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significantly increase regen timers  

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5 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

 

I think the max achievable ap for general population is around 150-250ap

As in your Max AP?

why if you wanted that as the max did you put all the max ap items in the shop?

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Forgive me if I don't fully understand your changes recently. But from my point of view as an MP3 player, you're considering these changes from the perspective of a veteran player while make it even h

Impacting the timer doesn't just change AP, it impacts vitality, and a bunch of other stuff (at least I thought so). If impacting AP is the desire, what about a system that only targets AP? 

Presently, as I do observe, there are some issues both conceptually, and in terms of balance. Presently, it appears that Action-Points, or as I had suggested it be renamed, "Willpower", were the on

i am sorry its too much text for my eyes and i lost track of this discussion, tried several times to read Aia post without success.

@Chewett the 150-250 estimation was based on real values in the db for recently logged in players.

You see this the wrong direction...the shop items are not put having a purpose in mind, they are the purpose, everything else has to change around that. Giving players shop bonuses, consecutive days bonuses and bounty boxes, all have as purpose to keep them more involved, and if something needs to change is how those values will influence their activity. 

I will work on the data tools to see some real stats, then i will go ahead and change things as i think best.

I work better by first doing then explaining waht i did, than making a clar plan ahead..sorry, but you will have to read my decision once its done ..but don't worry :) nothing is set in stone, and you hopefully got used of how things change in md already :P

 

worst case scenario is that i mess things up, and you experience a couple of days of "different"

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changing the AP proportional to the maxap, as percentages for example, is bad ideea. Someone with 1000 will regen 100 and someone with 100 will regen 1, while the costs are still the same for all.

the max ap should mean how much can you store overall.

The current solution i am planning to implement is to increase regen timers by 5min and decrease regenerated ap by half, for all houses.

opinions on this? pls keep it very short, thanks 

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43 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

The current solution i am planning to implement is to increase regen timers by 5min and decrease regenerated ap by half, for all houses.

Means I am more likely to leave MD and do other things when I run out of AP.

Playing my Mp3, it struggles for AP at times moving around, it makes it more dull.

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Just now, Chewett said:

Means I am more likely to leave MD and do other things when I run out of AP.

I find that actually a good thing, let me explain why

Lets anayze the extremes...If you offer too much freedom, lets say unlimited AP.. you get a burst of activity, that could last even a couple of days, but then as this takes up too much of your time, you will leave for longer period anyway.

If the AP limitations are set right, you will return on set intervals and turn it into a routine. 

 

I am not talking about you ancient players that stay around for other reasons than actually spending your AP, i am talking about the average new player here.

Instead of having new players, spend 3 days like crazy, then leave forever or come back after a months, i prefer they spend a couple of hours a week in md, but come back recurrently for much longer periods of time.

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This sounds more like a mobile game type format. focusing on instant access to check in on a few things in bursts throughout the day. 

What are the stats of new player activity?

Just so we can ensure this works. Knowing how new players behave after the change is implemented when compared to the baseline

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i don't have stats yet, its a lot of work to get them done right, but i intend to work on this

Please keep in mind that unlike mobile games, AP in here are restricting just a small part of activities, such as exploring. Solving puzzles for example is not affected by this at all, or fighting...plus a lot of activity evolves around player interactions that has nothing to do with ap also 

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If you have 100 max health (here action points instead of health), and add 5 max health, the 5 extra max health does not matter up until the point you go below 6 current health and would have died otherwise. Decreasing our Ap gains from the timer is similar in that if we are above 0 AP the timer is practically irrelevant to how we function up until we hit 0 AP. Then it becomes a game of waiting, boring, I will sit and stare at online player list when I have nothing to do...

The point being that we have too much max AP which isnt bad, but not enough to spend it on to make it relevant. The timer is besides the issue here and I feel if you want us to have slower timers you should rather increase the AP/VE gains to keep it proportionate to how it is now.

Give us more potential, but not necessary, uses of our action points.

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1 hour ago, Muratus del Mur said:

I find that actually a good thing, let me explain why

Lets anayze the extremes...If you offer too much freedom, lets say unlimited AP.. you get a burst of activity, that could last even a couple of days, but then as this takes up too much of your time, you will leave for longer period anyway.

If the AP limitations are set right, you will return on set intervals and turn it into a routine. 

 

I am not talking about you ancient players that stay around for other reasons than actually spending your AP, i am talking about the average new player here.

Instead of having new players, spend 3 days like crazy, then leave forever or come back after a months, i prefer they spend a couple of hours a week in md, but come back recurrently for much longer periods of time.

I can understand this. Let’s see how it goes when I play with it with an open mind.

Do you think MD has enough “return factor”?

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3 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

i am sorry its too much text for my eyes and i lost track of this discussion, tried several times to read Aia post without success.

Apologies - to summarise, with boots, there is no value in AP and max AP, so fix this by giving them value somehow, and then balance the regeneration around this.

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1 hour ago, Chewett said:

Do you think MD has enough “return factor”?

depends on player. If curiosity to see what else is there is not a main driving factor, probably not...but i am counting on this because without this curiosity, the players are not the type of people i am looking for. I never intended to make md a casual candycrush game.

There are things to return for daily, what we are missing are constant activities, but again, i am counting on the npc fights to fill this game. The plan is to have npc fights fill this gap when there are not enough people, and revive the heads and torch to make real events.

I am also preparing seo and advertising, and really doing desperate things like giving inactive people credits or wp via email, just to get out of this collapse. With more people online, activities start to show up. 

The entire range of things i am doing towards this goal, are in a way shifting the activity balance. There are less attractors and important aims right now, because i moved some of them (like wp), more "in" the middle area of this balance, and this is good. The new attractors that will cause motion will be to perform activities to obtain new creatures.

If only i could keep up this volume of work 2-3 more months, and things will get back on a functional track. I am doing my best.

This is something that i should have done years ago, to not let MD crash into this state. Now its harder to bring it back up from nearly zero...but not impossible. The people currenlty having the A25 tools are the last standing core of what md is, and i am counting on them to help in this process, because anything i could do, is not enough if the tools are not used right.

 

@Aia del Mana the above answers you also what my plans are regarding everything, AP value included. ..i hope

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I believe you're rushing changes too hastily without examining the consequences. This, and the previous change made to recruit, fundamentally altered how the game functions, and is severely detrimental to new players. Coupled together, you've essentially make acquiring creatures extremely time consuming and harsh. There are much, much less damaging approach towards your goal.

First, too much of the game is currently tied to AP, and even more, regen timer. Like many have pointed out, this is akin to a mobile energy system. It is gating, annoying, and overall limit gameplay. MD is supposed to feel "open", a player driven narrative, and a mechanic to specifically manipulate how player plays is detrimental to the core experience. A game isn't a chore, it isn't a shipment package. Rewarding constant periodic activity taken too far ruins a game as a game. It isn't flexible. It's a task, rather than an experience. The old system was fine, limiting player access via other conditions and mechanics. It is hard to play a game that tries its hardest to make you not play it. It is hard to play a game that punishes you every step of the way, for not being familiar with how the system work.

Second, I'd vote against re-packaging current content as a harder-to-obtain "new" content. What's not broken should not be tampered with hastily. Adding NPC removes the needs for player interaction, which I would vote against, and much consideration should be made to make these encounters meaningful.

 

Finally, if you insist on making AP a more valuable, strategic resource, then adding a new type of resource altogether, with the desired lowered regen would be better. AP is tied to too many different interactions to change, especially with how sweeping and drastic your idea is. Overall, these sweeping changes, most of which behaves as either nerfing or rebranding content isn't going to encourage players from returning. Add new experiences, contents, or at the very least, something to draw the player's attention, not a meaningless hiatus waiting for a timer to go down.

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Considering the actual change was not by far proportionate with your "enthusiasm" against this...i think the isaue must be somewhere else and not with the announced change.

I would understand this repky to the 6 hour regen proposal, but not to what i announce.

Maybe i am wrong, idk, but for now i stand to my decision.

If anyone has better arguments why to make ap back to being virtually unlimited (because with the old regen they never actually got to zero in a normal exploring session)

Let me know

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Currently I doubt I will notice this change, only when I hit 0 action points which only really happens if I cross a huge gate, then I will notice and be annoyed. The problem is that newer players will much more often hit 0 action points, this hurts them not us.

The past approach to our action points was to give us viscosity, then to give us action points for active days, then to increase costs for gates, then to give us cartography. Excuse me if I miss one, like land loyalty, or this was out of order. But to put it in general terms: Higher AP cost, more AP, higher AP cost, lower AP cost.

I'm glad to see you try something new, reduce our AP gains, but I don't think this is the correct solution to make AP meaningful. I think action points were most meaningful right when viscosity was introduced, before we accumulated huge action point stores that are simply going unspent. Since you want us to have these large stores of action points, it makes sense that we could gain less action points over time but this doesn't really end up in us running out of points unless there are sufficient sources to spend the AP on, which I don't believe there are. All this does to us is make the regen period when we run out longer, and that is frustrating. With the increased max AP it already took longer to regenerate it all, this just double punishes that.

Even viscosity itself is meaningless now with land loyalty. Maybe make viscosity bypass land loyalty and cost AP no matter what. This makes land loyalty somewhat useless for ap reduction so you can also add an extra ap cost like the East has to all lands, this ends up hurting new players again though.

Edited by Mallos
changed part of suggestion, so many edits...
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Change isn't always good and meaningful, and if a change serves no purpose than a potential annoyance, I will point that out. AP problem being that it's a gateway, something preventing players from playing. To what extent would this be reasonable? My opposition does lay a bit elsewhere, rather in how reckless pushing changes without the proper care and consideration would do. Rather, a much, much shorter regen timer, with lower maxAP, would be, in my humble opinion, preferable. Through which, max AP would be the desired meaningful resource.

Also, merely dismissing isn't a counterargument, it's simply avoiding concerns without addressing it.

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31 minutes ago, fallen god said:

Change isn't always good and meaningful, and if a change serves no purpose than a potential annoyance, I will point that out. AP problem being that it's a gateway, something preventing players from playing. To what extent would this be reasonable? My opposition does lay a bit elsewhere, rather in how reckless pushing changes without the proper care and consideration would do. Rather, a much, much shorter regen timer, with lower maxAP, would be, in my humble opinion, preferable. Through which, max AP would be the desired meaningful resource.

Also, merely dismissing isn't a counterargument, it's simply avoiding concerns without addressing it.

i actually think a faster regen timer with less ap per tick would be better. that way new players regen vitality faster to heal creatures, but ap becomes more valuable.

Edited by Syrian
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i would propose something like, from the OLD values:

reduce timer by 20% ( so that short timer's don't get even more ahead of the rest)

decrease AP per regen by 50%

 

this ends up with fairly similar values. i won't go into too many lands because spoilers, but for an eg, no homeland:

24753ed07b850f04924f3418d1934dc1.png

 

this would have the same result as above, making AP more valuable, but allows other stats to regen faster. when i was a newer palyer my main problem wasn't AP, it was vitality to keep fighting, and having a faster time means more VE, which actually makes AP spent on healing creatures more valuable as you are much more likely to have VE when it comes to healing something.

 

this also has the added benefit that periods of activiity can be closer together. i also think you could go much further with this and maybe even reduce the timer's by half and further reduce the AP per tick, but that would be an extreme 

edit: here as an example of the extreme case. have not checked this for all lands however. ap per regen reduced to 33%

cacef8785ef6eb1e18887006850a2377.png

 

edit again: actually checked al lthe extreme examples. most of them bar a few outliers are actually *closer*  to the current values than the original idea.

 

if anyone wants the full table that i drew up, send me a pm and i will consider sending it depending on who's asking

Edited by Syrian
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I have attempted to experiment with the last remaining boots which were outside Necrovion.

I have managed to extract of their essence and distilled it into a bottle, I believe, however, an odd side-effect doth occur upon consuming it. It seems that it doth make one significantly lighter - presumably this is how the boots did float - however, it also seems to make one significantly less sturdy, including of one's being and of one's armour also. Still, the desired effect persists. I have replaced of the bottle at the Howling Gates.

 

The Lorerootian Guards did think it a good idea that their foes should fight without statistics or armour, and have requested a similar flask, which I have readily provided.

Edited by Aia del Mana
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8 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

Have you considered the fact that longer timers means longer time you can keep stats over max?

at the time, i hadn't, that's a pretty good point, i can certainly see argument for it both ways when that's considered, at least in terms of AP. short timers means there can be more aggressive boosts arnd more planning is required. long timer's has much more stability to it. 

i personally benefit much more from a longer timer, but i don't think that helps much in the way of newer player's. my main reason for the shorter timer was VE recovery, so maybe that can be addressed some other way, possibly by a buff from sanctuaries? something that maybe accerelates the regen timer or restores VE , but movelocks the player

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On 3/1/2020 at 11:02 PM, Aia del Mana said:

It doth appear that the advantage of a long interval were in the presence of sources that would grant points (of vitality or AP or otherwise) above one's maximum, whereas if these were not present, then there would be an advantage in a more brief interval.

I had quite thought that this had been my consideration for a longer timer, although I apologise that this is buried within the post.

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7 minutes ago, Chewett said:

If you wanted to massively increase it, how would someone deal with this without more advanced combat knowledge?

Winertia:-2959181/275873

One might consider to visit the Broken Pattern Gazebo and solve the puzzle within, by which time one may assume her Worldly Inertia will have returned to positive balance.

 

Facetiousness aside, one may assume that one with this statistic of maximum Winertia would also possess of some Luck, which may allow her to walk around and gain some proportion of it.

Edited by Aia del Mana
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I have been thinking about this too, as for newer players, the slower Vitality regen was a concern, as was the Winertia. For newer players, we could increase the number of free regeneration rituals in the shop by 2, which would make vitality less of a concern. Still drawing a blank when it comes to Winertia, though that too could have a booster in the shop for newer players.  Obviously this has the drawback that new players think that the shop holds all the solutions for them.

I've only proposed patches, not solutions. Mainly because putting stuff in the shop shouldn't be the solution for hardly anything, but it is the only one way I can think of that wouldn't create further issues with tinkering with game mechanics. As changing game mechanics always has unforeseen consequences.

Also, even new players can get to negative Winertia, particularly if they recruited a creature and then got hexed as they went through MDP. With negative luck it becomes catestrophic.

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