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Muratus del Mur

Why resources get consumed in stacks

How resources work  

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I received this PM in-game and thought to reply it publicly because this interests all of you

 

Quote

Hello Mur,

i just have a question to the resource processors that you implemnted.
I just thought that it wasnt reasonable to waste all the resources, for example:

user has 200 toxic plants, the resource processor needs only 20,
now the user gets 1 bottle of toxic extract and the stash of 200 is gone, wouldnt it be more logical to give the user 10 bottles then?

I just want to understand the reason behind that.
It would be nice if you could explain that to me

greetings MaGoHi

 

Right now it might seem very unfair what is going on, because you collected resources and now they became equally worthy like the tools of someone collecting them much more recently. It is true, but it would have been unfair to allow you to start with the enormous stockpiles too. I allow you to split stacks with wishpoints, its still better than nothing.

 

Now the why

this system is designed in such a way that it will actively influence grinding and turn it from a retard-repetitive action, into something that will make you think from time to time. When you gather enough resources, you could go on and collect more (pointless but possible, or not so pointless depending what you aim for, like byproducts for example). OR you could be a little bit smarter and go ahead and process those resources on one of the many ways that are now available or will shortly be through the use of fillable clickables. In this way, the gameplay accommodates grinding too but gives it a slight twist, making those that are more careful and strategic do better over those that are just repetitive and ignorant.

Also, this is a representation of expiry term for some resources (true not for all). For example, you gather tree bark, but after you gather a lot, the old one will start to rot as you pile up new stacks over it. In reality, you never get 1+1+1=3 with hgih accuracy, you will get something more like 1+1+1=2.8 so to say. This is just a minor factor anyway but its supposed to make resources a concept that referrers to them in terms of "enough" or "not enough" and not as quantity. We need quantity count however because enough might be one value for one thing and an other for the other thing.

Its a lot more interesting and strategic. Having things this way is unique , you can't find it in any game, yet if seen in terms of enough/not enough, it makes perfect sense. Getting byproducts only if you dont have them, allows for the careful players to gather more by passing them to an aid, and encourages cooperation. Also it puts the map in motion, people will have to migrate to different places to actually use tha gathered resources. This combines perfectly with the land loyalty system that gives points depending where you are, in other words, depending on where you perform your activity.

 

Hope it helps understand this concept better and endure the sudden economic collapse easier :P

 

 

 

 

Edited by Muratus del Mur

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There was no way to use most of the the raw material and for a lot still ain't. So now when someone has gathered for 3-5 years you want them to throw it all away? Splitting once by two with wp is not even close to sane. 

 

In short, Mur you want people to pay for the lack of comprehensive development.

 

Meh, why not, I personally avoided getting any big piles.

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Getting big piles was a risk, was also greed. No, i am not "punishing" anyone, it is just the pain that comes from making things right. I didnt change anything! resources where always made to work like this, you know this from transferring them for example, that a pile is a pile not a number. I can't mutilate the system that was designed in a very good way just because using it will hurt some just in the beginning. Also, i am not done yet with the fillable clickables. What is better, to have a nice way of how things work and some will suffer a bit in the beginning, or having a flawed and common system but nobody will suffer at all? I picked the first option.

 

You may call it "lack of comprehensive development" ..i could call it "greed not always means wealth"

People gathering enormous piles where not greedy, but they gambled a bit with this, it was a risk they took..as i said the way resources worked never changed but its just visible more now. I had no idea that the fillable clickables will flood the realm, but i knew resources will be used in piles, and always announced and said that.

 

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Well one could easily have assumed that used in a pile means like the way the memory stones work. Just pass the pile and then get it back with some used away. 

 

I'm not against the pile system. I just think that maybe a onetime free splitting would be nice. With a loss. Say split in half lose one half and then split the other half into 6.

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a one time free splitting would take a VERY long time to heal its wounds and balance back to how it should be.

in that time people that gathered the big piles will get benefits impossible to get afterwards from the others (or not impossible but unlikely anyway)

 

i am still open to be "convinced" about this, but for now i believe this should be treated without mercy for the sake of the economic balance

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I recall from a long time ago, when resources got introduced, there was another reason for resources not to be split...

MD is less about objects and more about the concept of an object. The number of the resources you have was not seen as representative just of how many of them you had, but of your current familiarity with the object. You can't hold two ideas of what an identical object is at the same time (well, you can but that's a discussion for another time) so splitting resources would not make sense.

I'd write more on this, but unfortunately I'm pretty time poor right now. I'm sure someone else could write it up (dst might even have logs from those discussions)

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This has been a long time coming:

Still I'm not sure if I'm too fond of the way fillable combiners practically destroy all excess resources. Why not make it so that when you use a fillable clicky it transforms all your resources, but using a certain function gives you more results depending on how much you put into them. For example every following high level resource requires twice as many resources to make. e.g. For 1 item you pay 20, for 2 you pay 20 + 40 = 60, for 3 you pay 20 + 40 + 80 = 140 etc.

This way resource hoarding is still heavily discouraged, but you still preserve some of the purity of the original stack, similar to the 1 + 1 + 1 = 2.8 example.

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because it would void the concept described above, if i put numbers to it then its just a very inefficient conversion, but if its just about having enough or not, then the concept remains pure. This what you describe might be useful just for a one time "fix" for current piles...i am not sure yet if that would be fair as i said in the last message...still might be a compromise to do one single time...not sure......... (i am 80% inclined to say no to it)

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Not that i speak alot on the forums, i tend to listen and not speak then to speak and sound stupid. But My two cents on this is that MUR's idea is right.

the idea behind resources is not to hoard, that goes against the basic tenants of the the game. The Game is about balance, just as in fights and in relations so should it be in collection of resources. if you hoard the resources (as well as the tools) then that creates an imbalance in the game and starts a cascading failure of the rest of the game. 

if you only need 20 wood and you have 34 then to maintain balance you should loose your entire pile. (not every peice could or should be perfect and you would natually discard a piece based on condition or age) also depending on the age of the pile you should loose resources naturally. (due to decay or wear and tear on the pile cause you tech. carry it around with you....)

The harvesting of resources should be one of a conscience effort not a ignorant rape of the land.  

that's my 2 cents on this issue.

Haustorium

 

 

 

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the real problem here is that regardless how good or bad this system is, people think first of their immediate interest ...and of course if they gathered resources for so long they will not like the way it is now and won't even think of it in terms of good or bad but in terms of "good for me / bad for me"...sadly

Like many times in md history i had to take decisions without listening to what people "like" otherwise md would have been a disaster.

anyway, hold on to your resources don't spend them yet, i am still thinking of a way to give something different to those using oversized piles,...but no way they will get a result proportionate with the pile...its simply not the way resources should work in here.

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11 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

Also, this is a representation of expiry term for some resources (true not for all). For example, you gather tree bark, but after you gather a lot, the old one will start to rot as you pile up new stacks over it. In reality, you never get 1+1+1=3 with hgih accuracy, you will get something more like 1+1+1=2.8 so to say. This is just a minor factor anyway but its supposed to make resources a concept that referrers to them in terms of "enough" or "not enough" and not as quantity. We need quantity count however because enough might be one value for one thing and an other for the other thing.

...

Hope it helps understand this concept better and endure the sudden economic collapse easier :P

Of course this is not fair.

It is like : with age you get more experienced, but you also get old which means that you forget and thus each month you lose 10% of your stats.

Or you could say : for those new players out there to have a chance, we'll limit the stats at 500 so all the grinders out there ... tough luck.

 

Counter examples to "always":

You said that it has always been considered that resources should be used as a whole stack ... then, I am sorry, but I have to contradict you. There are plenty of uses where you use the items on as needed base:

  • all recipes out there use only the required amount of resources (cake, tea, sand castle ... others can fill you in with any other recipes)
  • there are recipes that use a minimum amount and a maximum amount from a stack to produce the same amount of resource : 1-4 sand will produce 4 glass
  • usable resources get used one by one : the memory stones will get use one by one when adding heat or spells to them
  • resources get used exactly to the amount required : the bushies use exactly the amount of water required.
  • ...  well, I'll add more cases as I think of them or others can confirm & add more cases

 

Making ppl ignorant ... lol, you just admitter that YOU (Mur) are ignorant, not the others.

1 hour ago, Muratus del Mur said:

Like many times in md history i had to take decisions without listening to what people "like" otherwise md would have been a disaster.

Actually, every time you make a huge decision like this without considering at least a few of the arguments AGAINST your decision ... it is a disaster. (disasters happen on change not when there is nothing new happening. But ... please read the following so that you can at least have a chance to understand what I'm thinking of.

 

Also, you said "making those that are more careful and strategic do better over those that are just repetitive and ignorant. " ... what can we all say ? thank you ?

Other :

So, where does this system leave the trade ? Consider that I need 10 Lumber and I am offered only amounts of 50 to 200 ... they will definitely not agree to trade that larger stack for just 10 water.

 

My decision:

Unless you decide that my stacks are too huge or too old and that you want to take them away or short them out, I will keep them as they are (huge) ... somehow.

I will continue the trades in a fair and undiscriminating fashion with high regard to the time spent to gather all those resources.

 

My advice (if you don't want to take a tool and try it yourself) :

Lower the number of resources used for the combiners. I found it very funny when I've seen the amounts required like :

  • 20 Toxic Plants --- 1 Toxic Plants has 1/4 chance on gather --> about 80 uses of a basket @ 10 minutes interval --> 800 minutes if the resources are plenty & available
  • 100 Bushies --- 1 bushies =  40 water (taking the old amount) or 15 water (taking the new "smart" bushies system ... lets call it NewSystem) ---> 100 bushies = 4000 water (or 1500 water NS) @ 10 interval (up to 20 minutes depending on the tool) ---> that would be what ? 40k minutes (15k minutes NS) of constant water grinding

... I don't know other combiners now, but the amounts are hilarious to say the least. Do consider converting the resources to time and see where that leads.
 

Edited by No one

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@No one - from my experience, sand melters consumed 1-4 sand (or the whole sand stack possibly, I don't remember accurately), but no matter how much sand you gave it would still produce 4 glass. So technically the more sand you had, the less efficient it was. Also, please stop flaming on noobs, this is becoming a trend. Saying "You don't understand the implications of what you're saying." would suffice, without name calling and shaming. :) 

@ the whole rest
To be brutally honest, I think there are many inconsistencies in MD. This whole thing would just be another one of them (since some resources can be consumed individually, some can't), and to 'fix' it would just be inconsistent in itself (since it would break the consistent trend of inconsistency). I do actually find the whole snowball effect interesting :) but as much as I/we dislike it (I may not have huge stacks, but it does hinder me in trading as well indirectly), I think it is at least decent to keep things as they are (not allow splitting of resource stacks in the clickables). Not all changes in MD have to be good for us or liked by us. 

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I am sorry @Aeoshattr , last that I checked if you had 1000 sand you could use that stack 250 times resulting in 1000 glass. Meaning that using the tool 1000 times on 1 sand each time would give you 4000 glass (ideally).

Please be sure before contradicting somebody with  "possibly, I don't remember accurately". It really seems rude.

What you failed to remember is the simple thing that matters the most : YOU CANNOT USE THE SMELTER 1000 TIMES. There are very few smelters ... if still available at all.

And you also forgot that walking in MD is slow as hell. Walking from one gathering location to find a smelter (if one would be made from a clickie) would require from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. So, unless you have a smelter with you ... it becomes quite impractical. But be my quest and try it.

So, unless you want to add some math on how much time you spend for 10 or 100 or 1000 glass, then please don't post such incomplete comments.

Feel free to contact / ask me if you think that there are unclear things in my post(s).

 

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AT the tag dispatcher in LR there's a tag 'Resource merchant'. Now, that is WiP  and I have no idea what are the plans for it, but maybe having big quantities of resources can help with something related to that tag? 

 

after all, having, say 10k branches doesn't have to mean you hoarded tools and used them, you may have gotten them from trade. and maybe hoarding 10k branchs is greed...well...merchants are greedy :)

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14 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

Also it puts the map in motion, people will have to migrate to different places to actually use tha gathered resources.

In MD we have static scenes where you are at an absolute position and your interactions (many spells, passing items) are generally heavily limited to interacting with players who are at the same exact place as you. Are there any plans to make movement in MD feel more fluid? In almost any other MMO you can watch as players move from place to place but in MD the only representation we get is names in the players here box which doesn't do a proper job of displaying movement; someone can easily run past you without you noticing because it didn't refresh while they were there. In every graphical multiplayer game I've ever played if another player walks past me I can see them moving and it contributed more to the world feeling alive. Even in the one MUD I play where the game communicates with players only in text it will display "<name> arrives from <direction>" if someone enters the same room as you. In MD movement doesn't feel like movement, it feels like a lot of small hops and it's really easy to miss the hops other people make.

 

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I hesitated to state my opinion, because it seems that most people disagree with it, but here is it anyway.

Ever since i learned about resources i hoped that they will develop further, that there will be more options to process, refine and combine them into new items maybe even common items, in short i hoped that MD will develop its own industry.

So i started to collect some of the resources in anticipation of that.

 

I was happy when i saw the Annis about the resource processors and thought that my wish finally came true, with the new mineral ore, an entire new brach that opens a lot of new options and possibilities, it was even really close to what i had in mind, i made a resource map last year and put in the ideas i had, see below:

so i tried to process my toxic plants into Flask(s) of Toxic Extract, but was really disappointed when i loaded 200 something in and got out 1 instead of 10 as i expected.

I spoke to some other MDers and wanted to know their opinion on this matter, but i learned that their opinions and thoughts differ from mine not just a bit.

Aeo for example said that he thinks it is good to avoid hoarding and monopolies on resources.

 

My opinion on this is as follows:

I dont like the system how it is now, and i think some people will still hoard resources the way it is now, furthermore i thought that the implementation of more levels of resource processing will solve the hoarding itself if its done right, like this:(example has only 3 levels more would be more fun though)

First level: I collect 100 iron ore. The iron ore is far from pure and so it has to be processed for further usage.

Second level: The processor needs 10 iron ore to create 1 iron bar. Because i had 100 i got 10( the processor still uses the entire stack)(you could also add that the processors are maintained by the tiny men and they collect a fee for usage if its over the minimum needed level, so you get 1 iron bar if you have 10iron ore but only 7,8 or 9 iron bars when you have 100)

Third level: Another processor(Blacksmith) is used to forge the Iron bar into, x screws or y nails or z gears.

 

This way, the stashes of people would decrease lose some of their value but not all of it like now.

ofc, some people would still hoard, greed is always a thing, but i think that the market will regulate, balance itself and increase the trading overall

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, No one said:

Did you noticed MaGo that the new rules will only make "hoarders" to hoard MORE ?

For the moment there is nothing (I am not aware of anything available) to use those new resources. So, consider that you and I work and convert the resources to the new resources for the next year. Wouldn't that mean that we're still hoarding ? Wouldn't that "force" new cuts in resource amounts ?

:)

 

i dont know yet it depends entirely on this:

5 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

 

anyway, hold on to your resources don't spend them yet, i am still thinking of a way to give something different to those using oversized piles,...but no way they will get a result proportionate with the pile...its simply not the way resources should work in here.

 

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for those curious where all this is heading:

- resources processed into second level resources via fillable clickies

- second level resources plus maybe other things, mixed in forked combiners to produce items

- interconnect current item features..items can start spells, illusions, can be converted into creatures, etc

- all this coordinated, if i could say that, by the tag dispatchers

- once the tag dispatchers will be well integrated in this chain, they will be able to define the "top of the top" of the food chain,

(and there is where it gets complicated...it might be the way to get A25 access but thats an other story, Power corrupts too much to leave such tools at the top of the food chain...but don't even open this topic now)

 

In this process to obtain a fluid industry, many many things will shake you. Now it was the actual use of the resoruce piles, next will be the access to various resources...because...and you won't like this...i will push md in a direction where you will do better what you do most but that will make you do worse what you do less. In other words, don't expect to be able to gather wood anymore if you spend all your time gathering water for example.

 

It is difficult to find the right balance between single player activities and multiplayer cooperation.

 

In general, you should consider this concept. When such a long chain of events is pending, whenever one of the ends remains undeveloped too long time, it will cause unbalance and will be cut off. Gathering resources without using them was one such end that remained opened too long ...do not expect me to change the shape of md to accomodate the abominations created by the "inconsistent development"

 

 

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Since what I see here is that people are worried that the "effort" they put into harvesting resources is made nil by this new change, I'll add something more. I dare say that this is the case with everything in MD, so here is an analogy. It might need to be taken a bit metaphorically, I hope my point comes across.

  • Land affiliation and alliances.
    Say player X puts a vast, long-term effort into getting in a specific land, in a specific alliance. This involves spending WPs for scene access in that land, building a role suitable for that land, spending credits to train stats, organising events, and the list could go on. In the case of a takeover (with potential land-lockdown), all the effort this player put into this is immediately (and very likely permanently) made nil. Furthermore, the current perception is that it's that player's responsibility to deal with it, not someone else's. 
    The only thing Player X remains with is a permanent experience. Just like from harvesting you are left with a skill. I don't see why harvesting resources and losing large stacks that required a lot of effort is any different from any other type of effort and loss in MD.

You can lose many things in MD on a whim, and it doesn't matter how much effort and heart you put into them. 

 

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as a concept of being more familiar with an object, if i have a lot of something, i can do more with it, if a memory is stronger in my mind, i can do more with it, if i start with more familiarity of something and i want to turn this into something else, i have more to work with, this gives me more of a base to get more familiarity with the new thing i am making. So if i have a lot of Toxic plants, my familiarity is much greater, i can do more with this memory and therefore should be able to do more with it before it depletes, so i should be able to use it more and turn it into more familiarity in toxic flasks before my memory fades.  If i have an arbitrarily high amount of familiarity with toxic plants (say, 10000) how is that equal to someone who has a very low familiarity? The idea being that if you have a greater memory of one thing, any connections to another memory will also be stronger because of familiarity and the connections between the two, if you remember one thing really well you are more likely to remember an associated thing really well also.

To say that its not punishing is not correct, people have stayed in MD for years, they have invested a lot of time into its game and this is saying that you dont "care" (loose word because i dont think its that you dont care) about their effort and time investment, because now this new game mechanic that you want people to play with, is less appealing due to the removal or ignoring of their time investment. This idea punishes time investment, and i dont think thats a correct thing to do.

 

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10 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

In this process to obtain a fluid industry, many many things will shake you. Now it was the actual use of the resoruce piles, next will be the access to various resources...because...and you won't like this...i will push md in a direction where you will do better what you do most but that will make you do worse what you do less. In other words, don't expect to be able to gather wood anymore if you spend all your time gathering water for example.

Isnt this like in any other PRG when you have to decide your jobs/sub-classes and you stick with them until you do a jobc hange, but cant use the other(first jobs) skill anymore?

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Nice Syrian, it doesn't matter if i agree to you or not but finally i hear a much more md like view on things.

 

This apocalyptic view that "oh my we lose everything nothing matters" is plain stupid, There is nobody that had any sort of serious md activity and vanished into oblivion because something changed in the gameplay. If you don't remain with something well defined, such as the SKILL from gathering resources, or LAND LOYALTY from being a citizen you still remain with a combination of reputation, experience and people that know you, all that defines who you are in md. Its not the number of resources you own that defines you.

 

Its so so similar with the outer world...you remain with NOTHING, you have NOTHING, all comes and all goes, and everything is an illusion that you have something or posess something. The difference here in MD is that this "nothing" is actually much better preserved and valuable.

 

Let me puish this a bit further....one day md will be for you just a distant memory of some online game you once knew....even then! this "nothing" you cry so much about will still be preserved, the things you learn here, the changes that happen in you adapting to the changes that happen in this realm, will leave their mark on who you are forever.

 

So don't tell me about not respecting people achievements just because i decide to put the general direction of md as a priority over the selfish achievements of some. You own NOTHING. Neither do I, don't worry.

 

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