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Well this is hard question.... From this point of view you right, it's really hard to find the idea that will replace idea of war :) . But if you so badly seek war, you must learn all about you enemy, and not attack him with "plank with nail".

If we will going diplomatic way first, and only then we will be able choose with pure heart - war or peace. If we will choose this way, then we will avoid death of players in future<_< Now, when we on threshold of war. we can't even imagine what in second circle of the Necrovion e.t.c.. Maybe the shades in first and second circle reflecting differently on our actions. Or something else.

If we will come back on diplomatic way, we will know weakness of the shades better e.t.c. And only then looking for war. Are you agree with me, Rex?

Sorry for bad english.

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thats all very nice but has one problm the shades what war more then anyone else and did anyone think they are lying about reflecting our actions (when has info been that easy to get in MD)most of the army formed after necro's did and necro is by far the biggest and most powerful this is not copy our actions, its ploting on there own

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Hmm, I already think about that. :)

Exactly! If they not copy our actions, they soon or later we will notice this. And if they lying to us, they already in trap. 'cause they must reflecting our actions and there is many methods to make it our advantage. :lol:

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Hmm, I already think about that. :)

Exactly! If they not copy our actions, they soon or later we will notice this. And if they lying to us, they already in trap. 'cause they must reflecting our actions and there is many methods to make it our advantage. :lol:

You're still making assumptions, Lloyd. I'd like to play along and say "must," but I've learned some things in the past two days that make me wonder how much of what we think we know is accurate. Look to the past. Don't take it from me: ask the sages and read the legends.

I agree with about half the things you say - you're mad, utterly mad, and like most madmen you only know how to speak the truth. Pure heart - you're on the right track there. Gabriel Wind and Jack Willow. Don't show me where I'm wrong, or where you think I'm wrong, or whatever. Look at the history and think about it - that's all I ask.

Yami No Sakura told me yesterday, among other things, that a large and curiously independent-acting Shade has been spotted beyond the borders of Necrovion from time to time. So I ask you: whose shade is this?

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how do we know that they are really independent sure your all heard the term black ops if you mean the legend that was told yesterday I was there as well that only seems to make the fact the say one thing and then do some else even clearer

then again maybe the "independent shades" are the ones seeking balance and peace(what the necro shades say they want) and the necro shades seek war(what they act like they want to do) and lying to keep us from finding out or this is just the ranting of a madman you figure it out

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how do we know that they are really independent sure your all heard the term black ops if you mean the legend that was told yesterday I was there as well that only seems to make the fact the say one thing and then do some else even clearer

then again maybe the "independent shades" are the ones seeking balance and peace(what the necro shades say they want) and the necro shades seek war(what they act like they want to do) and lying to keep us from finding out or this is just the ranting of a madman you figure it out

Yes, I recall your being there. But this was a reference to one shade, not necessarily a group, and the Legend Teller said it exhibited behavior unusual in a shade. When I said "independent-acting" I chose my words poorly, because what I meant was that it seems to have an unusual degree of personality for a shade, or an unusual personality for a shade, if there is any difference.

Few beings are what they seem to be, humans included, as your example of Black Ops aptly illustrates. That said, the shades seem to have their own sorts of motivations which may or may not be comprehensible to mortals... and my guess tends toward "not."

My reason for jumping into this thread at all is pretty simple: most of us don't seem to know what we're talking about, so taking action based on bad information, misinformation, or ignorance seems... risky, to put it politely. Rex has acquired some evidence, and I'm willing to bet Glaistig has, too. Nobody seems to want to be entirely forthcoming about the full scope of his/her information, and with good reason. All most of us can do is study the history of the MD realm and attempt to understand how things have unfolded to this point.

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spoken well tarquinus. indeed it is vital to verify our information, if this is possible. it seems we were satisfied to fast with what we believed to know... the agendas, the reasons to fight we have to find in order to understand and take the right action... includes the understanding of the shades, to which degree we might be able to, or at least their motivation.

studying the history of this realm is important, not just for the imidient future, but remember that we are strangers in this lands, the shades have lived through this history you, me and other sages study... what survived in scriptures may be one interpretation of history, and unless we can fully trust the origins of this scriptures - and the extent of their insight - we must remember this very fact. don't misunderstand me, i have deep trust in your judgement, but it is easy to lose sight of the dangers and uncertainties once one is close to uncover truth. and you seem close indeed, uncovering that there is more to the nature of the shades - or at least some of them - than we thought. i hope your work will clear our view of the things to come... and of course i will do some studies of my own, hoping that the combined efforts of the sages gathered here and throughout the realm will shed some light on things uncertain.

one question i have, tarquinus. did you study in the md archieves, the halls in loreroot or even some hidden libraries in distant lands? unless you already have studied all the libraries of this realm it might proof useful to view the different sources we have access to, in case some informations vary about certain events. the reason for this question is simply to offer assistance, since time is a limited ressource.

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one question i have, tarquinus. did you study in the md archieves, the halls in loreroot or even some hidden libraries in distant lands? unless you already have studied all the libraries of this realm it might proof useful to view the different sources we have access to, in case some informations vary about certain events. the reason for this question is simply to offer assistance, since time is a limited ressource.

Most of my information comes from the Archives (what I will call the Legends section of this forum), but I will try to gather my information and post specific links, etc. Where possible, I will provide my citations; otherwise, I will identify word-of-mouth information as such.

Loreroot is a fascinating place about which I have only guesses. Helen Wasp! I felt a shock of familiarity when I read this name. I immediately hungered to know more. When I sit at Raven's Peace, I could swear the place remembers her.

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In agreement with Tarquinus' eloquent post:

What information everyone has is what has been handed to us. Nothing is written upon the documents of old. Everything is perception, and perception is, if nothing else, impure and altered based upon the degree of reflection of one's own motives and beliefs.

With this said, I believe it necessary to explain that any who question the Sentinels need only look at our statement as an alliance. We are focused on being a defensive group intent upon protecting the lands of Necrovion. These attacks you speak of? I have been attacked more times by seekers of things other than shades, than by the shades or sentinels themselves(before and after joining them).

You can not POSSIBLY believe that this light you so desperately believe to be your greatest pursuit is really true to you. If it had the opportunity to pursue it's motive and leave you to wallow in your own sufferings...it would. It is not as great as you believe it to be. It is truly blinding you, bit by bit.

You delve deeper into what you believe is this great balance we are "currently in", but in truth, there is not a thread of balance at the moment. You speak on things you have only been told to be true, yet, in reality, you know no less than I or any other how true they really are. You believe in them because you CHOOSE to believe in them. They are true to you BECAUSE you believe in them.

There are truths to be sought and found, do not get me wrong. But those which you believe in, I am not of the inclination they are to be true. Perhaps they are perceptions as Tarquinus put it, perhaps not. Either way...

War is not inevitable. There are ways, but I know not of them. If peace is what you seek, so be it, but is it truly what you seek?

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With this said, I believe it necessary to explain that any who question the Sentinels need only look at our statement as an alliance. We are focused on being a defensive group intent upon protecting the lands of Necrovion. These attacks you speak of? I have been attacked more times by seekers of things other than shades, than by the shades or sentinels themselves(before and after joining them).

...

War is not inevitable. There are ways, but I know not of them. If peace is what you seek, so be it, but is it truly what you seek?

This was what I was looking for, not some unjustified blather about the world being unbalanced and war necessary. Although I do think that might merit another topic; it's true we don't know any more than you about the world (although it doesn't mean you know something). Discussion about theories of how the MD world is, what to do about it, etc is good.

It's logical, though, to me, how war would be put at least on hold and peace prolonged. You need only affirm that all the powerful factions of the world don't wish to attack another alliance without specified provocation agreed prior to the occurrence by all sides as necessitating war to stop or punish: a treaty. Written, yes! Within alliances, leaders, the ones who would sign this treaty, should be able to enforce their rules in accordance to the treaty. One person should not be able to start a war so easily.

There are three main military alliances: Golemus, Necrovion and Loreroot. Should one break the treaty, the other two can join together in efforts to set things right. Although Golemus and Necrovion seem to be at odds, Loreroot is neutral as far as I can tell and I don't doubt that it is dependable for doing the right thing. And if other forces should grow in power or arrive to upset the treaty, the joined powers can pressure the new force to sign the treaty.

I don't say it's not infallible, but it's better than nothing. I agree that war is sometimes justified and reasonable, but the one we keep talking about as approaching doesn't seem so to me. If there is to be a war, the reason for it should be clear. Plain bloodmongering because of a slight discord between philosophies and objectives is stupid, considering the sacrifice of what could be achieved in peace. And once again, please don't underestimate the value of peace. War is fun, but so is friendly competition between lands--and the evolution such competition would bring is far more productive than a war that is unjustified.

As for truths and perceptions: it is true, not a single one can know for sure a fact of this world. But doesn't that mean you shouldn't act as if you do? I think theories, especially ones that might prompt controversy and increase tensions between different powers, should be discussed openly before action is taken based on such theories. A single person's opinion, unopen and stubborn, is not helpful. A collection of opinions, flexible and able to be inferenced by logic of others, is something that can create great things.

A single last thing, at Logan specifically: you keep on referring to this "light." I don't know what it is; I have no idea if you mean what I do strive for by the word or something else. Do you refer to peace? The goal to do things reasonably and cooperatively with the people of all lands? If you are referring to such things, don't label it "light." I don't get how the concepts correlate at all. It confuses me, making me refrain from responding until I'm sure of the meaning. You were the one who spoke to me of stereotypes, classifying lands as "light" or "dark" and correspondingly "good" or "evil"; don't create such stereotypes yourself.

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The light and dark portions were not aimed at you. You just read them that way...

But who were they directed to and what were they about? I still dislike the thought of stereotypes about the concepts of light and dark.

@stormrunner, the current lands wars (dst killing cheerfully and ghosts appearing at the Gazeebo of Chaos) are for testing. The ghosts will be returned to the previous status and what side kills the most people won't have an effect on the adventure log or something like that. I don't know if or if not there will be a war later.. but it looks like it because no action is being taken to prevent war from any side. Well, namely, Necrovion and Golemus, since Loreroot is purely defensive in the first place.

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I want people to bet on racing grasans! And attend Knattish concerts! and play cards with their archers! and go fishing with their winderwilds! and tease the goat. and have picnics with the tree... and attend the house of liquid dust as a haunted house. and put RJ and MB in a gladiator arena. and get wodin struck by lightning. and get more people swimming in the white lake. and race mattresses down more stair cases. and launch buckets of water over the gates of marind's bell at the newbies. and play beach volleyball with some water beings. (=P) and throw paper at the goat. and throw rocks off the walk way above Willow's shop to hit those fools who sleep there. :) and make a general nuisance of myself in the world. like the goat. :P

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I think Rena has some sort of goat fetish... Well, it's okay. Goats are pretty cute. Maybe you can just think of it like an interesting quirk. Though it is disconcerting, no, concerning when he just randomly inserts the goat thing in his posts.

Yeah.. peace sounds fun. War doesn't really sound fun like peace does. We already have head contests and regular combat, and in peace we can have tournaments with elite representatives for different alliances/lands... But it's not like I can keep on ranting in hopes of forcing people.

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ren you may want to get some help with the goat thing you have going on, it creep me out morethe then mur leaving massage he hasn't been in a while (that happen to addresses to a storm)

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I traveled a lot among the lands, and found interesting fact - do you remember how Necro alliance was formed? Khal did not wanted to form alliance with shades at all, But shades did not reflecting his wishes. The only one logical explanation - that was influence from Inner Necrovion or shades lying to us that they our reflection. Am I right?.

And second fact. The shades can see future, ---> In the Inner Necro shades knows about possibility of war from very start + knows about our actions = so they started they preparing from time of first Khal's meeting with shades or even earlier. ...If that so, they formed alliance for easy influence on current events in our lands. And they make us react ( :lol: ) on Khal's actions in one or other way. They make go events in one way or another... And will bring them victory of course.

So all current events was planned by shades.

That's only theory based on fact... But second fact is disturb my mind.

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Well, regarding the alliance formation, it could be a reaction to what Wodin did at the time; gathering armies to destroy the shades. Khal turned to Black after an argument with Wodin, and maybe Wodin's will to destroy the shades reached its peak at the time with Khal asking him to have peace with the Shades. As the strongest light, this might have been what affected the shades.. Well, just another theory too =)

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