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how culd a post like this one be considered inactive? these things have no time, its not a topic that can be ever closed. Interesting opinions i might add, some actualy right. The principles do for a whole, and the current are not all of them, but that doesnt mean they are 14 like sugested above, or less , or more, or that they come in pairs ... and i wont say that because i want things to come up naturaly when their time is.

Unfortunatly i focused much more on the game mechanics lately , than on its principles. one day when things will work more smooth and there will be less people obsessed with getting high stats and interpreting explots as possibe features, i will return to this and expand the very base on this ...gam..its principles and magic part.

Untill then, such discussions are welcome and keep things moving in the right direction, and that direction is the onne were you all put your minds to think about what the principles are and how to use them.

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It is unfortunate that there are those who come here who do little more than seek to exploit the system on which this world is based. They are the ones who only seek power for power's sake and miss everything else that this place has to offer.

I look forward to the day when stats are simply an aspect of the world and not the sole focus of so many who are here. Of course, I would love for that day to be tomorrow, but I know that King Manu must work hard to achieve that and that it will not be an overnight accomplishment.

May your fingers and mind work quickly for the benefit of all, King Manu. I am curious to know what else this world has to offer to those who seek more than the ultimate combat ritual, the strongest creature, or the highest statistic.

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[quote name='Watcher' post='27119' date='Mar 14 2009, 03:51 AM']It is unfortunate that there are those who come here who do little more than seek to exploit the system on which this world is based. They are the ones who only seek power for power's sake and miss everything else that this place has to offer.

I look forward to the day when stats are simply an aspect of the world and not the sole focus of so many who are here. Of course, I would love for that day to be tomorrow, but I know that King Manu must work hard to achieve that and that it will not be an overnight accomplishment.

May your fingers and mind work quickly for the benefit of all, King Manu. I am curious to know what else this world has to offer to those who seek more than the ultimate combat ritual, the strongest creature, or the highest statistic.[/quote]


I wish i knew who are you.....i really like your ideas. Tarquinus going to give my opinion on fate/destiny principle but it would be more like a personal opinion than anything else....

For me fate/destiny as people see dont really exist yet fate do exist based on your personality,your personality is already formed and will guide you through a series of events making the logical choices matching your personality....so what i mean is its not that its written somewhere what will happen but your personality only narrow your choices,its like choosing your favorite ice cream you wont choose chocolate ice cream if your favorite is strawberry....can you understand my point?


To Mur: We could always make a witch hunt against those obsessed people!XD Not that it isnt good fixing bugs and possible exploits but sometimes its better just to ignore them to improve other things much more interesting!Stop bugging him with bugs!Let him work on the game itself!

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What about Thread Necromancy? Wow, I remember reading this when I first joined and having had a thought.

How about the principal of force?
Force would of course be highly connected to the principal of transposition in some ways, but physical force wouldn't need to be the only one considered. A force is anything that pushes something to change in some way, a force could be a form of seduction attempting to get someone to do something for you or could be misinformation to get a person to go in the wrong direction (these are not the droids you are looking for ;). Of course one might also be able to use it to throw an ewok across the room.

I suppose with that could go the principal of inertia. The ability to resist outside forces/influences toward change.

Or the principal of friction/resistance. The idea of something always resisting your motion regardless of what you do, always working opposite other forces. What brings an object to rest. A stubborn person might be said to have a high coefficient of static friction. Or we could just call them stubborn.

Edited by Guybrush Threepwood

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[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' date='19 September 2009 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1253383948' post='42119']
How about the principal of force?
Force would of course be highly connected to the principal of transposition in some ways, but physical force wouldn't need to be the only one considered. A force is anything that pushes something to change in some way, a force could be a form of seduction attempting to get someone to do something for you or could be misinformation to get a person to go in the wrong direction (these are not the droids you are looking for :)). Of course one might also be able to use it to throw an ewok across the room.
[/quote]

Very good idea, really ;) Power of will, your feelings and emotions can motivate or even force you to do (or not to do) something... :))
I think, Morality is also a kind of force - tells you what the borders are. While, this is relative... :o
There are many forms of force.

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Warning---This will be a long one!!!!!---Warning

THE PRINCIPLE OF LIBIDO

the circle is also a symbol of the psyche while the symbol for the body is a square. Like the circle, the psyche can exhibit both stable and unstable modes, and it includes both conscious and unconscious aspects The perfect circle, a symbol for linearity and order, uses the Greek letter pi for its circumference as

circumference = (pi) x diameter

But, pi cannot be calculated exactly; it must always be rounded off and is therefore nonlinear. Pi is a chaotic number in the sense that it is undeterminable. For this reason, the circle is a good example of how chaos and order work together in perfect harmony.

Life includes both chaos and order. Our lives consist of a continuous series of good and bad experiences as evidenced by the modern concept of biorhythms. This is true whether we are male or female, young or old, and is irrespective of our race or religious convictions. The two interrelated concepts of chaos and order describe the complex nature of our physical universe as one of chaotic order. And we, too, embody chaotic order. In other words, we are ruled alternately, and indiscriminately, by chaos and by order. We cannot get away from this relationship, but rather must somehow learn to deal with it. When our lives are going as planned, we can usually expect chaos to show up at some point, in one form or another. Perhaps it will rain when we want to do some work outside, or perhaps our car will have a flat tire on the way to an evening in town. The important thing is how we meet this chaos and react to it. According to the findings of chaos theory, times of chaos (i.e., those unplanned, unexpected, and usually unwanted, events that occur to all of us) can be creative.

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[quote name='Mad Hatter' date='19 February 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1266544012' post='54721']
Pi is a chaotic number in the sense that it is undeterminable. For this reason, the circle is a good example of how chaos and order work together in perfect harmony.
[/quote]
Waring: semantics!

Pi is a chaotic number because it is at the same time [b][u]determined[/u] and non-repeating[/b]. There probably are various mathematical way of expressing chaos, but this seems easiest to explain with. Pi is determined because for any finite number of digits, there exists a function with which you can calculate pi up until that digit, in a finite time. In the same manner the digits of 1/3 can be calculated, albeit more trivially. The fact that there are infinitely many digits not equal to zero is not important. Another example of a perfectly defined number is 0.123123123.. determined and repeating. If you know the digits n through n+p-1, you can calculate the m-th digit, for any m, by using m modulo p (the period). This is not the case for Pi (can't remember if that has been proven though).

A number that is indeterminable, is a random number.

One of the links between chaos and randomness is that often you do not know at which part of the sequence you are. If I ask you to calculate the n+1 digit of Pi, that is possible. Yet if I give you only the n-th digit of Pi, but do not tell you it is the n-th, and ask you to calculate the next digit, you cannot compute it. If I give you a series of digits, but do not tell you which sequence they are from, you cannot tell me the next digit. eg 3.141, what is the next digit? Most people will assume I meant the sequence of Pi and think that the next digit is five, but 3.141 is also an existing, yet less meaningful number, so the next digit could also be zero or one or ... any random digit.

/semantics

Also, why is it called principle of libido? I can see that the unexpected is the only moment which actually requires creativity. This is also linked to evolution which requires both an increase in variety of the gene pool so that new species can be 'created' and a catastrophe so that the old, suddenly unfit, species extinct. From evolution towards sexual selection and then libido is a route to take, but also a bridge too far imo. The emphasis should be on large scale catastrophes, not on individual urges.

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Pi is not determined! when does it end, can you give me the last number in Pi? Cause if you can then you are greater then God ((if you believe in that stuff- i just used it as a ref.)), but you cannot! Pi is a transcendental number, which implies, among other things, that no finite sequence of algebraic operations on integers (powers, roots, sums, etc.) can be equal to its value.Because π is an irrational number, as well,its decimal representation does not repeat, and therefore does not terminate.

i used the term 'libido' because of its nature to psychic energy, the same way that physics uses the term energy, as described by Carl Gustav Jung. Every psychic content is associated with libido. When a conscious content loses libido, it drops out of consciousness and enters the personal unconscious.

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[quote name='Mad Hatter' date='19 February 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1266612661' post='54790']
Pi is not determined! when does it end, can you give me the last number in Pi? Cause if you can then you are greater then God ((if you believe in that stuff- i just used it as a ref.)), but you cannot! Pi is a transcendental number, which implies, among other things, that no finite sequence of algebraic operations on integers (powers, roots, sums, etc.) can be equal to its value.Because π is an irrational number, as well,its decimal representation does not repeat, and therefore does not terminate.[/quote]
And I repeat myself: 'The fact that there are infinitely many digits not equal to zero is not important.' There are two kinds of mathematics: those that deal with infinity and the finite mathematics. In the latter pi must be determined because it has only a finite number of digits and the former doesn't care about formulas having an infinite number of terms, because it can effectively use infinity as long as the series converges. We all know that Pi is not infinity, thus we know that eg. a Taylor expansion to calculate Pi is a converging sum. And there are many known series to calculate Pi.

Can you give me the last digit in the repeating sequence 0.123123123.. ? Yet that is a rational number, if you believe wikipedia: [i]"It can be proved that irrational numbers are precisely those real numbers that cannot be represented as terminating or repeating decimals, although mathematicians do not take that to be the definition."[/i] Actually there isn't even such a thing as a 'last digit' unless you believe in finitism.

Pi is a great many things: real, irrational, transcendental, having digits that are uniformly distributed (last i heard this was still assumed to be true)... it can most likely be mapped unto a chaotic function. But it is a constant. Determined and very simple, although time consuming, to calculate the n-th digit for any n.

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well then I am glad that you figured out that your wrong and I'm right....lol....besides infinity is any direction or series without end, not a number. this is why.....

One of the main reasons we don't call infinity a number is that it doesn't
act like one. Let's say we call infinity the number A (some people
actually do use the hebrew letter Aleph to name one kind of infinity).
Then I can show you that the equation A + A = A.

Consider the number of terms in the sequence 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,... , and
consider the number of terms in the sequence 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,.... They
have the same number of terms, because I can match them up in a one-to-one
way, right? Match them up like this:

1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 ...
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 ...

So the number of terms in these sequence is the same, and we'll say that
they each have A terms. Now what happens if I take both of these
sequences together? I get the sequence 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,.... And here's
the funky part: this sequence, which looks like it should have twice as
many terms as either of the first two sequences, actually turns out to
have the same number of terms as each of the first two sequences, as I
can demonstrate by matching them up like this:

1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 ...
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 ...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ...

So if you believe this stuff, we've just shown that infinity is a number
that you can add to itself and get itself. That's a pretty bizarre
characteristic to have in a number, unless it's zero (and infinity
certainly isn't zero!). So this is one of the properties of numbers that
infinity wouldn't stand up to.



hate me yet? Edited by Mad Hatter

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I am aware of the properties of infinity. They are as relevant as infinity itself is relevant... on which I have commented twice before.

Let F be finitism and ~F be belief in infinity of any kind (countable, uncountable).
I have shown that
1. F => Pi is determined
2. ~F => Pi is determined

Since F U ~F must be true, Pi is determined. You can say as much as you like about F or about ~F, it will not change this.


You have earlier tried to refute 2, saying that it is impossible to know the "last digit" of an irrational number. Yet 1/11 = 0.0909.. has that same property and is a rational number. The cardinality of it's decimal places is the same as for Pi, nl Aleph null.

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i just love how this topic turned into a math one....simply love it.

ok i see your point.any further conversation on this is moot since we both agree to disagree. yet i know your right and i am wrong, i still like to argue!

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Principle of Death. Death is broad and comes in many forms- death of a view, of an idea, of people, plants, and animals.....death of the mind. The death of planets and realms....the death of stars. It is endless.

One could say that death is only an aspect of cyclicity, but there's much more to it than that. In some forms of death, there IS a cycle- human death and rebirth for example. But in the death of ideas, or the death of the mind (brain dead, for example), there is not always another beginning from such things. In those instances, things can just end.

I think death is very valid. I would say birth as well, but I DO think *that* would be getting too close to cyclicity.

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@Aysun

The cycle would be birth, life, death, and void. In my opinion, birth is encompassed in syntropy, life in light, death in entropy, void in darkness.

The exact moments of birth and death are a change of balance. Edited by apophys

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^ Again, not all forms of death run in a cycle. Some things do simply end, therefore it cannot be any sort of loop. Death is a multifaceted thing, and due to its diversity and inevitability in a plethora of forms, I thought it worthy of suggestion. :D

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Guest
Lews Therin Telamon,

A very interesting suggestion, I would like to hear more ^^



Aysun,

I think that the idea of death as finality only comes when you focus on the one form rather than looking at the subject from a universal point of view.

Take your example of the death of a star. A star has a 'life cycle'.. in essence, it does not die but changes form. From gas and dust it becomes a star, and this form is kept due to the burning of energy. When the source of this energy is changed, so does its form. Ultimately, a star will become a neutron star, a white (/black) star or a black hole, depending on its original mass. The changes of form can be explained through the enthropy principle.

The same basic argument can be given for the death of plant and animal life. Once the organism ceases to exist in that form, it will decompose and the 'ingredients' used in its make up will then go on to become something else.. another organism, for example, or even a chunk of coal. Nature's idea of
rebirth can be very different to our own.


As for ideas, which for me was the most interesting concept you brought up, I think the important factor to consider is not whether an idea dies or not, but WHY it appears to die.

It could be out of Time : consider Leonardo da Vinci sketching the basic idea for a helicopter/propellor many many years before conditions were suitable for the theory to become practice.
It could be simply unsuitable: for example, suggesting changes to your boss without taking all factors into consideration (e.g. financial, manpower, customer demand)
It could also simply be a matter of work or 'energy': often an idea has to be worked on and evolve before it is suitable to go ahead. Imagine a person who is stuck with where to go with their idea. They can either give up or ask another person to help. Another person may take elements of that idea and improve on it.
There are of course, many more examples of this.



For any who wish to find out about the existing principles:

[url="http://md-archives.com/categories/archives-of-magic/principles.html"]http://md-archives.c...principles.html[/url]


Regards,

Ailith. Edited by Guest

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^The isolated example I used in my last post was to show that it isn't always a cycle and thus diverse enough to not fall into cyclicty, etc. Death has so many variations, as your example shows, and that's why I think it's principle worthy. :))

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Aysun, you seem to have missed my point.


All kinds of death are a manifestation of balance and entropy. (in my opinion)


For example, in the mind, an idea is an orderly thought process. The idea dies via introduction of disorder, by contradiction. E.g. you had a business venture in plan, BUT it is too risky for you, so you give up.

A death process is governed/caused by entropy; the exact moment of death is a change in balance.


So, a moment of beginning would be a positive change in balance, a moment of end would be a negative change in balance.
The process of beginning is governed by syntropy, the process of end is governed by entropy.



As for Lews' idea of form, that should go under Time. An object in a moment of 0 time is a form of the object. Edited by apophys

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Guest
Aysun,

I think you missed my point too, by a great distance.

The examples I gave in response to you can already be explained by and studied through existing principles.

Ailith Edited by Guest

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Principle of Reality

-Connects all things with one truth.
-Opposite to Imagination, yet not truely.
-Perhaps the most significant Principle, this one has greater meaning and is a massive mystory to all.

If you don't like this one, or think you can add/alter it, let me know.
But I think this one is pretty good.

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There is no principle that is more significant than the others, as I understand it. They are all interconnected, yet separate.

Sorry if I'm being cryptic, hard to explain ideas in my head sometimes X.x

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[font="'Palatino Linotype"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"]What about the principle of [/color][/size][/font][font="'Palatino Linotype"][size="3"][color="#ff0000"]Ki(Japanese)Chi(Chinese) [/color][/size][/font][font="'Palatino Linotype"][size="3"][color="#0000ff"] - Martial artists, monks, healers, just about all of Asia knows of this invisible yet powerful force we are able to tap into, from the earth into our center and extend out as Ki/Chi, This energy is abundant, tho it takes training and meditation to become aware of how to tap into Ki/chi. Have you ever seen the monks go into freezing caves with wet cloth covering there mostly naked bodies, meditate and cause so much warmth that they begin to steam, they are not cold. It is like magic, this raw and unseen force. Anyhow just my two cents...[/color][/size][/font]

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