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Ungod

So how do we measure time in MD?

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How we look at time is basically like this, no? :

d/V. Basically, it's about movement over a distance. If an objects doesn't travel, time doesn't 'pass'. Now, we might say time still passes, by looking at other objects that move, but measure it in relation to the object that stands, and you have zero. 

So how do we measure time in MD? Can't do it by looking at the sun that 'moves', and bet on the day-night cycle. If you measure it relative to the moment you get 1 more AD, you have a 'day' there, but we can all agree time is measured here in relation to an exterior system of reference, right? 

What happens in MD that we can take as reference point? For example, the lights shooting up from the angien egg could be one, but the interval is too short. How can we obtain 'a day', measuring time by  something 'internal'?

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Hmm? No ideas? There are a bunch of events, but i don'r rhink we have the right kind. Like, rain - it has different intervals. Because if there are no such events, i would like to propose one - but only if tgere aren't.

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Sorry I must have lost this in the shuffle of all the anniv/plushie stuff!

I remember an English teacher telling me "fiction should always be referred to in the present tense"

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I do think that time were a construct, that may give purpose to those who keep it, and whom use that given them, in purpose. Yet, it were possible for one to experience it, and yet, perceive the same passing to be of different interval.

If this were so, should not time be measured by ephemera, those happenings that do arise, and are soon fleeting? It were only in their memory that one may measure it in accord with another, if none do perceive the passing in precisely the same way.

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1 hour ago, Aia del Mana said:

should not time be measured by ephemera, those happenings that do arise, and are soon fleeting?

Yes, it's like that. So what are those regular occurences in md that can be used to measure time? (I mean 'internal' occurences, like rain and such, not the ST). 

If you are in the realm of MD and have no clock, how do you know what time it is or how much time has passed?

Edited by Ungod

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4 hours ago, Ungod said:

Are you saying the time you spend in md is fiction? :P

As me, the player or me, the character?

The character has a bit of trouble with the idea of time as a whole.

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Not all beings in MD experience time in the same manner.  Not all lands and scenes do either.  How the subject and the location's times interact can even make new ways of perceiving time in that given moment.

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1 hour ago, Nava said:

Not all beings in MD experience time in the same manner.  Not all lands and scenes do either.  How the subject and the location's times interact can even make new ways of perceiving time in that given moment.

Example, please.

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Necrovion is one such example, certain parts more thematic than others, depending on what you're looking for.

And beings? I'm not one to share personal information. But we exist, have existed, and will exist.

Edited by Nava
Meow and truth

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The relativity of time is not something i'm ready to delve in; i was thinking in classical terms.

i know the topic doesn't seem like much, but i think it is relevant; vould it be that we live in a time where time is an oppresor, so we dismiss talks about it?

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13 hours ago, Ungod said:

You, the player.

I measure time by the server clock, my regen timer, my tools and attack cooldowns, etcetcetc

13 hours ago, Ungod said:

and why does pipstickz have trouble with the idea of 'time'?

Why don't you ask him? ;)

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14 hours ago, Ungod said:

The relativity of time is not something i'm ready to delve in; i was thinking in classical terms.

Yet, it is something you must delve into if you wish to discuss time in MD.  You must explore this and look beyond your current interpretation of time.

14 hours ago, Ungod said:

i know the topic doesn't seem like much, but i think it is relevant; vould it be that we live in a time where time is an oppresor, so we dismiss talks about it?

Time is only an oppressor if you make it out to be one.  And, in that case, 'tis you who oppresses yourself.

We mustn't dismiss talks.  But we also musn't dismiss exploration of how time operates in ways imaginable and unknown.

 

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12 hours ago, Nava said:

Yet, it is something you must delve into if you wish to discuss time in MD.  You must explore this and look beyond your current interpretation

Maybe you're overestimating me ? :P i am weak in math/physics, actually.

I was thinking that since we don't have an internal phenomenon that could tell time relative to it, we make it - more specifically, we make the tides of the lake ftom the SAL 'real'- And tell time from a cycle depending on water

Edited by Ungod

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the issue here is that Md as a system does not experience time/entropy. its a fixed system that if left by itself nothing will move or decay. the concept/feeling of time applies to the players. think of Md as more of a 2d plane of existence while the players exist in 3d space, we have an extra dimension above the game in which we can experience time. any passing of time that we want to relate to has to be done in this plane rather than within the game itself. it's like looking in a mirror, the reflection itself has no memory of time but the object's its reflecting, do. the reflection has the illusion of time as it reflects the changes of time outside of its plane, but it does not directly experience it. your question is asking how do we quantify something within the game that isn't there to be quantified? things like AD and regeneration intervals exist for the player only, essentially above the plane that MD exists on. 

Edited by Syrian

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Thank you syrian, for pointing out what others alluded to. I don't think i would have thought MD has no time

At the same time, the players need to measure time somehow, but if we can't do it relative to happenings in md...

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I don't understand if there is simply no way to tell if u or the bus next to u is moving does that mean both are standing? What happens if u are not looking or u have no way to look? Nothing. Would it change if that was an isolated environment? NO If it was an illusion? Yes. Perhaps changing reality is possible, it should be possible, humans (clowns) are not so talented unfortunately xD

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9 hours ago, ignnus said:

I don't understand if there is simply no way to tell if u or the bus next to u is moving does that mean both are standing? What happens if u are not looking or u have no way to look? Nothing. Would it change if that was an isolated environment? NO If it was an illusion? Yes. Perhaps changing reality is possible, it should be possible, humans (clowns) are not so talented unfortunately xD

I mean there's instantaneous velocity vs average velocity distinction, instantaneous is technically immeasurable (I think) but it's still calculable and therefore "real" enough for me at least.

11 hours ago, Ungod said:

Thank you syrian, for pointing out what others alluded to. I don't think i would have thought MD has no time

At the same time, the players need to measure time somehow, but if we can't do it relative to happenings in md...

Sorry! Hinting and alluding is second nature most of the time!

Do you remember your childhood memories in order? Or are some stronger than others, and so they come to mind first? That's how it is for me, everything's a jumbled mess...none have timestamps, I have to figure out from context every time I try to recall something. Similar deal with MD's time, in my mind. It's not a line but a plane with peaks and valleys (literally and metaphorically :p)

Cyclicity governs essentially all our perceived time within MD, actual time principle does other things, or perhaps it's a combination of the two. Though my intuitive understanding says Time Principle governs things that are not time itself within MD.

 

Also welcome back ignnus, stick around! (or maybe you've been lurking all this time) Plz find me ingame if you can, I'd love to chat.

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Quote

I mean there's instantaneous velocity vs average velocity distinction, instantaneous is technically immeasurable (I think) but it's still calculable and therefore "real" enough for me at least

very determinist of you

Quote

Also welcome back ignnus, stick around! (or maybe you've been lurking all this time) Plz find me ingame if you can, I'd love to chat

you catch me at gateway aramory i'm lurking there once or twice a week xD

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So i've done some more thinking and saying md doesn't experience entropy/time is a bit forced. The reflection/mirror analogy is awesome, but even there we can talk about 'existence', no? If we say something exists, then we automatically give it a timeline, right? 

For example, our species has lived outside time a long time ago. The planet, too, is probably living outside time. It lives, moves, will die some day, but it's us that say the earth has an age. Without us, would the Earth have time? Would it age like we say it does?

That means that, just like with magicduel, we give 'things' 'time'. But that doesn't mean things don't actually exist, don't move or experience entropy...or wait, maybe they don't? If you are not measuring time for something, it's not real/alive? Like, the dirt was just that, and when we understood the mechanisms of our planet, only then it became the Earth. Uhh...i think we're bound to discover more and more things as we grow, if so.

Anyway, when we discovered time, it was done by referring to a celestial body, so technically we measured tim on Earth relative to something 'external', even though it was perceived as internal? I mean, the sky is basically part of the earth, no? Does that make the image of the moon an external point of reference or internal, to the system?

correction: the image of the moon is the image of dirt, and so they're both 'external'. That's because we are the measuring system. I got it wrong because i was thinking 'earth+us'. So that makes the question of whether you can tell time in md by something that happens in md as a system still valid.

Ugh...i don't get it anymore. I'll read this again tomorrow, it makes little sense now.

Edited by Ungod
done some correction today

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I've done some more thinking and now it's like this (like Syrian put it) : md does experience time, but it's our time. Just like any other thing. Also, if man told time by, say, the phases of the moon and the day-night cycle, if you talk about external or internal points of reference to the system, then you either say both moon and earth are internal, or external. Same with MD - so the integrated clock is like the moon, already a part of the system. Therefore, you can't measure time in md relative to something that happens in md. 

which should have been obvious from the start

 

 

 

 

 

 

edit: ah, but, if you 'create' tides in md, assigning, say, a 4 hr interval (saying it's 'an hour'), and use that to 'tell time', what you do is create a new time (for yourself). Which is interesting...

Edited by Ungod

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I read through this quickly, so I may have missed if anyone suggested this, but as a core value of MD is in the other players, I measure time as interactions between players and other players or players and the environment. If no one is present, time might as well be standing still.

Quote

 

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

 

There are, of course, things that happen if no one is present, but nothing too important.

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