if you are on top of the ladder-thingie? 'Congrats, you beat the game and wasted 267 days of your life!'?
or do you then go on with the RPC-quests until you beat them all?

i can not yet see the value of such ladders, nor of opening certain lands only to certain people... that's even more elitism than the RPC-quests imo :/

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I believe a game as complex and versatil as Magic Duel migh work quite well with a bit more commercial aproach without harming its autenticity. It will help bringing new people and will also keep its veteran players online.

K Edited by Kriskah Arcanu

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[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='18 July 2009 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1247931150' post='37405']
Something does need to change with these quests. I had a quest that was completed by three people on my hate page. The quest was to write me an essay on the behavioral patterns of knators, or the social hierarchy of the knators. Perhaps this quest was to hard for most people or noone knew about it. I think that more people should have the ability to makes quests, not reward them, but to have a quest page. In order to get the quest activated the player needs to get the quest approved by an rpc. This will allow many more quests, and a way to control the quality that comes from them.
[/quote]
There are a lot of quests that few people know about. Every now and then I 'hunt' for quests to do and read hatelists and quest pages to see if there's anything new, but I never noticed yours. It would be a bit easier if everybody got a quest paper and it would finally allow me to stop using the hate paper for quests. I do not think there should be a manual verification of who gets the paper and who doesn't. If there is a need for distinction, it can easily be done by changing the color of the quest paper icon. There's brown and gold icons and it should be possible to code that non RPCs get a brown quest document icon and RPCs get a gold one. And if for some reason you need more levels, silver seems like a logical third color.

In the past there were attempts at listing all available quests on the forum, but it doesn't seem to work. Perhaps this should be automated as well. If everybody has a quest paper, it should be possible to keep a log of when that page was last edited and make that list available somewhere in the game. Of course there should be an option to make small edits would getting to the top of the list, but that is but a matter of making a check box for small/big edits. Maybe an option to have a comment next to the edit date too, svn style.


[quote name='Harion' date='19 July 2009 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1247988577' post='37456']
yes! 15 players that will be sought after! 15 players that may make or break the quest. that's exactly what I'm talking about. too much power given out to players that could make or break the game. hey, this 15 people can do ask anything they want from other players just to grant knowledge of those letters. seriously, can i play this game without being ultimate slaves to other players? like what do i need to do to get that quest?
[/quote]
There are nice and power crazy people, good and bad quests. It is your choice to try a quest or to ignore it. Of course it is annoying to be unable to even begin a quest, but this will happen to other people too. A lot of quests reward the first player to solve it. Sometimes they get solved before you are online to read the description... You can still solve it for fun, without the reward. Perhaps you can laugh at the 'chosen' people when they are having a hard time. eg Marvolo's current quest is a very nice game theory experiment.


[quote name='Burns' date='19 July 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1247992330' post='37459']
there is no goal, there is no high-score, there is no 'end of game' you can reach...

and personally, i don't see where hardcoded ladder-quests would take the game to, now it's never ending, but what happens if you are on top of the ladder-thingie? 'Congrats, you beat the game and wasted 267 days of your life!'?
or do you then go on with the RPC-quests until you beat them all?
[/quote]
I think the use of more ladder-quests is to keep people occupied long enough for them to understand that there is no goal. How many games are there that don't have a goal? The only ones that come to mind are dwarf fortress and all the sim and tycoon things. It can take a bit of time to adapt.

PS dwarf fortress is cool, but even though the ascii art is outdated it still manages to slow down on a dual core once you get a decent amount of livestock :(

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regarding quests:
there is a forum thread for quests. please use it. or make a seperate one for 'normal' player quests. it doesn't always have to be a spell doc or wp reward, sometimes you just want a quest for the challenge and the fun of it, or to get a PL entry that you solved the quest, as a visible mark of achievement :(

i can see how environment-integrated quests can be very motivating, i was thrilled to bits when i first unlocked marind bell underground back then (... i suddenly feel old):P while player created quests are the true joy and come in enormous diversity, integrated quests can definately help getting deeper into MD.

as for the elitism:
there is the livehelp button, there are LHO members at nearly all new-player-places, there are always lots of friendly and helpful people around. just because you have to think a bit to get into it and solve the initial challenges doesn't make it elitist. just because most people playing MD are pretty smart doesn't mean there's a 'better than thou' attitude (elitism sounds like it's implying that). finally, it's a lot more satifying to solve a comparably tough challenge ;)

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[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='19 July 2009 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1247931150' post='37405']
Sure I admit I don't do quests. Most of them are retarded. Like "get me ten adepts and five protectors and you can have my spell doc"

...I think that more people should have the ability to makes quests, not reward them, but to have a quest page. In order to get the quest activated the player needs to get the quest apprOved by an rpc. This will allow many more quests, and a way to control the quality that comes from them.
[/quote]

2 things you pointed out which i agree with. first, i think making quests that benefits the questmaker should be prohibited. next, controlling quality of quests. oh, we have that voting option, "did you like quests made by this player?"

but it's too unscientific and too bias-prone. if you had a grudge with that player or just doesn't like the player, you can vote negatively. as it is now, quests are not quality driven. it should be. and quality quests that are repeatable and non-expiring should be given due by putting them as a main part of the game (like berserker's puzzle). that's also how you get your ladder quests, Mur.

current problem of quests: no page for it for everyone. starting and ending quests is not integrated into the game i don't mean the quest itself but only joining one. like, on the quest page a button can be clicked to start the quest and then a new page opens up for the quest to be read. starting the quest should automatically list it on your "ongoing quests list" which should also be coded into the game (currently, we have no way of tracking our quests except by writing it down on the notes page) likewise, a button to quit the quest should also be added. coding this kind of quest system into the game also allows quest creators to track players doing their quests. we also may do away with those: send me a pm if you want to do this quest and instead have it automated. anyone who wants to start the quest get the info they need by clicking the start button. filtering players that can do the quests can also be done.

now, on grading quests. first grade by difficulty, then by votes of how enjoyable it is on a scale of 1-5, then lastly ask those who did the quest whether it is worthy of being part of the game, just okay enough to stay on the quest page, or too bad the creator should lose points for it (yeah a point system on quest creation. gain more points to get better rewards to give out)

grading difficulty should be automated by tracking how many ppl were able to complete it or until how far they got. this can be coded right into the quest page. after players complete a quest, they are asked to rate it on a scale of 1-5, 1 being the lowest and 5 being the most enjoyable. if players quit on a quest, it is automatically rated 1.

ps. sorry i got so detailed on this but this is one part of MD i feel strongly about. it's the one part of MD that makes it so different from other games it just makes me sad it isn't improved to make it better.

i'd like to reply to all posts, rebut others but for now this will be all i have to say. i'll gather my thoughts for a while, wait for more to comment and see what many others think of what is said in this thread.

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i'm purposely only reading and not commenting on this thread, because i'd write an essay which wouldnt decide either way on various things

one thing i would like to pick up on Harion, is why if someone quits a quest it would be rated as 1? that would indicate it was a bad quest when it could be a good quest but the player either couldnt be bothered to do it or just gave up trying

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[quote name='Harion' date='19 July 2009 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1248026606' post='37483']
starting and ending quests is not integrated into the game i don't mean the quest itself but only joining one. like, on the quest page a button can be clicked to start the quest and then a new page opens up for the quest to be read. starting the quest should automatically list it on your "ongoing quests list" which should also be coded into the game (currently, we have no way of tracking our quests except by writing it down on the notes page) likewise, a button to quit the quest should also be added. coding this kind of quest system into the game also allows quest creators to track players doing their quests. we also may do away with those: send me a pm if you want to do this quest and instead have it automated. anyone who wants to start the quest get the info they need by clicking the start button. filtering players that can do the quests can also be done.[/quote]
I disagree. It is not too much work to keep track of which quests you are doing yourself, using memory or pen and paper. You'll need them if you want to solve some of the more difficult quests anyway. [b]IF[/b] a quest maker wants to keep track of who started his/her quest, the private mail method works for everybody. The update does not work for everybody for ladder quests because you'd naturally use the RPC items to track quest progress. Tracking can be useful in experimenting with quest design, but then you would really want to track it from beginning to end and not just get the success rate. Obviously if you don't want to track anything there is no need for a pm nor a button at all.
Furthermore an 'ongoing quest list' would, in my opinion, break roleplay immersion. My characters' primary ongoing quest is to survive. Next on his agenda are having fun and thwarting an evil conspiracy. There are already people that refer to their papers like their character is walking around and handing people they never met nor know if they are literate, a copy of their diary. If we add an ongoing quest list, people will refer to it in character, while most quests are out of character, unless you are roleplaying a time loop where different people happen to intercept the same coded message and solve it in the same way the previous group did.
I do not know much about the MD code, but programming what you suggested seems like a lot of work compared to what I suggested. The ideas aren't mutually exclusive so this isn't the most weighty argument. And the necessary code for the ongoing quest list gets even more complicated if one player has multiple quests running at the same time (there are at least 2 RPCs doing this). The cleanest programming solution I can think of would largely favor giving only RPCs the ability to make quests that can appear on your ongoing list. (The reasons are security and overhead.) This would make quest-making even more exclusive.

As for voting and commenting on quest quality: the only ones who might know enough about a quest are the ones that actually finished it. If I heard correct, getting a dozen people to try your quest is considered a success for an unadvertised 'fun' quest. If people only bother going after rewards their comment on a quest will be plain: 'yay I got it' or 'booh the reward isn't good enough.'

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There is a way to grade quests.
If you finished a quest and you received a WP for it you have the option to grade that quest (it is not functional at the moment but I think it will be pretty soon).

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i think wp will change md quite a lot. i don't want to tell stories about waht things are in work now, to much talking leaves to little time to actualy put those things up. Basic ideea is that the the trade value is worthy enough, then the game can be both commercial and special. In this case the trade value is the ability to make quests given a limited number of tools. Make those quests, use YOUR achievements as rewards, then who solves them deserves a chance to get one step further on the ladder. THis type of ladder is not about stats, will ot destroy the game turning it into what all other games are and will break the current elitism too, allowing anyone smart enough to gain rpc powers. Its a long way ahead, but the biggest step, the wish shop, is done.

I should probably increase the work speed, but when i get so excited about new stuff i tend to do more new stuff and miss to finish the "new stuff" that is allready in progress, so NO i don;t want any more good ideas :(

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