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Yrthilian

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It seems to me that there was an election (or rather still is as it's not yet been tallied.) I assume that Yrthilian will have the good graces to wait until the outcome of the election is known. If he loses he ends up in jail, no one dies and GG gets what Yrthilian wants.

That being said, if there are good reasons that Raven should not be the leader, why would someone who does not want him as leader not make this information public while an election is taking place? Is killing everyone really better than letting them in on information about their own leader? Perhaps the information is sensitive in some other manner?

I do know that I seem to be coming down on Yrthilian (not that my opinion could possibly make a difference to this ordeal, I am after all not a "big boy"), but that is not at all what I mean to be doing. I'm just a little confused about this tight lip policy. Edited by Guybrush Threepwood

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ok a second post

i had ask Mur if i could reopen the Creators alliance it fits well with making items and will be a place for the creator council to speak also

this should in my thinking be a neutral alliance much like the artisans and archies because we serve all and in doing so belong to no one mans land thusly i would restate my neutrality and ask Mur if he would place the land for the creators as NML or MDA to help further reflect the neutral nature ... NML i think would make since because of the weapon shop being there and because of the fact it is the most truly neutral land in the game


so once again for the record I AM NEUTRAL

and i will wait til this war is over to invite anyone else into the alliance those being the ones who have creation powers

thanks again
The Neutral
Kragel
Your Metal Mage

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surely if yrthilian wants people to die for his war then they deserve to know the reasons.

for if he does not give a reason then he appears at best a power grabbing dictator, so far i have herd no reason therefore must assume that is the truth. should a good reason be forthcoming i will gladly change my tune.

also it has occured to me that this may be a bluff to sway the election in or out of raven's favour.

at the very least make the propoganda that is given out plausible for this is rubbish

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Based on what I have Read on this forumn topic and no other (including those refered to), and on no other information. The following are the stated facts relating to the outbreak and conditions of this war.
If a fact is incorrect, I will require a statement saying so from the original poster of the information, ALL OTHER OBJECTIONS WILL BE IGNORED.

> Yrthilian has declared war on Loreroot for many reasons, and has chossen to state only a few:
* Loreroot has become fragmented, and he doesn't believe the treaty will remain intact for much
longer
* Loreroot has become unstable, and Yrthilian does not believe Raven is the one to make things right
* Political defence of his more well known citizens (MRD). This is stated as the "Last Straw" event,
and therefor only a MINOR motivator
(Yrthilian's statement)

> It has been publicly announced that the advice of .Knator Commander. was denied and ignored, and
that great dishonour was visited upon him when he was requested to be demoted. As such, he has
retired from the service of Loreroot
(Muratus del Mur's statement)

> Yrthilian has declared that war will continue until one of two things occurs:
* Raven steps down
* Raven is assasinated
(Yrthilian's statement)

> While Yrthilian does not feel Raven is the right person to leader Loreroot, he feels they have many
potential leaders in their ranks
(Yrthilian's statement)

> Raven has declared that he will protect Loreroot from unnecesary bloodshed, and has stepped down
(Raven's statement)

> Raven tried to lead as best he can, and the image of a power hungry, selfish and self-centred ruler
he has been portraid as is inaccurate and unfair
(Raven's statement)

> Under Raven's leadership, the Loreroot alliance has begun to repair and restrengthen it's position
and unity
(Raven's statement, supported by others)

> The Loreroot alliance doesn't feel their land is fractured
(Collective statement)

> Many alliances refuse to join this conflict at this point
(Collective statement)

> Lady Ailith has asserted that the claims made by MRD were false. She has confirmed her role in the
affair, however has also publicly made a statement of regret and apology on the matter, and has
removed herself from any Alliance until further notice
(Lady Ailith's statement)

> Many people feel that war is not the best way of going about this, and alternatives have been
suggested:
* Cold War
* Further Mediation
* Regulated Arena fights between champions
* Fights between champions
(Collective statement)

> Guybrush Threepwood wonders if Golemus Golemicarum will wait for the results of the Election
before the attack commences
(Guybrush Threepwood's statement)

> The idea of an immediate attack to finish the issue was denied, giving Raven the oportunity to avoid
either assasination or execution IF he looses the war.
(Burn's statement)

> Golemus Golemicarum feels strong enough to finish this war in four minutes with a single warrior,
sooner without lag
(Burn's statement, not yet supported by Yrthilian)

----------

The following is purely conjecture based on what I have read in this topic.
THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY ACCURATE.
Edited by Kyphis the Bard

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[quote name='Burns' post='28582' date='Apr 10 2009, 04:35 PM']in my humble opinion, there was too much talking up to now and too little action...

don't you see what happend to the Savelites? Take a look at Gridos loyalty, you can't take over an ally with 330 loyalty, he had help from inside ;-)...CoE have kicked all members who are not supporting Raven enough to go to war for him, and see what's left of them...[/quote]
A specious assertion, but spurious in its logic. I dismissed the ranks of the Eclipse to avoid the same fate the Savelites suffered: and I have word that mine action caused the enemy some dismay.

Yet I find it cold comfort. I have become what I beheld and acted as dishonourably as my foes, who have now shewn there were no depth to which they will not sink. Very well for them to say, all were fair in war: but I know better. I am a man, and whatsoever honour I have left after dismissing some of my most loyal followers - including two of my most trusted priestesses - I shall take to my grave. I should not have acted as I did, ruled by fear and love of a symbol.

If any should take the Eclipse and demean it as Grido and his unscrupulous conspirators have done to the Savelites, all shall see that I am unbow'd. If any should carry a battle to Loreroot, all shall see that I am undaunted. [b]I am this land[/b], and it is I: we are one being. Kill me, if you can, for it shall take so much to silence my denunciation of thine aggression, a children's conflict o'er mere words. Edited by Tarquinus

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''I have word that mine action caused the enemy some dismay.''
errm, from who? i ask, not expecting an answer on that, but after the Savelites were taken over, I personally expected both CotE and GotR to clean ranks immediately, and that thought was shared with others who were planning, so yeah....dismay....not so much.

''Grido and his unscrupulous conspirators''
hmm nice, i take a defunct alliance and dont dissolve it immediately, and i'm unscrupulous....

and no comment was made about what i'm actually trying to do with it, which i'm sure Tarq knows, yay for one-sidedness.

i'm working to achieve a united and functional church once more.

*drops dead from sleep exhaustion*

EDIT: *pops awake for another second*
due to not wanting to get lynched (by either side), and for total honesty on my part, i am both Golemus AND Lorerootian, dispute my ability to be both what you will, but i am, and thats that

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I speak not for all of Loreroot or the High Council of the Guardians, however, I speak on my behalf and mine only. I support Grido. Many in Loreroot will challenge this decision, and if they do, they should meet with me to learn my reasons.

Loreroot, we should not be so quick to jump to conclusions about Grido or others. I know it's easy to jump to rash conclusions, but he has proven he's not out to destroy the alliance. If you ask me, he is trying to truly rebuild it. Perhaps we might take a moment to think and consider him to actually be attempting to unite something we ourselves could not...

There are bigger concerns that are coming to light. Concerns which mine eyes cannot perceive fully even in this current state.

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[quote name='Grido' post='28601' date='Apr 10 2009, 10:00 PM']''I have word that mine action caused the enemy some dismay.''
errm, from who? i ask, not expecting an answer on that, but after the Savelites were taken over, I personally expected both CotE and GotR to clean ranks immediately, and that thought was shared with others who were planning, so yeah....dismay....not so much.[/quote]
My dismissal occurred [b]prior[/b] to thy little stunt, Grido. Thou'rt well pleased with thyself, as I see, so let me disabuse thee: think not that I paid more attention to thee than the dismissive treatment thou didst receive without the Defensive Quarters. By that time, in troth, I had begun to re-invite my followers.

As to thy lack of scruple, Sieur, do not play the carnival fool and pretend thine interference in the Savelites' decline were anything but espionage of the lowest sort, and propaganda as well. Perchance someone believeth thee, somewhere.

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I am sad that this has come to this. A friend in one of the Golemus alliances gave me a good example about this: he says that loreroot is a house with roaches plaguing it. The neighbors are coming to warn the residents about it. That part's good.
But what is happening right now is more than that, the neighbors are threathening to BURN our house because the 'roaches' inside. This is OUR house, and OUR 'pest' (and one that cannot spread to other houses, at that). If people think that a problem inside our house is a valid reason for our neighbors to burn down our house... well, I believe everyone can judge just how right or wrong that is.

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[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' post='28593' date='Apr 10 2009, 07:29 PM']Second, Yrthilian's refusal to state further reasons for the war than those listed above shows his refusal to engage in slander to sway peoples opinion. He has chosen the most widely know of the major contributors to the declaration of war to justify it. If Yrthilian went around trying to sway people to his side through slander than he would be a very weak ruler, and fighting for the wrong reasons[/quote]

Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. (definition, we'll ignore the oral portion)

Are you meaning to imply that any other reasons that Yrthilian may have are fallacious? I do not personally believe that to be true. Perhaps you didn't actually mean slander, but I do find it difficult to believe that anyone could agree that telling a populace an important truth about their would be king would be a bad thing. Much less could I consider someone believing that killing that populace in war would be better than telling them the truth. While I agree that Yrthilian likely has reason to not make other reasons clear, I certainly hope that this is not it, for it would be foolishness itself.

I do however like your point on the puppet king. It would however be helpful to mention who he would not accept. No one wants this to start all over again. Edited by Guybrush Threepwood

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[quote]From the [i]Dao De Jin (Tao Te Chig)[/i] Chapter 31, Goddard's first translation.

Even successful arms, among all implements, are unblessed. All men come to detest them. Therefore the one who follows Dao does not rely on them. Arms are of all tools unblessed, they are not the implements of a wise man. Only as a last resort does he use them.

In propitious affairs the place of honor is the left, but in unpropitious affairs we honor the right.

Peace and quietude are esteemed by the wise man, and even when victorious he does not rejoice, because rejoicing over a victory is the same as rejoicing over the killing of men. If he rejoices over killing men, do you think he will ever really master the Empire?

The strong man while at home esteems the left as the place of honor, but when armed for war it is as though he esteems the right hand, the place of less honor. Thus a funeral ceremony is so arranged. The place of a subordinate army officer is also on the left and the place of his superior officer is on the right. The killing of men fills multitudes with sorrow; we lament with tears because of it, and rightly honor the victor as if he was attending a funeral ceremony.[/quote]
The existing king (Yrthilian) attacks a visible target (Raven) for his request to have similar status. He would hold the entire land, every player in the game, hostage to his narrow desire. In the process of attacking someone not an enemy of his land, he creates true enemies, Further he does not even target the right player(s). I once thought Yrthilian wise and temperate. Apparently I was mistaken,

Let us prepare of the funerals required to slake Yrthilian's unquenchable thirst. Let the musicians rehearse the funeral dirge.

Those old enough will remember a fellow who in 1939 said, "oh please, I only want this one tiny little country, you won't hardly notice and it's all I want." Only he wanted another and another and another...

Regardless of Raven's deficiencies, will Raven and Loreroot simply giving in to Yr will truly stop this? And regardless of how the next leaders of Loreroot will be chosen, will they they not still be GG's hostages? Who will Yr target next. He will say none other, but so did that funny little man with the mustache in 1939. When will it be your homeland's leaders that Yr decides to depose? Think what you will of Raven, but examine Yrthilian as closely.

I do not want this war, I have issues with the leaders the land I call home and which I have served, but the more I think of what Yr is doing the more I recall real world lessons. Appeasing bullies is a bad idea. It leads to long periods of appeasement and effective slavery to the bully. The bully wins because no one know what he wants or will attack next. Edited by Calyx of Isis

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[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' post='28607' date='Apr 11 2009, 01:59 PM']Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. (definition, we'll ignore the oral portion)

Are you meaning to imply that any other reasons that Yrthilian may have are fallacious? I do not personally believe that to be true. Perhaps you didn't actually mean slander, but I do find it difficult to believe that anyone could agree that telling a populace an important truth about their would be king would be a bad thing. Much less could I consider someone believing that killing that populace in war would be better than telling them the truth. While I agree that Yrthilian likely has reason to not make other reasons clear, I certainly hope that this is not it, for it would be foolishness itself.[/quote]

I agree with your definition, and also that slander is not the perfect word for the context, however I find myself unable to find a more appropriate one.

Moving on: The purpose was to state that some of the reasons that he may have for not feeling Raven had the ability to lead Loreroot may have been things that would be bad qualities in a leader, but not necessarily bad qualities in a person or player. Because of the nature of communication, almost anything you say about a person in one context can be twisted to fit a completly different context (ie Raven might loose respect from people who have no real reason to disrespect him, only a percieved one)
I was also pointing out that he uses the main points which everyone can understand, and that the other points may be either extremely complicated, or there may be an extremely large number of seemingly unimportant things that only mean something in the context they occured or from a Rulers perspective.

Everything about this war is about perspective and context.

Thankyou Guybrush Threepwood for your question, if anyone else would like to question or challenge my statement, I will be reading the forumn regularly (PM's on this matter will be IGNORED. All discussion with me will be public)

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[quote name='Yrthilian' post='28535' date='Apr 10 2009, 05:02 AM']My aim is to remove the current leader

You have the right people in your lands that can do the job better
and can organise the land better.

There are other i would not like to see fill that role but that will be a matter for
another time.[/quote]


[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' post='28593' date='Apr 11 2009, 09:29 AM']Third, Yrthilian's refusal to say who he would accept as Ruler of Loreroot is to prevent a puppet king from being established, something which Rhaegar Targaryen stated would be rejected. To do so would be the mark of a bully, and his "stubborn" refusal to state a prefered Ruler, other than that they not be an 'alt', shows him to want the Loreroot people to have a Ruler who has gained the position fairly[/quote]


Yrthilian's also said that there are others that he would not like to see to become the leader of loreroot . And it will be a matter when those he would not like to see DOES become the leader of loreroot . Then it will be war again until a leader that Yrthilian sees fit fills that position . So it might still be a puppet king for Yrthilian might keeps declaring war on loreroot until the person he sees fit became king .

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no...
Yrth does not want to see Raven in that position, and there are a few [VERY few] possible successors about whom Yrth is unsure concerning their leader qualities, and he'd like to see one of the good, strong leading figures in LR high chair at this critical point.

just a little side note: what makes you all think we want to get a whole population killed?

there's absolutely no need for attacking civilians, the following statement might sound a bit boastful, but it's true: we have fighters [and not just one of them] on our side who can take out every single lorerootian 'fighter' within 4 minutes, considering that there might be some huge lag during the attacks...
so there is absolutely no need to keep any lorerootian 'civilian' hostage or even kill some of them in order to make Raven step down...

We can do whatever we want to him at this point, and even though he might be young, he knows that much... we have enough willow's experience, don't we, Raven?^^

On late evening of Thursday, there were plans to get into loreroot at once and get done with it, definitely inspired by the guy Calyx was refering to, but Yrth wanted Raven to get enough time to make decisions of his own, that's the only reason why there is still war-talking and no post-war-arrangements...

EDIT: put in 'fighter' and 'civilian', as i found it confusing at a second glance... Edited by Burns

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Hmmm and nobody is thinking: if a king is weak we can't make a treaty with that territory..if there are fights inside the high council and if they are calling their people and the people are not listening why is everyone asking about reasons? How can Golemus have a Treaty of Peace and think at a arm in a bad time from Loreroot since Loreroot is not strong and capable of defending themselves. Stop crying for Loreroot as a victim of a war and start looking at this from a different point of view. Not everyone is bad and every bad has it's good, as light comes only with dark and sun with clouds.

Oh, and pls stop with the nonses of quoting paragraphs like those... or comparing a good and strong king with someone weak to it's desire. Why don't u think that Raven might become weak to it's desire of power that he asked ? Just start looking at all not only from 1 point of view

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I think the ones that Yrth doesnt want in are those with no diplomatic abilities in themselves, that perhaps, oh i dont know... threaten war themselves, like what happened when MRD posted the topic of Closing the Savelites... or that will continue in Raven's Vein, i could list names, but i think it would be wiser not to, although I would feel the same as Yrth on the subject.

I feel no remorse for Loreroot save for a few souls that have shown true remorse over this war, or that have apologised for past transgressions.

Lucius, you know you have my utmost respect in defending your land...

That being said I have my own reasons for being a part in this war.

People of Loreroot I am sorry that I am in the position I am in, but know that i will uphold my word that ~I~ have not, and will not commit piracy this war, although i danced with the idea. Ultimately I realised it would be best to keep my word, unlike a few i can mention...

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[quote name='Maxim' post='28615' date='Apr 11 2009, 04:32 PM']Yrthilian's also said that there are others that he would not like to see to become the leader of loreroot . And it will be a matter when those he would not like to see DOES become the leader of loreroot . Then it will be war again until a leader that Yrthilian sees fit fills that position . So it might still be a puppet king for Yrthilian might keeps declaring war on loreroot until the person he sees fit became king .[/quote]
The number he stated was three, as far as how many others he would not accept.

Redardless, I am more interested to hear more from Raven, as all of his statements so far have dealt with nothing.

In a war, if you do nothing but attack your enemy, then very soon you will find yourself surrounded and eliminated.
To win, you MUST have defense, and this analogy also extends to politics.

So far, from Raven, I have seen little evidence that he is making any attempt to deal with this issue. All I have seen is him burying his head in the sand, and while I doubt that thats all hes doing, [u]he needs to tell us otherwise[/u].

Raven's almost silence aside, Lucius Tarquinus Superbus' information has been most helpful, and once again I salute your braver and dedication. You have great honour, and my respect for that.

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[center]I seriously don't know how to start this post, how to phrase everything into words that is going on my mind at the moment. Facts that I have been blamed of being power hungry, that I’m being a puppet of King Bull [[i]I’m not going to say any of names but the one stating it should certainly feel like an idiot.[/i]], all those facts are really sad and pathetic. Today I have been also insulted [[i]Quote:”White Reaper: Fu*k you Raven”[/i]] and then I received pm that he hates me. I know quite some people hate me for some or that reason [[i]example: King Bull, Subzeroo etc.][/i]. Burns what you are talking about was expected from King Bull and as well White Reaper I knew they would try and backstab me, I even have chat logs [[i]And there is more, not only one.[/i]]. There are many more but this one is latest and was obviously what will happen. [[i]None of involved in chat gave me this.][/i]

... [/center]


Anyway everything started when Nelya started going inactive and along with her activity the activity of others and things that were done feel apart. Guardians were in this state for over two months before I have taken over, even after a bit of time when I was leader everything went a bit slow. I have cleaned alliance of few inactive people and started trying to rebuild alliance and it worked, even if only bit by bit people became a bit more active. Once chat was empty all the time and now it’s full again [[i]Not due to war.[/i]]. People didn’t talked a lot and did not express their opinion but they do now, communication has greatly improved even if there are still some tensions between few players in alliance and not everyone is working as a unit but everyone is aware of the fact that they are part of a unit. Forums became active again [[i]Not the one that Nelya made, but I created a new one[/i]], new suggestions and cooperation improved.

At some point I was asked to try and go for King of Loreroot, and so I did to now known title of Archon that I’m forced to resign from before I even got elected. I know I have support of those that are needed or maybe we shall see differently if Mur shall even bother counting votes and evaluating them after this post I made. Well I putted up a survey in which I asked everyone to tell their opinion on me as a King/Archon of Loreroot and it went quite good even in the public [I know some said no because of their role and I respect that] but I still should have enough of them.

Even Yrthilian would have nothing against me as a leader if I would become Archon [[i]Quote: Yrthilian: “but if you do become archon that is fine. I will still treat you as i do in game. I do respect you and have enjoyed working with you and i will also say you have been so far a good leader”][/i]. But at some point everything changed when MRD on MD forum putted a vote if Savelites should be closed down which in some way got Blackthorn really ticked of and led to quite few problems and eventually an excuse for these actions that are being taken. Before these happened I have taken over Savelites already and have consulted with their active members and none of them was against me/my alt having control as my wish was merely to give them some base to work on and then leave leadership to one of them but then White Reaper and King Bull came into play [[i]I’m not sure on this one but I have enough evidence that I can blame that invite on eigger.[/i]]. Anyway KB and WR [[i]they are friends in real life[/i]] took over alliance and kicked the rest of players that were actually active and kicked them out creating alliance just for their alts and left there to stagnate and after that when it came to this war was given over to GG members / Grido. So then we came to that childish argument between BT and MRD that was reason for war as well as that Yrthilian says there are “others” that wouldn’t like to see me as a leader [I guess those others are GG alliance/yrthilian] but lets move to the secret reason that even I don’t know of but only few does. Even Grido found it out only after almost over one day when war on us or more war on me was declared.

...


I still don’t see any point for me to resign but I’m forced to as Loreroot cannot stand a chance against force of GG since in war could be used only brute power which we don’t have enough especially not against MR’s ; use of magic and roleplay was rejected in war.
And as I can see this only as a bad end not only for Loreroot but everyone, whole community that would get damaged in the process and would greatly turn how game would be oriented even with Mur going for creating factions and I don’t think this would be any close to being good for game.


And then there are also people like this that have been removed out of alliance due to their attitude to others which I think can be clearly seen why. King Bull and Subzeroo also had a conversation regarding me and what they shall do against me soon after I kicked him out of alliance. But that is lesser point now.
[[i]Quote: Subzeroo:
“There should be no one with such huge amount of power, Especialy Raven ... rumors of MD world has it that he can come near Mur's powers ... If this will be alowed ... things will get ugly .... and this has been forseen from mid January 2009”][/i]

Anyway I don’t know what Mur will do regarding votes and what he will do because of me stepping down from position before there will be official election votes public, I might be sent to prison or just left alone tho I doubt that I’m ready to accept consequences of this in means for preventing pointless war and not only save Loreroot but also game community.

If someone still didn’t get the point. I’m stepping down as a leader of Loreroot. [[i]I know that is what you didn’t expect from power hungry and selfish leader right? Or maybe were you wrong?[/i]]

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Thankyou for posting your position Raven.
My post on [post="54"]Page 3[/post] has been edited, as has the 'conjecture' statement at the bottom of it. Edited by Kyphis the Bard

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we are known to be stat-farmers and showing off with our 'golden penisses'? :P

*takes a look at GG ally page*

oh well, there's just MB and me stat-farming in our ally...
and in the MRs, there's not that much farming, either XD

the real stat-farmers are spread to all winds these days, and any ally needs some of them for times of wars imo =)

and i like your spies, i was totally sure that nobody else was listening at that point... only idlers and people i trusted so far... so i must assume someone with the show-spell gave it to you :lol:
giving away private chats is not exactly a nice thing to do, but oh well, there were no sensitive infos other than 1. White doesn't like Raven, 2. I didn't know that before, and 3. I was surprised on how dedicated White was about that^^


EDIT: forgot my point because of all that chat-logs...

I hope that this action finishes the war before it starts, and i also hope that you won't be punished in any way... I'd love to see you at willow's again soon =D

Edited by Burns

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[quote name='Burns' post='28630' date='Apr 11 2009, 10:00 AM']and i like your spies, i was totally sure that nobody else was listening at that point...[/quote]

Burns I didn't ask anyone to spy for me. I recived those logs without asking for them.

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Yrth's so called Reasons are all contrived: Made up. GG has been planning to take over LR for some time now, this is just his excuse. as for Grido and MRD, they have chosen to steal their way into the Savelites by using King Bulls login and password without permission. Yrth trying to put his Real Life friend into power here in LR shows his true face, and has nothing to do with Roleplay, but just a grab for Power. One land just isn't enough for Yrth. As for this insult to MRD, well soory about the length but you broughtit up....

Chat log


You want to find fault with me ,go ahead, but I also stand behind my opinion. And if that is not damming enough, I have more. again sorry....

Chat Log


and yes I am leaving the game. I have asked repeatedly to speak to Mur, but since he will not respond to me...I might as well say it here. This constant struggle for power in the game has taken all the fun out of it for me. We were trying to build something different in LR, but between the constant bickering between its members and players always trying to power grab it has been too much to deal with. that was why the need for an Archon / leader / whatever.... to silence all the bickering. Yrth and Grido and MRD and MB and Burns, from the sound of it, just want another land to control. They don't like the fact that unlike them we chose a different path in the game. but apparently there is no room in this game for Artists and free thinkers. So I bid you all Farewell. Just call me the first casuallty of your war Yrth. Edited by Chewett
Mods or anyone please use the Show hide box. This was a massive post -Chewett

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[quote]First of all, I'm going to make it crystal clear that I will not interfere with the war effort or the fighting. I won't be attacking anyone or anything until this mess is over.

HOWEVER. I will make it known that I think this "war" is completely unnecessary and (from what I gathered to be the cause) childish. You are all acting like children on the playground who started fighting because one kid insulted another. Only...you have bigger and sharper sticks to hit each other with...[/quote]

I totally agree with Saki, but I will also add that the ones that attack the Marble Dale Park, just because it is war WILL feel my wrath

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U know what? i am asking myself why that dojo is in MDP and not in LR with Calyx?

but ths is offtopic and we will stop here :P

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