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Shadowseeker

Stolen Artwork?!

Did Fenrir Greycloth cheat and should get severe punishment?  

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Adding some forum screenies of fenrir actually viewing this topic, appearanty he doesn't want to reply.

Which leads me to thinking that he has nothing to say on the matter, if he had made the art he would've been insulted. Add the above evidence to that... Well, let's just say I'm not surprised by the 30 yes votes and 0 no ones.

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[quote name='Tzaroth747' post='30725' date='May 10 2009, 08:51 AM']Account deletion, IP ban. MD doesn't need people like him in the community.[/quote]

Agreed

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2007-02-17 21:30:16 that's before i'd even joined, like well before and i'm an oldie

actually, 14 April 2007 was when the game was released to the public....so i somehow doubt Fenrir had a vision of the future and made the drawing for this game, and then the drawing was stolen by Rachel Kremer, which is the only other possibility to him not stealing the drawing that i see

By [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor"]Occam's razor[/url], Fenrir is guilty in human courts as well as our own do what you will with him

and the fact that he's been seen viewing this topic and not made a responce to it just confounds his guilt even more

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Behold, final proof.

I have the permission of Rachel to post the e-mails and to boot, she gave me a very high res scan of the picture in question.
Fenrir would be incapable of giving such a high res picture.

Below are the e-mails, but be warned, they are in dutch.
I could translate them tomorrow, but, I am tired and if someone hasn't done it by tomorrow midday, I will, so don't worry :P
_____________________________________________
From: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
To: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
Subject: Gestolen artwork op MagicDuel
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 14:31:04 +0200


Hey 'Metal Bunny',

Sorry dat ik jou hier over mail, maar ik kan niet op het forum van MagicDuel posten voordat ik me heb aangemeld, en daar had ik niet heel veel zin in. ;-)

Ik kreeg een melding van iemand via Elfwood dat ene Fenrir Greycloth mogelijk artwork van mij had gestolen. Om precies te zijn deze plaat: [url="http://www.elfwood.com/~rachelkremer/Druid_sketch.3140297.html"]http://www.elfwood.com/~rachelkremer/Druid...ch.3140297.html[/url]

Ik heb MagicDuel zelf gekeken maar kon het eigenlijk niet terugvinden. Of is het onderhand al verwijderd? Maar goed, ik wil wel even bevestigen dat dit mijn werk is. Ik wil de persoon in kwestie er ook nog wel graag op aan spreken, maar dan moet ik wel weten waar het precies staat. Heb jij een link waar 'zijn' zogenaamde werk te vinden is? Zijn mailadres heb ik wel al namelijk.

Alvast bedankt!
Groeten,
Rachel

---
Rachel Kremer
[url="http://www.rachelkremer.nl"]http://www.rachelkremer.nl[/url]

_____________________________________________
From: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
To: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
Subject: RE: Gestolen artwork op MagicDuel
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:17:16 +0000

Hey Rachel

Noem mij maar gerust Michael als dat fijner is. Metal Bunny mag ook. Ja het is inderdaad een beetje moeilijk om de dingen te vinden als je geen lid bent van het forum of van het spel zelf.
Maar wees gerust, wij willen hetzelfde als jij. Onder geen enkele omstandigheden tolereren wij diefstal, plagiaat en/of dergelijke.
Het spel is aardig uniek (niet een verkooppraatje :P), het geeft de mensen de mogelijkheid hun eigen creative ideeën toe te voegen.
De speler met de alias "Fenrir Greycloth" heeft verscheidene tekeningen toegevoegd aan het spel, daaronder ook jouw creative kunstwerken. Deze tekeningen worden verkocht in het spel zelf en dan toegevoegd aan een unieke speler. Aangezien wij niet weten welke speler het is die het gekocht heeft (maar daar kunnen wij wel achter komen) weten we niet precies waar we jouw werk kunnen vinden.
Maar, we houden wel bij wie wat heeft gemaakt en wanneer, precies om dit soort dingen te voorkomen.

Nu wij weten dat tenmiste een artwork zeker weten niet van hem is, kunnen we verdere sancties op hem leggen. Te beginnen met het verwijderen van al jouw werk op de site, alsmede enige beloning die hij daarvoor heeft gekregen. Echter, dit kan lang gaan duren aangezien internet copyright moeilijk te bewijzen is.
We vragen daarom om een scan van die tekening te maken en daarbij iets persoonlijks te doen, waarbij het duidelijk is dat het originele artwork ook materieel van jouw is.
Dit is natuurlijk niet nodig en we begrijpen het als je dit niet kan doen, vanwege commisiewerk of gebrek aan materiaal of dergelijke.
Begrijp me niet verkeerd, hij is overduidelijk schuldig in onze ogen, het bewijs materiaal komt echter maar langzaam op gang.

Ik wil graag eindigen met een dankjewel en vraag om toestemming om jouw e-mail te mogen plaatsen op het forum voor grotere verheldering voor de andere leden.
Het spijt ons ten zeerste dat er een dief is ons spel die het verziekt door jouw werk te stelen en gebruiken.
Graag horen wij van u,

Michael Tai, "Metal Bunny"
Moderator Magicduel.com
_____________________________________________
From: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
Sent: Sun 5/10/09 9:03 PM
To: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
1 attachment
2D-druid.jpg (2.3 MB)

Hoi Michael,

Ik wist alleen je username van het forum, vandaar! Bij deze Michael dan! Je mag van mij de e-mail overigens wel plaatsen ter ondersteuning, geen probleem. Interessant concept trouwens, MagicDuel, een wereld creëren met user-based content, erg gaaf als het ook daadwerkelijk werkt in praktijk. :-)

Als 'bewijs' dat het daadwerkelijk mijn werk is heb ik een scan van het origineel bijgeleverd. Dit is van vele malen hogere kwaliteit dan dat Fenrir Greycloth kan hebben of aanleveren in zijn verdediging, dit lijkt mij bewijs genoeg. Het is voor mij maar een oude schets en ik voel er weinig voor om allerlei oude archiefmappen te ontstoffen om die schets weer tevoorschijn te toveren. Ik heb er overigens geen problemen mee dat deze schets gebruikt wordt op MagicDuel, als dan mijn naam maar ergens vermeld wordt. Ik vind het wel leuk om bij te dragen aan een dergelijk creatief project.

Sterkte met het afhandelen van dit probleem en laat me maar weten hoe het afloopt!

Groeten,
Rachel

---
Rachel Kremer
[url="http://www.rachelkremer.nl"]http://www.rachelkremer.nl[/url]
_____________________________________________

Btw, I said I was a moderator from Magicduel.com, because I had no idea how I would have to profile myself otherwise :D
Hope no one is mad...

**edit**
Sorry, lol, the .jpg file is 2,3MB and max upload is 2MB.
So I had to upload it to photobucket.
Behold! :D
[img]http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu358/Ma7ich/2D-druid.jpg[/img]


[color="#0000FF"][b]EDIT By Chewett: I removed the emails for spam purposes. Contact MB if you want the email address[/b][/color]

Edited by Chewett

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Uh, well, I guess you can't really zoom in on the druid, but trust me, with the original .jpg file you can zoom in a lot and actually see almost every single handstroke and detail.
If you want, I could send the file via e-mail, to whomever wants it.

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I am able to decipher enough of the mail to say that it looks authentic...not like I doubted anyways.

So, I guess we'd now need any of the admins to take action because of this.

EDIT: To be honest I didn't think the process of proving it would be that fast, since finding artworks on the scattered net is not easy at all.^^" I'd say great job to everyone who helped with this. Edited by Shadowseeker

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Ok , i get the "picture"
Thank you for your excelent investigation and reaction to this


This is the punishment i decided, but its possible it will do more if i find he tried to ensure his "wealth" in the realm by migrating to an other account or abusing things on the last moment.


#3 month prison with the mention that once he is out his "crime" will be forgotten. This punishment however will count if he will do other mistakes later.

#permanent ban from the artisans guild and denied to submit anymore artworks from now on ever.

#none of his pending artworks even those that might be original, wont be used nor payed for.

#an aditional penalisation will be decided after talking to glordamar about what advantages or rewards could be taken off from his previous involvement, at this moment i don't have a clear list in front of me



The reason for just 3month and not permanent ban and the specified mention is that he didnt vandalised anything, he lied and cheated but with the intent to help. I know him as a good person with potential to evolve. Its not as bad as stealing creatures or trying to destroy everything you can. I hate plagiarism very VERY much, so i consider this a very mild punishment...im not sure why just that, but if he turns on the right track its allright. I also consider his actions not based on bad intend but on excitement to show off with nice artworks.



THIS WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED A DEFAULT PUNISHMENT FOR SUCH SITUATIONS. IN FACT, IF THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN I WILL MAKE SURE THE PUNISHMENT WILL BE MUCH MUCH WORSE.

After the demo account theft, some people thought thats the default punishment so they thought if they steal 5 creatures instead of 3 they will get penalised with 3 so they gain 2, what a stupid thing to think. I will allways increase punishments for same crimes, its like with bugs, those that discover them are not punished and even let to abuse them for a little while, the next one are punished mildly, but the next one are hunted down like wild chickens.

I am sorry to see such things happen, but i am happy they were discovered in time and that you handeled it and i didnt had to do this myself.

p.s. anybody counts? is this the 3rd trial? or 4th? not sure but it would be interesting to count :D

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[b]No punisment IMHO[/b]

Let him say what he can say. Do not burn his house before he came from the job.

We all were tempted! be gentle with a wicker one that you.(if he was!) [b]A public trial is not a right one.[/b]
I do not know who takes decisions, but the main goal is to keep him here and help him pass over a huuge mistake (or resist this atack!)

I am afraid he's gonna die before gettin to prison.

I do not vote! I should vote 3 statements with one vote??????????? Edited by GgSeverin

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i agree with Mur's punishment but i think 2 more things should be added

1st, a public apology complete with apologies to all artists he stole from
(and this letter should be sent to all of them)
and a disclaimer that MD is not responsible for any copyright infringement he may have done
and a categorical admission that he alone should be held responsible
this letter should also contain a valid id and signature completely tying up the document to his real person
(if he does this, i believe the prison sentence should be lessened)

2nd if he refuses to produce said document, a RL case should be brought against him

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Ok, yes, most of the pictures were taken from other people. A few of them I did have permission from the artists, with others pending from the artists, so I figured that I could use them until then. The fact that I CAN draw and that these were better does not help me any, it makes me look lazy and a cheat. However, my intentions were to give the players amazing avatars.

With my heavy work load, full time job/ school/ and military training during the weekends, I didn't have the time I needed to draw. It is a shame that you all thought I needed such a harsh punishment. Especially you, Shadowseeker. I am not quite sure what I did to deserve your guys hatred, yes, I "stole" but I have permission from a few of the artists that drew them(including my roommate) that I could use them. Not all, admittedly(I have not had responses from a few of them). I did claim them as my own, so that others may show a more favorable light onto me, but that is just human vanity. If none of them wish to be used, so be it. I understand.

I do feel ashamed that I did lie, but it was with good intentions. Much better than stealing for personal profit. I did not find out that I would be rewarded with credits until a few weeks after I started. I guess I will see you all in three months.

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You had permission from the artists to submit their art as your own? :D
As I recall you wanted to open a market of avatars too. Did you had their permission to do so too?

I appologize. I dont want to attak who is already down, it is not my intention to do so, but I believe these are valid questions.

K

Edited by Kriskah Arcanu

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If you'll be here in 3 months your tougher than quite a few. The right way is hard sometime; Easy jailhood!

By the way:
King Manu, what do I have to do to be locked on with sage woman in the same cell 3 months??

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i do think that this punishment should be limited to the jailtime and the things i said in the previous post. Thats why i said after the jailtime the crime should be forgotten.

i think this subject can be closed now, no need to hit him more, both him and you all understood the situation and decision is final.

btw, if i find any of your alts getting pride that you can play anyway if your main char is in jail i will ban them too. I wont "search and destroy" them, but do not tempt me..and i have many ears and eyes.


If this jailtime will "kill" you or if it will strengthen you, thats a test that no one knows the answer yet.

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[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' post='30819' date='May 11 2009, 12:45 PM']I do feel ashamed that I did lie, but it was with good intentions.[/quote]


The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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For those still wondering, I translated the emails. And yeah, it took some time but I had stuff to do at school.

_____________________________________________
From: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
To: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
Subject: Gestolen artwork op MagicDuel
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 14:31:04 +0200


Hey 'Metal Bunny', [i]you understand, right?[/i]

Sorry dat ik jou hier over mail, maar ik kan niet op het forum van MagicDuel posten voordat ik me heb aangemeld, en daar had ik niet heel veel zin in. ;-)
[i]Sorry that I am mailing you about this, but I can't post on the MD forum before I have signed up, and I didn't really feel like it[/i]
Ik kreeg een melding van iemand via Elfwood dat ene Fenrir Greycloth mogelijk artwork van mij had gestolen. Om precies te zijn deze plaat: [url="http://www.elfwood.com/~rachelkremer/Druid...ch.3140297.html"]http://www.elfwood.com/~rachelkremer/Druid...ch.3140297.html[/url]
[i]I got a report from someone via Elfwood that a Fenrir Greycloth possibly had stolen artwork from me. To be precise: enter link.[/i]
Ik heb MagicDuel zelf gekeken maar kon het eigenlijk niet terugvinden. Of is het onderhand al verwijderd? Maar goed, ik wil wel even bevestigen dat dit mijn werk is. Ik wil de persoon in kwestie er ook nog wel graag op aan spreken, maar dan moet ik wel weten waar het precies staat. Heb jij een link waar 'zijn' zogenaamde werk te vinden is? Zijn mailadres heb ik wel al namelijk.
[i]I have seen MD for myself, but I couldn't find it. Has it been removed by now? Anyway, I would like to confirm that it is my work. I want to address the person in question as well, but then I need to know where it is located exactly. Do you have a link where I could find 'his' so called work? Because I already have his email.[/i]

Alvast bedankt! (thanks in advance)
Groeten, (sez hi)
Rachel

---
Rachel Kremer
[url="http://www.rachelkremer.nl"]http://www.rachelkremer.nl[/url]

_____________________________________________
From: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
To: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
Subject: RE: Gestolen artwork op MagicDuel
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:17:16 +0000
(to lazy to translate my own email. Short version is that I say that it is indeed hard to find stuff if you haven't signed up. Then I try to comfort her that we under no circumstance tolerate theft/plagiarism, etc. I then give a quick creative point of view of the game and how people like Fenrir could benefit from adding their creative works or ideas. I then say that why it is hard to find the avatar, but that we will find out if found guilty. To be sure that he is guilty, I asked for a scan of it, that sort of proves it, either by being personal or by being ridiculously high-res. Go figure. I say that internet copyright is sometimes hard and slow to prove and that the scan would speed things up. I then thank her again for her cooperation and end with asking for her permission to post the email.)
Hey Rachel

Noem mij maar gerust Michael als dat fijner is. Metal Bunny mag ook. Ja het is inderdaad een beetje moeilijk om de dingen te vinden als je geen lid bent van het forum of van het spel zelf.
Maar wees gerust, wij willen hetzelfde als jij. Onder geen enkele omstandigheden tolereren wij diefstal, plagiaat en/of dergelijke.
Het spel is aardig uniek (niet een verkooppraatje blum.gif), het geeft de mensen de mogelijkheid hun eigen creative ideeën toe te voegen.
De speler met de alias "Fenrir Greycloth" heeft verscheidene tekeningen toegevoegd aan het spel, daaronder ook jouw creative kunstwerken. Deze tekeningen worden verkocht in het spel zelf en dan toegevoegd aan een unieke speler. Aangezien wij niet weten welke speler het is die het gekocht heeft (maar daar kunnen wij wel achter komen) weten we niet precies waar we jouw werk kunnen vinden.
Maar, we houden wel bij wie wat heeft gemaakt en wanneer, precies om dit soort dingen te voorkomen.

Nu wij weten dat tenmiste een artwork zeker weten niet van hem is, kunnen we verdere sancties op hem leggen. Te beginnen met het verwijderen van al jouw werk op de site, alsmede enige beloning die hij daarvoor heeft gekregen. Echter, dit kan lang gaan duren aangezien internet copyright moeilijk te bewijzen is.
We vragen daarom om een scan van die tekening te maken en daarbij iets persoonlijks te doen, waarbij het duidelijk is dat het originele artwork ook materieel van jouw is.
Dit is natuurlijk niet nodig en we begrijpen het als je dit niet kan doen, vanwege commisiewerk of gebrek aan materiaal of dergelijke.
Begrijp me niet verkeerd, hij is overduidelijk schuldig in onze ogen, het bewijs materiaal komt echter maar langzaam op gang.

Ik wil graag eindigen met een dankjewel en vraag om toestemming om jouw e-mail te mogen plaatsen op het forum voor grotere verheldering voor de andere leden.
Het spijt ons ten zeerste dat er een dief is ons spel die het verziekt door jouw werk te stelen en gebruiken.
Graag horen wij van u,

Michael Tai, "Metal Bunny"
Moderator Magicduel.com
_____________________________________________
From: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
Sent: Sun 5/10/09 9:03 PM
To: *REMOVED SEE BOTTOM
1 attachment
2D-druid.jpg (2.3 MB)

Hoi Michael, (durr..)

Ik wist alleen je username van het forum, vandaar! Bij deze Michael dan! Je mag van mij de e-mail overigens wel plaatsen ter ondersteuning, geen probleem. Interessant concept trouwens, MagicDuel, een wereld creëren met user-based content, erg gaaf als het ook daadwerkelijk werkt in praktijk. :-)
[i]I only knew your username of the forum. (she starts calling me michael after I gave her my name in the last email.) You have my permission to post the email for support, no problem. Nice concept btw, MD, creating a world with user-based content, very cool if it actually works.[/i]
Als 'bewijs' dat het daadwerkelijk mijn werk is heb ik een scan van het origineel bijgeleverd. Dit is van vele malen hogere kwaliteit dan dat Fenrir Greycloth kan hebben of aanleveren in zijn verdediging, dit lijkt mij bewijs genoeg. Het is voor mij maar een oude schets en ik voel er weinig voor om allerlei oude archiefmappen te ontstoffen om die schets weer tevoorschijn te toveren. Ik heb er overigens geen problemen mee dat deze schets gebruikt wordt op MagicDuel, als dan mijn naam maar ergens vermeld wordt. Ik vind het wel leuk om bij te dragen aan een dergelijk creatief project.
[i]As 'proof' that it is indeed my work I added a scan of the original. This is many times the quality than Fenrir could present in his defense, this seems evidence enough for me. It's an old sketch and I don't feel very motivated to dust off the old archivemaps and find the sketch again. Btw, I have no problem if this sketch is being used for MD, as long as my name is published somewhere. I think it's fun to contribute to such a creative project.[/i]
Sterkte met het afhandelen van dit probleem en laat me maar weten hoe het afloopt!
[i]good luck with handling this problem and let me know how it ends![/i]
Groeten,(sez hi)
Rachel

---
Rachel Kremer
[url="http://www.rachelkremer.nl"]http://www.rachelkremer.nl[/url]
_____________________________________________ Edited by Metal Bunny

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Frankly I'm disappointed and somewhat embarrassed. My initial reaction was to defend Fenrir until further evidence was compiled. It seems that's been done to a level I never would have thought possible. I wish I had been more shrewd in my evaluation of his abilities. I thought that given his artistic knowledge (which he does, indeed, have) that he was merely experimenting with different artistic styles... I suppose I was naive.

Fenrir, I realize that you may have had good intentions, but you actions could very well have damaged the game in a very real sense had not the community acted to protect itself. We are all busy and that's no excuse to steal the work of others. I often struggle to find the time to work on this game, but I produce everything on my own. It's okay, and often healthy, to borrow ideas and elements from the work of others, but to take their work and pass it off as your own is dishonest. As much as I'd like to see some of your own work and have the opportunity to work with you, this incident makes it impossible for me to trust that what I might receive from you in the future is your own work.

I believe Manu's punishment is just and perhaps even lenient. I hope you learn something from this.

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