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Amoran Kalamanira Kol

First election results

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on the personal part: [spoiler]we are also 'a banner for those of likewise mind to gather under', and we were not satisfied with Raven, that's why we did it, not for reason number 1 :D
[/spoiler]
and now you are really confusing me:
While some said that the HC was ruling body of all lorerootian allies and guilds, you say it's the governing body of GotR, as which is was accepted all along, no matter how it is chosen...

but when it 'expands' to all other allies, and starts to rule over things that are not its purpose, like making decisions for other leaders, deciding over what happens in the land instead of in the ally and whatever else the HC is trying to take a hold off, that's a totally different case and has to be handled in a different manner...

at least in my opinion ^^

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[quote name='Burns' post='32148' date='May 24 2009, 06:56 PM']on the personal part: [spoiler]we are also 'a banner for those of likewise mind to gather under', and we were not satisfied with Raven, that's why we did it, not for reason number 1 :D
[/spoiler][/quote]
Ah, yes. I had asked this a few time on the war topic as well.. Why did GG decide to declare war on Loreroot, instead of at Raven then? --a

So yeah, I think Tarq has already mentioned this somewhere, but I'll clarify things again. Tarquinus and Savel made the Children of the Eclipse and the Savelites a part of the Guardians of the Root Alliance, long before it was given its own flag/logo/whatever you call it. A 'guild' was the chosen term. The one with the tree symbol, is also considered a guild, part of one alliance named the Guardians of the Root. While the CoE and Savelites have received their own flag/logo/whatever, we still consider ourselves as one. The HC is the governing body for that big alliance (to avoid confusion, let's call it the Treefolk Bunch for the moment). So the Treefolk Bunch never stepped into other alliances or making decision for other leaders (what, the savelites case?). It merely was dealing with the Treefolk Bunch Alliance's internal matters. If anyone forget, Savelfuser is a member of the Treefolk Bunch's HC. I guess the problem was people started making assumptions based on other assumptions without clarifying it first --a.

Edit: oh, forgot to add. No, the HC is not the ruling body of all lorerootian allies and guilds. It is the ruling body of all the old Lorerootian allies and guilds (GotR, CoE, and savelites -- the Treefolk bunch), who chose to form the HC between themselves (again, if anyone forgets, savel and tarq was member of the HC). It is not the ruling body for the crafters guild, for example, because the crafters didn't choose be part of it. The HC offered Kragel to join the HC, but since kragel decided that the crafters as a guild will not mingle will politics, it is not part of the Treefolk Bunch and therefore not ruled by the HC.

Edited by Udgard

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how can Loukas then say that he would love to leave the council to do whatever tehy want and serve only the Eclipse, if they are the same? i could quote that, but i don't care to do so...

if they are in fact one ally, how comes that you are not acting as one? why did the savels do their own politics when they were in fact just a number of the GotR, how can CoE be organized as a seperate ally when they are the just another part of the GotR? why do you have different philosophies (pray to Savel/pray to the Root/pray to the Moon)?

the three Treefolks Bunches are are not one great bunch, but three different allies with different purposes and different leading structures (Council and democracy in GotR, Tarq and tyrany/some other fancy word describing the same thing for the CoE, spiritual leadership for Savelites), and if they do their things together, well, good enough, but if they start to decide who may call themselves a lorerootian and who may not, they are taking one step too far on matters that are NOT ally-matters, and that is exactly what i read from
[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=4009"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=4009[/url]
which says [quote]This voting is open[b][u] to ALL residents of the land of Loreroot[/u][/b], including the neutral Crafters if they desire to cast their votes*. To those not yet affiliated with a land, I offer encouragement to submit your name to one of our Censors, Mya Celestia or Gremlin, and indicate your desire to vote in this election.[/quote], going on saying that [quote]2. [u]Censors determine the size and constituency of the electorate[/u], and do not collect votes. The process of vote collection is simple, and has been explicitly stated.[/quote] which sums up to 'Mya and Gremlin have been given authority to decide who is and who isn't a lorerootian'!

so, even if you would like to argue that the Treefolk Bunch is just one ally with three logos, they are taking one step that's WAY out of any allies matters, but a crucial point of RP of people who might not even know about the HC becasue they don't care for politics/hate us all for dealing with that crap (see example of Aeo, and that's one of the few who doesn't like politics but has a forums acc, most anti-politics players don't create one)...

that is too much power for an ally/three allies that elects its rulers themselves imo, and has to be stopped before it starts... what would you say if we stated that all Golemus-related players have to either change their role or get our approval?

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They have different sub-purposes, true. That's why it is organized it as guilds, because each has its own niche. If it was a totally same purpose, there wouldn't have been a need for different guilds. Think of it as the united states, the governing body is the United States of America, but it has different states, right? Although we are one, we're letting each guild do its own activities as [i]daily matter[/i] concerns. The HC is not for telling its guilds what to do from A to Z.

The voting is open to all residents of Loreroot, so? It should not even be open to anyone outside the alliance! But those people organizing the election thought it would be good to put into consideration what others want to say, so what's wrong with that? They're being generous for God's sake. And when it comes to determining whose voice they consider trustworthy enough (not just some new alt made by people, or those that has never shown themselves to love loreroot who suddenly claim so), for an election of their alliance, they do have the right to determine who they think is Lorerootian enough from their point of view. After all, it is for their election (size of the [u]electorate[/u]). They are not saying who may or may not call themselves a Lorerootian, but for [u]their election[/u], they do have the right to determine who they would view as Lorerootian. If the election had been for the rulership of the land, then your argument will hold true in every aspect. However, what happened was their (should have been)private election, which those people organizing the election have (generously) expanded to include outside opinions. In my opinion, it was not even necessary, but since they have done it, it's no reason to condemn them for choosing who they believe as true Lorerootians when it was their own election that was held.

So if it were a bunch of researchers electing their leader, they were kindly asking other researchers that were stationed in antartica who they think would be the best leader for them, and it would be up to them to determine who they trust enough to consider their opinion (only in this case, they not just consider the opinion, but even went as far as planning to include their vote).

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Karak has released the results of the election for the Speaker of the Law, and as he is prevented by a "wall of fire" from posting it herein, he has asked me to post it for him:

[quote]Final votes:

Total votes received: 12 ( rather disappointing from a population of 40+?)

Vote Tally:
Gremlin: 6
Lady Renata: 1
Siala Lone Wolf: 2
Mya Celestia: 2
Sparrhawk: 1[/quote]
As you can see, Gremlin is the clear winner.

On a tangential note, I would like to thank:
[list=1]
[*] Everyone who posted on this thread, including our fiercest critics, for honest dialogue and thought-provoking debate;
[*] Udgard, for his spirited and unsolicited defense of our process;
[*] Everyone who identifies him- or herself as a citizen, denizen, or friend of Loreroot for the support we have received.
[/list]
The MagicDuel community at large may be interested (or, as is the case for many, bored) to know that this discussion has caused Loreroot's alliances to review the purpose of the High Council and its effectiveness as a body. While we have not yet reached a collective decision, this discussion has caused us to think critically about our traditions and ask ourselves why we have done the things we have done, and whether or not we should continue doing them. People of MagicDuel, I salute you.

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