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M B: The Sun That Never Sets

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For those of you who Particiapted in my Recent Quest you know it was all about the same Topic as this Thread. That is because this Quest was the first step into an Investigation of the Absence of Night, and Constant Daylight of the MagicDuel world.

What Follows here is the Conclusion of that Quest, but I started this Forum so that the Investigation of whats Happened to the Night in MD can be discussed by all.

Ok, heres the basics of how My Quest ran...

1) Each player Got/Earned 7 Hiakus (a type of Poem), Each of which Related to a specific Place in MD.

- These Places are where I Investigated the Sun

- In total there were 25 Haikus and Locations

2) For Finding the Right Location a Quester was given one of my Research Notes (found below).

3) After Collecting all 7 Notes, or as many as they could, the Quester then Had to come up with a Theory of their own about what is Going on.

I should Note that my Research Follows very Scientific trends, and is based on Actual Physics and Astronomical Findings...

The Rest of this Post is the Notes from my Quest, and the Theory that I came up with. This Theory is written in Italics to make it easy to separate from the rest...

Note 1:

One of the things that has bothered me Most about this Constant Daylight is that the Sun never seems to move…

How is this possible?

I seem to have some recollection that Sun move due to Planets spinning. Is it possible this planet is no longer Rotating about an Axis?

This also sends a shiver down my spine, A never moving Sun would mean Night will never fall, yet There is evidence that once there was a Day and Night balance here. So how did the Night stop?

I cannot believe that any force on this Earth could stop a Planet from rotating…..

Note 2:

Having confirmed my suspicions at the Archives I now know for certain that this place Did have a Day and Night cycle. However I find no reference to “sunrise” or “sunset”, all I find are the terms “Period of Light” and “Period of Shadow”…

There must be more to this puzzle than I am seeing. Though some fear in me tells me my memories are wrong, or at best that what I Know does not apply to this place.

No! I will not surcome to those thoughts. This place has reason, there is room for scientific thinking. Perhaps I only need only try a new approach to the problem.

Note 3:

I tried exploring as Far as I was able to today. This land is harsh though, I feel I cannot travel very far before needing to rest. I also find many paths blocked and cannot get very far.

However in my travels I spoke to many to find out their ideas about the Sun. It seems many have never noticed the Fixed position of the Sun, and some had hardly noticed the lack of Night!

Others had indeed put some thought into the matter. Some wondered about the implications that perhaps our Half of the World is bathed in Light, while another is in Darkness. Some also felt there was a connection to Necrovion and the Shades…

Some people, Lulu, Sol, and Muloki, also Joined me in a Chat about Astronomy, where we discussed much of what we know about the Universe around us.

Note 4:

Spurred By all the New Ideas I’d found I decided I should start testing some Ideas.

I set up some instruments at varying Locations and took different measurements at each location. My tests were to see is our Sun changes at all, if it always appears the same size, the same brightness, etc.

While setting all my Equipment up I had to wonder what the effect of Constant light would have. Surely an Ever Present Sun would have very powerful effects on the Land, and those that lived there. I wonder how long this Constant Daylight has been going on…

Note 5:


I was monitoring a crude device I had made to try and see if the Sun was moving. Basically just a Stick in the ground, and I marked the Shadow every few Hours to see if it moved.

It does! I’m not yet sure to what extent, but the Sun definitely does move in a periodic fashion.

My findings were also confirmed by another measurement, this time A Tube pointed at the Sun and some paper placed where the Image forms on the Ground.

By drawing a circle at the Edge of the Sun every few Hours I find that it does get closer and further to us periodically.

In fact the periods of the Two observations Seem to coincide.

Note 6:

By keeping track of all the Measurements from my Various Devices, I have been able to further clarify the Apparent Motion of the Sun. I say Apparent Motion because at these Scales it is hard to say if my Measurements are seeing A motion that we are making, or motion the Sun is making.

Having reviewed my notes carefully I believe I can say with clarity that it is the Sun that is making this motion, not Us.

Though the Sun is fixed in one Position in our Sky, it does move. It may not appear as much Motion to Us, but in Scales of the Sun even a little motion like I have found is Significant.

How this is related to Night in this land is still beyond me, but I feel I am making progress.

Note 7:

I spent Days locked inside the Archives, looking up maths that would help me approach this problem. Trying to further clarify my only lead, the slight, periodic, motion of the Sun.

After some Effort I seem to be able to say with certainty that the Sun actually travels in an Orbit. By Orbit I mean that the Sun seems to travel in a circle through Space, and this is what has caused the Wobble I’ve noted.

This must somehow explain how Night used to come to the land, though I’m not sure it will easily explain how that Night was lost.

I feel I am so close to the Answer now, but it is Too early to Share my Thoughts, First I must find others and see if they can reach a similar conclusion. I feel that this Stellar Wobble is the key…

I recently Asked People In MagicDuel to Aid me in Some Research. Some worked Diligently and provided assistance, others thought Only of the Reward I promised to those that Finished the Task I asked them For. The Conclusion of This Quest was that the Assistant Submit a Theory about The Sun that never Sets. How it was Possible to Have a Sun that Never Moved, or how Day and Night Could Have once been in any form of Balance (as I believe has Occurred at least at some Point in the Realm).

Here are My Ideas that I came Up with before the Quest for Assistants began, I will Post Some of the Theories that Impressed me the Best in Terms of Originality and Thought later. I Want to also Note the Players who Came to the Same Conclusion as I did (Which is what the Notes in My Quest were Hinting at…)

*Those who Matched My Theory*





My Theory:

Based on My Notes I think I have come to a Fairly clear Theory of the Sun of MagicDuel, that includes how Night and Day could have once existed in a Cycle of Balance.

First off, the fact that The Sun is always in the Sky suggests one of Two possibilities.

A ) The Area of the Word on Which me Live is Actually Right on the Axis of this Planets Location. This Axis May Point to the Sun, thus Keeping us Ever Facing the Sun. An Axis may move due to Precession (Imagine a Spinning Top, It spins about the Wood Piece in the Center and for a Time this part sticks straight up. However as the Top slows its spinning gets more Erratic and this wood pieces begins to move in Circles itself). This is how an Axis can move to follow the Sun…

B ) This Word is Tidally Locked with the Sun. Whenever a Small Body orbits a Larger One the Gravity Difference between the Two Sides of a Planet causes it to elongate a little, making the Smaller Body Slightly Oval or Egglike in Shape. However as a Body Rotates the Pull of Gravity constantly Pulls back just a little bit on the Planet Due to this Bulging. Thus the Smaller Bodies Rotation Slows until Eventually only One Side Faces the Larger Body. * A good Example of this is The Moon. It always has the same Face Pointed at Earth. As many of you Know, the Moon causes Tides on Earth, easily Seen in the Water as it “Flows” more Easily than Rock. In fact the Earth is Slowing ever so slightly as the Moon’s Tidal Force slowly pulls back…*

I Prefer Theory B, as It Coincides with the Angien Theory a bit better, and makes a Bit more sense Scientifically Speaking…

So How does Night and Day Occur on a World that is Tidally Locked? I got Many interesting Ideas from Questers, but I feel this one is best..

I Suggest that Our Sun has a Companion of Sorts, A large Planet or a Dead Star Perhaps? (note a Black Hole, would Qualify as a Dead Star)

This Companion, that I will Refer to as the “Moon” of MagicDuel, could well Be Orbiting the Sun, and Be Massive enough to Pull the Center of Mass away from the Sun, Thus The Sun and Moon Orbit around a Point, Which We in Turn Orbit. This Moon could then have periodically Blocked out the Sun, giving a “Period of Shadow” (Basically this could be Considered an Elongated Solar Eclipse…)

How did this Cycle End? Who knows… Something could have shifted the Moon’s Orbit so that We don’t See it (rather that it Doesn’t Come into Our Line of Sight with the Sun). Or Perhaps Something Greater happened to it… (It’s Possible that Gas From the Sun was Pulled to the Moon, and It Ignited Again. Assuming the Moon is a Dead Star, Not a Planet, or Back Hole)

Angien Theory:

As many of you may have Heard there is a Creation Myth about MD that involves a Powerful Angien. I believe My Theory Coincides with this Theory, but I felt it Necessary to Provide and Alternate Idea to what I have Presented.

You have Seen the Image on the Homepage of MagicDuel, that Image is of an Angien Pulling the World of MaigcDuel out of the Ground (the Board, or Box in some images, is the Realm of MagicDuel).

This Myth may have little to do with the Sun That Never Sets, however Some theorize that the Sun in our Sky is the Face of this Angien (much larger and more Powerful than the Angiens the Seekers of Enlightenment are Searching for) looking down on us. They suggest the Night was when the Board of MagicDuel was in the Ground.

I however believe that There was a Time when there was a Cycle of Day and Night, a balance between the two so to Speak. That Cycle is in Truth the Heart of my Quest. I simply choose Science as my Method of explanation.

One Note of Interest. After Developing my Theory (well before the Quest Began) The Seekers of Enlightenment were Born. In fact when I first began thinking of My Theory I had little Idea there were Even Beings called Angiens. Yet, when the Seekers of Enlightenment formed into an Alliance I noticed something Very odd.

The Icon For the Seekers is, what Looks to Me, very Much like a Moon, covering a Sun. Basically, their Icon is of a Solar Eclipse…Strange, No?

This Made me think Back to How Angiens were Rumored to Be Dual Sided… Perhaps This Icon is Representative of the Angiens, then Would the Sun and the Moon not represent their Dual Nature? What Really Strikes me is how this Seems to almost Unify My Theory and What I have Read of the Anigen Theory….

I's also like to Invite comments or criticism to my Quest...

And most Importantly those who Developed Theories for the Quest are free to Share their Theories here if they so Choose.

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This is a toally wide curve ball I'm throwing here.... and it could be a bit of a stretch, so open your minds a lil...

Using your theory, the theory of Angiens and what we know of Shades.... the shades mimic (mirror if you will) our world... The seek peace when we do, they war when we war....

Is it remotely possible the Shades and the Angiens are the same beings... just different 'reflections' if you will?

Angiens reflecting all that is bright and 'good' to an extent, and Shades reflecting all that is dark and 'not-so-good'?

I know its a stretch, but it would tie a lot of theories together...

<---Take my Avi as example.... Bright and Fiery on one half.... Dark and mysterious on the other, but all the same being. It is the nature of us all isnt it?

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good job

Also what about when u go to Ash Arch (think that is what its called), to me it looks like a woman holding or reaching for a planet which is surrounded by a thick substance. Is this holding the planet in place? Is there a story behind this? Why is it there?

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I'm not sure, the Couplet there reads something like...

A wooden Arch to make one see

this place holds a Memorie

Seems it might hold some Significance to something... It was even the Answer to one of my Harder Haikus

Such an Odd Greeting,

Is it Gate or Device?

Forward to New Lands.

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The truth, I think, is that there is no planet, no sun, no dark and no light, no day and no night.

My apologies for coming to upset the applecart. I think in a different way about these things and, whether or not you agree, I believe you will see the sense in what I say. I do not mean to denigrate your work, which is methodical and valid in its way. But the scientific process demands an argument, then let the best theory reign.

I have fallen through many worlds - many and many - as have you, Bootes. As have most of us, I suspect. Most I don't remember. But I do recall that each has its own unique ecology and laws of physics, ethereal and material. This is the key to the problem.

This place, I think, is at or near the end of the material plane, where the material and ethereal begin to admix. When we arrive here we notice the oddities of our existence - we have no body, no hands to hold a map, no feet to place in boots, and yet we can carry and wear objects. We can scarcely be seen. The world rarely changes in ANY way, including darkness or light.

And yet as we age into this place we come to believe it is the natural order of things. For here, this is true, but we remember - all of us - a time when we had bodies and hands and could not graft other creatures to our purpose.

I believe as we experience our deaths in world after world, we come around to places less and less of the physical, more and more of the spirit. The deeds you have done, the person you have been, now begin to become the environment in which you live. This is a sort of purgatory, a last stop on the path to dissolution, when finally we become one with whatever matter underlies the material universe.

Everything here is a metaphor, not to be taken literally (or lightly). The eternally burning sun is a symbol, not an object, a projection of some greater mind behind this place. It makes you always see what you are and what you are becoming, what you are doing. You never have the luxury of extrospection because everything around you in some way is a projection of your inner mind.

Bringing back the night would be a simple process of overriding whatever powerful mind holds the structure of this place. When each of us can acknolwedge the darkness that is inside of us, the part of us we find unacceptable, then there will be a collective projection of night.

This is where the Shades live: a place where all the dark is concentrated, where there is no conscious mind to see the dark thoughts and urges. The Shades are the collective unconscious, the Id, the Shadows within. This is where we live: a place where we believe our consciousness to be everything, where there is no darkness to hide our ill will, a great burning superego that would consume us all.

The struggle is not to come to terms with this place but to climb back out of this pit, away from dissolution and towards incarnation.

These are the words of Khalazdad the Black, High Chancellor of Necrovion Sentinels, Speaker With Shades, given in sadness.

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The truth, I think, is that there is no planet, no sun, no dark and no light, no day and no night.

Well how does that explain when u

enter the tent that u are 'in' the universe, stars are all around u plus all these little boxes all stacked up everywhere


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Well how does that explain when u

enter the tent that u are 'in' the universe, stars are all around u plus all these little boxes all stacked up everywhere


That's easy, the Tent it's simply what's left of the shadows pushed into a small cornner of this world by the present unbalance, & the boxes 'with people in them' is simply how people tend to place their minds/selves in boxes because they seek to fit in the group or to belong somewhare in society (this world in this case), it also represents conformism, innaction & pasiveness.

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Let's take this further...there is no sky folks.

We are in a drought, dead trees, dry rivers...The only force of nature here is the sun. It provides vast heat. We live on a river and yet the miracle of evaporation has yet to produce one cloud let alone a drop of rain.

There are no seasons, and no way of counting time by the sun. If it were truly a celestial body, and we a planet in orbit around it there would be some sense of these things. It's a torch of some kind, kept in place to give us comfort, and keep us from recognizing our captivity.

There is no rain, no tide, no moon, no movement of the sun viewable by the eye. That is not the natural sky, it is the lid on our cage.

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Khal, I enjoyed reading your Ideas, as Always I am interested in hearing Other Points of View. I'm not Sure I completely agree with all that you write, but it is Nice food for Thought none the less.

Meiche, actually my First post (though Rather Long I admit) details a couple of Theories that explain how the Sun may be ever present and still Exist as a Celestial Body. In fact those Theories agree quite well with all that is Known of Modern Astrophysics as well...

About the

Tent with Night

, I believe this is a Place I must investigate further, I have heard many Rumors of this place but have not yet seen it Myself.

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Of course, the thing you speak of is another metaphor. The stuff inside is the darkness and soft circularity within us, which is concealed and frightening. It is hidden away and to confront it directly is intolerable. The thing itself represents a portable home; in dreams, houses often represent the self, and in this case the self is sort of transient, insubstantial, in keeping with what we know of our existence here.

EVERYTHING is a metaphor in this place. Its like living in someone else's nightmare but having some limited control over the events.


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Well of Course everything is Metaphor, but there is No Reason no Not view it Literally if only to Explore another way of Thought.

In some ways I think of this Realm as a Dream (as you suggest as well), but it is a Shared Dream and thus a Reality Unto itself. Everything we see can Have Deep Meaning if we Stare at it Long enough, or it can be Utterly Superficial if we let our Eyes simply wander over...


All this talk of Dreams and Id makes me think of some things which Relate to the Sun and the Moon, which in themselves represent the Day and the Night. The Sun is often Thought to Represent the Waking Mind, the Ego... while the Moon represents the Unconscious, the Id.

So in this World that is governed by our Collective Thoughts, a Balance of Night and Day would represent Reconciliation of sorts with the Ego and Id (I'm using these terms a little Loosely).

This also makes me Wonder if there is Further connection to these Ideas in the Story where

Marind shouts "The Carnival... It Awakens!"

Perhaps the Carnival is part of this Ego, this Waking Mind...

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  • 2 weeks later...

If you all don't mind going back from the metaphorical to the physical, I would like to correct a factual error: the sun does indeed move, even if it doesn't set. In chapter two, after I fell asleep under the tree, this was written on my magic scroll: "

When you finally open your eyes, the first thing you notice is that although it is still up, the Sun is no longer in the same place.

" This tells us that there is, indeed, some form of rotation or orbit to the celestial bodies in this universe. It could be similar to the constant daytime that occurs every year north of the Arctic Circle, for those of you who have sojourned in the Wikipedia universe. Perhaps, then, the world in MagicDuel has a year that spans hundreds of thousands of days, so that long ago there was indeed a time when there were "periods of light" and "periods of shadow." Under the constant sunlight, however, the weather has stagnated, and that is why there are dead trees in No Man's Land. Eventually, the world will return to a time of day and night, followed by *shudder* hundreds of years of darkness. Perhaps then the Angiens will sense the need to reassert themselves and shine their light forth, just as the Shades spread forth darkness now.

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Actually Fojar, if you Read through the First Post I made (yes I know there's A lot there to Read) you will see that one of my Notes Said the Sun does move Slightly. This was my Basis for the Idea of a Stellar Companion, one Which I believe is Responsible for the Periods of Darkness. Hence I have Nicknamed this Object the "Moon" and the Moon is typically Considered the Symbolic Opposite of the Sun.

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Ah, now I see. Well then, ignore the first sentence of my post. One thing that worries me, however, is the change in the sun's size that you noticed. Going back to the "real world," because our sun is so far away, it or us would have to move many millions of miles in the few hours it took for you to see a change in size. This leads to one of several scenarios:

1. Either we or the sun is orbiting some very massive, very dark object, like a black hole. All that gravity would make the orbit very fast, allowing the changes you have observed. Plus, a black hole could distort the light coming from the sun, changing its size and position or maybe even absorbing all of it and making "periods of darkness."

2. MagicDuel's sun is actually very close to us, so it doesn't take much movement to change its size. The sun would also have to be very small to avoid frying us all into oblivion.

3. Something else completely? :)

Perhaps some more data would help. Is the path the shadow of the stick follows an oval, circle, or some sort of flower shape? Is the base of the stick inside the path, or do the shadows always fall to one side? This could help us determine if the movement is caused by rotation, precession, orbit, or a combination of two or three of these. Also, how much does the sun change in apparent size? You mention that it occurs in the same time period as the movement, but do the two cycles start at the same time? If we get lucky, we might actually be able to determine the exact nature of the motions of the celestial bodies, as well as the size of the earth and the sun (at least in units of "the stick" o.O), and perhaps the masses of the sun, earth, and moon if it exists. I hope you don't mind me borrowing the designs of some of the Instruments you used. I might have to imagine in a calculator, too :)

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I'd Rather not get too Technical about this, Remember this is More of a Theory than Hard fact...

However Don't Assume that the Changes I noticed were Large, or Happened Very Fast, I Spent a few Weeks gathering Information during my Research on this Subject.

Since it Sounds like you are Familiar with Astronomy I'll try to Explain my Thoughts a bit more Clearly.

I Believe that the MagicDuel Sun does Indeed Have a Companion, be it a Black Hole, or a Large Planet, I'm not Sure. I am Surmising that this Object is Massive Enough to Make the Systems Center of Gravity well Beyond any Point within the Sun itself. Thus the Sun Orbits a Point in Space (as do We) and is Not the Center of the Solar System (though it is Close enough in Relative Terms).

As to the Stick Experiment, if the Sun Truly Didn't Move the Shadow would Never Move. However I did Notice a Small Oscillation in the Shadow over a Period of Many Days.

If you are More Interested in the Orbital Mechanics of Our Star system Please Keep an Eye on My Papers In Game. I am Currently Discovering many things thanks to Having found a "Piece of Night" in a Very Distant Location. I am Posting my Discoveries in my Papers as I make them.

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haha, maybe I got a tad carried away with the data and calculations and possibilities (oh my!) I do that sometimes (thanks to 4 years of college specifically designed to make me think that way). Anyway, I would agree that there is more in the sky than what meets the eye. One of the big lessons that we can learn from "real world" astronomy is that if anything moves, everything moves, and the only way I see of the sun's distance from the earth, and therefore the sun's size, varying in any noticable fashion is if one or both rotate around some third object. Perhaps long ago all three (or more?) objects orbited in the same plane, kind of like the system Earth is part of, so that the sun was periodically blocked out by the Dark Object(s). Then, maybe something knocked the world out of plane (like Pluto) and tilted its axis on its side (like Neptune) so it always pointed toward the sun. It could have even been an intentional act. This is all speculation, though. I still don't discount the possibility that the sun is really some dude in a flying saucer who doesn't realize his high beams are on.

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