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Muratus del Mur

Favors and such

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Sometimes i talk to people, people that contact me randomly (true they might aim to get stuff)

If i see something (as in something=1) in them, i think if that something fits with what they ask, or with something else, and if that something is valuable , i tend to give it to them without much further thinking. Its a method i used over the years and it proved to be good to filter people with potential and keep them interested. 
 
This is seen by almost everyone else but me as "favors", even if i don't do them as favors. 
 
I can't make public such reasons, it would be like presenting those people naked in front of a crowd. Sometimes that something=1 is a partial thing, and they fail dramatically at other parts that are supposed for a stable role...examples are seigh, fang, other current roles..etc. Each had one powerful aspect i tried to boost by the power i gave them, simply because i thought that aspect of who they are is an important element to add to md in general. 
 
This used to work once, and i believe that when i did things this way and people had nothing to comment on it, it was good. When i became inactive, everyone started to criticize and attack such decisions, and people involved, putting them to extreme stress that actually changed them so bad that they stopped having that 'something'.
 
This is in short how i see favors, and how i see my activity in md. Tell me how you see things should be nowdays. I was the main supporter of a community driven role evolution in md, so i understand both ways, but i can't behave other than i behaved so far. I am now facing two options, and no, retireing from md is not one of them, i'll be active anyhow..but before i become a silent coder or an active dictator (with respect to council), i want this debated publicly by everyone that claims to be active in here.
 
observing..

ps. In fact i can make the reasons  public (what i saw in them)  if thats the main reason of misunderstanding , but only for failed roles

Edited by Muratus del Mur

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I can't really comment on the favoritism, but I am curious about the failed role of Seig and Fang, if you would be willing to oblige me.

Edited by Curiose

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Actually, I think I can a little bit, talk on favoritism. (I apologize if this seems hypocritical on my part, as it is not intended that way).

 

I think it is awesome that people who do truly awesome things to get the things they deserve. People who put time and effort into the growth and aid of MD deserve recognition of at least some form, because they earned it. I am going to toss out the recent example of the person who did the symbols, I think that is really cool. I didn't say so obviously because I didn't want to be spammy- I feel I have done enough of that. : p

 

Anywho. When it comes to people who have a history of doing really terrible things (like Seigheart when he stole Avvys), or have no clear understanding of social boundaries and what is, and isn't acceptable (Fang), it really makes people question. It makes it hard to put faith in a person receiving these things because history has shown that well, they can't handle responsibility, or they can't handle social pressure. (I don't personally feel this way, but it's a gander at a guess) And because of that, it makes people wary of when you hand out such large chunks of responsibility. 

 

I am sure I have much more to say on this matter, but right now I'm scatter brained with distractions so I can't quite focus.

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seigh - i saw in him someone that was fighting against all odds strongly believing in himself, a good example of self motivation. managed to do well in his silent fight with dst, my private personality assassin back then, eventually crashed..but i do think the pressure was ridiculously high on him. Had no personal chats with him untill much later when his image was already tainted.
 

fang - very very big heart, able to love unconditionally and endure hate and repeated personal hits, without hateing back, something so illusory that i gave him illusions. His reasons and aims where useless and utopic in my opinion but implied a huge risk and temptation of abuse, so i wanted to give him the desired power to see if that power corrupts him, or he realy tries what he wanted to do, never got the chance however His aimes remaine unchanged. Had personal chats with him before granting him powers, its how i discovered how he is on emotional level, and liked it. 

 

Both could have become interesting characters in md if left alone, it was me that indirectly destroyed that chance without realizing. I think both their features are still badly needed in md, but their way of dealing with public pressure was not their good side so they where exterminated, i am not sorry for this, i am just sorry of the aftermath of this.

 

Thats what i think if you want to know it so bad.

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I personally think you should always maintain a desire to reward those that stand out - but only when you are in touch properly with both the person in question, the reason they stand out, and the communities attitude.

 

The community can be wrong, and almost always is, I find, but there is always a reason for them to have the perception they have.

 

The fact that you can achieve things through actual effort in MD is one of the reasons I still recommend it to people I meet. But just because someone has one aspect perfectly aligned to a task does not make them suitable - it is the sum of their parts that makes them suitable, and you generally wont see all the many minor aspects that run perpendicular with just a snapshot.

 

Sometimes "soon" is better than now.

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Hrm... how to word my emotions on the matter.

MurMur, i think you should keep doing what feels right by you, and only you.

When were about to die, and were on our death bed, we only have to live with ourselves and our decisions.

Do whats right by you, and you can live a life of no regrets. A life of no regrets leads to a comfortable death.

Others may consider me a failed role, but i dont consider myself a complete failure. I didnt live up to my full potential either, and thats equally true.

I like to think im somewhere in the middle of success and failure. I like to think i finally know what Balance is, after all this time.

My goals have not changed. My Road may have twists and turns but the Light at the end of the Dark tunnel has never left my sight.

Im not inactive. I work 8 hours a day, but the day i leave MD for good (Which i doubt will ever happen, small breaks in between or not) is the day i finally, truly, fail Murs vision of what i could one day be.

Ive learned over time (And more so recently) how to control my feelings and words to those that can not handle them. Ive finally learned what Political Composure looks like. Ive finally realized whats expected of me and what isnt. This is my way of thanking Mur for believing in me those many moons ago (By giving him less Fang related time consuming crap to deal with/listen to).

I still help the new ones in MD out of personal greed and satisfaction. Making the Deserving Happy makes me feel genuinely amazing.

My Greed is my Selflessness
My Evil is my Good
My Darkness is my Light
And my Insanity keeps me Sane

And thats the way ill be, till the day i die with no regrets.

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What a topic ... I was waiting for this a long time seeing the chance in it to hear everyone´s opinion too.

 

My opinion on the matter of favorism.

 

1. There is no true everywhere fully excepted definition of favorism ... to say it with a quote:

 

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

 

(http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/bill_cosby.html)

 

Everyone within MD who has done something (or is still doing) important knows what this means. There will be always an opposition.

From my point of view there is no way around this and if one tries he/she will fail. So don´t even start to try (only if you would like to have the experience of this failure).

 

2. I cannot say that MD was better or not in the time you were active "rulling" the realm but one thing is for sure. As long as a community is not "equal" and I hope it will never be, there will always be the need of some leading characters. This could be a group of responsible people who are widely accepted and preferable acting without personal interest (the council of MD is supposed to have this role in our realm) or a single person. If both is missing someone (or a group) will eventually try to take this place and from my point of view thats purely natural, because a gap needs to be filled (look into nature its an "universal law"). I don´t know how to achieve this, it all depends on those again we call community. But again we are facing the same "problem" that the community will always be divided into opposing groups and the favorism comes into play sooner or later. You cannot escape.

 

3. I have no advise to give just my opinion which is again painted with the colour of my own wishful thinking. Not a single human being I have meet so far in my life was selfless acting without any desire or "ego interest". We cannot be equal (we would be machines) in thinking and feeling and I love it. I love all the friction and the possibilities of evolution which comes from it, if its used with knowledge and awareness. (Would be worth a seperate topic to discuss) 

So I would like to see the realm of Magic Duell moving forward, developing not in a particular direction but growing. From my point of view the worst thing in life is stagnation, which is for me the start of regression. I see MD in this state since a long time now. So far I cannot see the community as whole to be ready to act as one, with similar interests dealing with each other in a respectful, accepting way without losing the uniqueness of every single charcter.

At the moment I would like to see a single person playing "god" without being a tyrant or dictator (someone who is working only for his/her own interest against everyone else).

 

I wish all of you wonderful rest of the week and a perfect weekend.

 

Enjoy Life.

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Then go back to the way it was, and make them RPCs. Make them god-like and untouchable and powerful, but in turn: Hold them accountable for their powers, make them bloody HOSTAGES of their powers!

 

Pick people and give them fancy stuff. We all enjoy to see fancy stuff in action, most of it is pretty cool after all. But also give them a specific task!

Give them pieces of information nobody else has, but not general stuff. If you pick a shade whisperer, tell them something about the shades not even the king of necro knows, if you pick an illusionist, give them background on illusions, and so on. Tell them where their story is heading, and MAKE THEM MAKE IT HAPPEN! As drachorn guy, i'd love to know exactly what the drachorns can and cannot do in the future, but i can't write my own story for them because their story already exists, at least in your mind, and i simply don't know it. Can i write a story-line where the drachorns eat the tiny men and ravage Golemus? Probably not, but even that might be possible. Can i make a drachorn fly off and hide in loreroot, or do they dislike the woods? I simply don't know, and even as drachorn guy i'm not in a position to write such attributes myself.

 

ANYONE who gets something nice from you should also have a clear task assigned to it, like Eon and dst, as examples. You gave them fancy stuff (heads control and special access), and a task to fulfill (run contests with heads and spy on people). This is what MD needs more of, not random people running around with a bunch of powers, who all 'have something special' but no way to develop the things they have, because they only have powers, but no reasons.

 

And if they fail to deliver, FIRE THEM! If you set someone the task to lead an expedition to the east and find out what's behind the dry water temple, and they don't get anything done within 6 months, take away their east loyalty. If you create a role like Braiton again (drachorn mutations, for those who don't remember, which is now in the wish shop) and they don't manage to create a story about it, take it away again! YOU are still the only one who knows the big picture, use your advantages and connect the random powers you throw out to fitting tasks that drive the game forward. Give them additional informations and let them use it as they see fit, THIS can make a role happen.

 

You might think that we, as the stupid mob we are, dislike people like Fang because you give them something cool and we are jealous. Some might be, granted, but the big majority here likes to see people do something cool and awesome. But we can't respect an illusionist who talks about illusions and every second word is straight up wrong. When you give him illusions, you also need to give him some informations about illusions that are NEW, and make him present them in one way or another. He can do lectures, or talk to people, or make a quest, the only thing that he mustn't do is keep it from the public. And if he fails to do so, take away his toys again. That's not a punishment of any kind, it just happens that the role and the person didn't fit together in the end.

 

YOU can use those randomly assigned powers to SHAPE the story. You can even give people completely different tasks and just see what happens: Tell me, as drachorn guy, to take an egg from the lair and smuggle it into Necro's Graveyard, and tell Azull, as king of Necro, that there is only one important thing about his reign, that he must never allow a drachorn egg to pass the howling gates, at all. Or kick it up a notch, and tell Grido, as king of Golemus, that you expect him to invade Necrovion within 3 months, AND let Azull know that an invasion is coming, but not which army is heading at him. And if i don't manage to do anything in regard to that egg, fire me! And if Azull doesn't manage to put up a fight when Grido comes, fire him!

 

I like most of your thoughts a lot.

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Then go back to the way it was, and make them RPCs. Make them god-like and untouchable and powerful, but in turn: Hold them accountable for their powers, make them bloody HOSTAGES of their powers!

 

Pick people and give them fancy stuff. We all enjoy to see fancy stuff in action, most of it is pretty cool after all. But also give them a specific task!

Give them pieces of information nobody else has, but not general stuff. If you pick a shade whisperer, tell them something about the shades not even the king of necro knows, if you pick an illusionist, give them background on illusions, and so on. Tell them where their story is heading, and MAKE THEM MAKE IT HAPPEN! As drachorn guy, i'd love to know exactly what the drachorns can and cannot do in the future, but i can't write my own story for them because their story already exists, at least in your mind, and i simply don't know it. Can i write a story-line where the drachorns eat the tiny men and ravage Golemus? Probably not, but even that might be possible. Can i make a drachorn fly off and hide in loreroot, or do they dislike the woods? I simply don't know, and even as drachorn guy i'm not in a position to write such attributes myself.

 

ANYONE who gets something nice from you should also have a clear task assigned to it, like Eon and dst, as examples. You gave them fancy stuff (heads control and special access), and a task to fulfill (run contests with heads and spy on people). This is what MD needs more of, not random people running around with a bunch of powers, who all 'have something special' but no way to develop the things they have, because they only have powers, but no reasons.

 

And if they fail to deliver, FIRE THEM! If you set someone the task to lead an expedition to the east and find out what's behind the dry water temple, and they don't get anything done within 6 months, take away their east loyalty. If you create a role like Braiton again (drachorn mutations, for those who don't remember, which is now in the wish shop) and they don't manage to create a story about it, take it away again! YOU are still the only one who knows the big picture, use your advantages and connect the random powers you throw out to fitting tasks that drive the game forward. Give them additional informations and let them use it as they see fit, THIS can make a role happen.

 

You might think that we, as the stupid mob we are, dislike people like Fang because you give them something cool and we are jealous. Some might be, granted, but the big majority here likes to see people do something cool and awesome. But we can't respect an illusionist who talks about illusions and every second word is straight up wrong. When you give him illusions, you also need to give him some informations about illusions that are NEW, and make him present them in one way or another. He can do lectures, or talk to people, or make a quest, the only thing that he mustn't do is keep it from the public. And if he fails to do so, take away his toys again. That's not a punishment of any kind, it just happens that the role and the person didn't fit together in the end.

 

YOU can use those randomly assigned powers to SHAPE the story. You can even give people completely different tasks and just see what happens: Tell me, as drachorn guy, to take an egg from the lair and smuggle it into Necro's Graveyard, and tell Azull, as king of Necro, that there is only one important thing about his reign, that he must never allow a drachorn egg to pass the howling gates, at all. Or kick it up a notch, and tell Grido, as king of Golemus, that you expect him to invade Necrovion within 3 months, AND let Azull know that an invasion is coming, but not which army is heading at him. And if i don't manage to do anything in regard to that egg, fire me! And if Azull doesn't manage to put up a fight when Grido comes, fire him!

 

This looks very attractive and seems the type of thing many people would agree to at first glance, but really when it comes into practice, 90% people are against this. Take the most recent example of me discussing Laby stuff with Mur being highly discouraged by the community, and all kings of wrong assumptions being made.

Edited by DARK DEMON

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This is what MD needs more of, not random people running around with a bunch of powers, who all 'have something special' but no way to develop the things they have, because they only have powers, but no reasons.

 

This is like asking for god to show you the meaning of your existence while in fact it's up to you to "find" it yourself.

 

As for your last paragraph, you know it won't work mech-wise.

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All I can say is this: anticipate the consequences and act of your own accord. This has been said by many before me, and I agree because of the following...

 

I strongly feel that it's none of my business to tell anyone how to choose what their actions should be. How I think you should do stuff will never run parallel to your, or anyone else's view. There never is right or wrong, true or false, black or white - you name it - because true objectivity will most likely never exist.

 

Personally, if I deem someone's intent worthy, they are exempt from all negative consequences in my point of view. Why? Because failure is not something I believe anyone should be condemned for.

 

So again, just as others said: do as you wish and deal with the consequences.

 

To clear something up, my definition of anticipating consequences is to be informed. I keep reading that A reaction is better than no reaction - well, not exactly... a late, informed reaction is much better than a hasty one - which is < / = to no reaction, if you ask me.

 

And this doesn't apply to you alone. It's how I believe everyone is supposed to work.

Edited by Myth

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It is very late in Curi time, so I might be a bit unclear. If any clarifications are needed, I will attempt in my best way.

 

I am all for accountability, and I really like what Burns stated.  There are a lot of roles out there that have abilities, powers, paths, what have you, but no real destination nor any real "design" for effort. I'm going to pick on Rophs a bit (I apologize, and I also apologize as I really have no clear understanding of your role aside from the basics), and say that if you gave him the role that he has, and he doesn't fulfill it within a certain time period, or if his seed walks become an utter shame, then why should he still have that title and role?  It makes no sense. It is as if you're giving freebies with no sense of them understanding the gravity of what it is that they have- which is literally a game changer. 

 

If you have someone who is being an utter pill who can't have any social grace, then hell yeah, it should be the community's right to voice their opinion on the matter. We are the sound board; we give feed back on what we feel works and what doesn't. But, I can speak from my own personal experience, it seems like that feedback tends to be more on the "ignored" side, which leads to frustration, which leads to stagnation,which leads to resentment. Does that make any sense? I am not trying to pick on you at all, it's just my brain has had time to process and I'm tired so I'm chatty.

 

Once more, I am going to reiterate the fact that I am incredibly against the lack of accountability that people have for these roles (again, call me a hypocrite, but I paid my dues). And, like Rophs, am going to pick on DD because his response was brief and to the point.  People actually WANT those with these special shinies to have a big red button that could axe everything for them. It isn't a one strike you're out system, but if they mess up, then something needs to be done. I don't believe anyone is ever above that.

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This looks very attractive and seems the type of thing many people would agree to at first glance, but really when it comes into practice, 90% people are against this. Take the most recent example of me discussing Laby stuff with Mur being highly discouraged by the community, and all kings of wrong assumptions being made.

 
If you actually read what you quoted, you'd find that what i talked about it unrelated to anything that is currently happening, because Mur doesn't do that anymore. I should know, i've been the drachorn guy for ages now, and still don't know where to go with them big-picture-wise.
It wouldn't matter how you got to your stuff, if by making a quest so remarkably good that everyone wants to give you something cool, or by having an idea so brilliant that council wants to support you, or by telling Mur what he wants to hear, it doesn't matter, not when your powers aren't for life anymore. Nobody cares where you got your stuff from, what matters is if you can handle it. And if you can't, no big deal, you get fired and the next guy gets a shot.
 
As it is, all powers and roles and stuff are for life, regardless of how well you do. That's why it's unacceptable to have an inactive illusionist, because as long as Fang lives, there won't be another illusionist. Who here still knows Raven personally? Yeah, that guy was the illusionist before Fang, and he had to fall out of grace 3 times and be gone for 3 years before Fang got his chance. That's also why people don't want you to have lab-citizenship before showing that you can handle it, because once you have it, even if you turn out to be completely uncapable of doing anything sensible with your citizenship, you will never, ever lose it again, and there will very likely not be another player getting that chance for the next 2 years.
 

As for your last paragraph, you know it won't work mech-wise.

You've not seen what can be done in a proper war, one that is driven by story rather than mechanics. The Shade War worked pretty much before killing was invented. People ran around and stabbed each other in the back, and the guy who got stabbed actually died, long before there were any items at all. Big C got captured by the shades, long before there were spells that would bind him. He just played along, and got locked up.

 

I feel the need to elaborate that point some more, thus edit:

Imagine if i actually had the task to smuggle a drachorn egg past Azull. From a pure mechanical point, that takes me about 3 seconds: Grab an egg, teleport to necro, and type in chat 'Haha, i win! Suck it, Necros!'

Does that sound like it fulfills the task? Mechanically, maybe. To add something to the game, not so much. To get that task done, i'd need to find spies who can tell me when their guard is the lowest, someone who can open a way for me (and no, probably not the howling gate, too many guards there), possibly hire MB to distract them. I'd have to sneak in like Frodo, not knock at the front gates like Aragorn. Though i'd probably find myself an Aragorn for distraction.

And now imagine that 3-5 people have such a task at the same time. It's like playing Risk: I want to get my egg into Necro, Grido wants to overthrow Azull, Mya tries to steal an angien and Peace wants to sacifice a citizen of the East at Path Keeper. And we all sort of know what the others are up to, if we have good connections, and try to make use of their actions to get our own game along. That's where you get a real plot, like the Shade War.

 

I accept your point about 'finding it yourself', but if we all go around and find it ourselves, you end up with a story like that: phantasm used dagger on dst, dst used revive. The End.

Edited by Burns

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you will never, ever lose it again, and there will very likely not be another player getting that chance for the next 2 years.

Can confirm, Still have Ary Tag after resigning.... four? Three years ago?
(however there is already a fantastic new Ary in my place already. <3)

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If you actually read what you quoted, you'd find that what i talked about it unrelated to anything that is currently happening, because Mur doesn't do that anymore. I should know, i've been the drachorn guy for ages now, and still don't know where to go with them big-picture-wise.
It wouldn't matter how you got to your stuff, if by making a quest so remarkably good that everyone wants to give you something cool, or by having an idea so brilliant that council wants to support you, or by telling Mur what he wants to hear, it doesn't matter, not when your powers aren't for life anymore. Nobody cares where you got your stuff from, what matters is if you can handle it. And if you can't, no big deal, you get fired and the next guy gets a shot.
 
As it is, all powers and roles and stuff are for life, regardless of how well you do. That's why it's unacceptable to have an inactive illusionist, because as long as Fang lives, there won't be another illusionist. Who here still knows Raven personally? Yeah, that guy was the illusionist before Fang, and he had to fall out of grace 3 times and be gone for 3 years before Fang got his chance. That's also why people don't want you to have lab-citizenship before showing that you can handle it, because once you have it, even if you turn out to be completely uncapable of doing anything sensible with your citizenship, you will never, ever lose it again, and there will very likely not be another player getting that chance for the next 2 years.
 

You've not seen what can be done in a proper war, one that is driven by story rather than mechanics. The Shade War worked pretty much before killing was invented. People ran around and stabbed each other in the back, and the guy who got stabbed actually died, long before there were any items at all. Big C got captured by the shades, long before there were spells that would bind him. He just played along, and got locked up.

 

I accept your point about 'finding it yourself', but if we all go around and find it ourselves, you end up with a story like that: phantasm used dagger on dst, dst used revive. The End.

 

My example was just that: an example. I did "actually read", and I was referring to this part:

 


You might think that we, as the stupid mob we are, dislike people like Fang because you give them something cool and we are jealous. Some might be, granted, but the big majority here likes to see people do something cool and awesome. But we can't respect an illusionist who talks about illusions and every second word is straight up wrong. When you give him illusions, you also need to give him some informations about illusions that are NEW, and make him present them in one way or another. He can do lectures, or talk to people, or make a quest, the only thing that he mustn't do is keep it from the public. And if he fails to do so, take away his toys again. That's not a punishment of any kind, it just happens that the role and the person didn't fit together in the end.

 

Original statement still stands, because I'm not referring to recent events, I'm referring to the anti-Mur attitude most people have. If you don't trust him to talk to people, how do you expect him to give info?

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I have one suggestion. Pass all such rewards to the council for final decision with you personal reasons and importance attached.

 

 

Exactly what is being discussed with Mur right now. Someone else can see the solution.


EDIT:

 

As long as Mur actually replies to my emails...

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The reason why i fix roles in place and why i keep positions unavailable even years after a person fails or goes away, is because that is part of md persisntance and part of my respect for loyalty and trust.

I think any achievement in md is something very personal and should have a huge inertia in time. If i trusted you once with something, i also assume the damage that you might do with that role. Thats what i understand by full power, once yours always yours. There are very few things that could make me disobey this invisible rule and i usually try harder than you to keep your role regardless of what damage you do.

people work sometimes years to reach the point where they define a role..it should be years till it fades away.

titles will make this perpetual actually..with a new method to deal with inactivity, even short term inactivity

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I'm totally with Burns on how "favors" should be granted, meaning with an aim or a direction to follow.

 

Lately I noticed your (Mur's) excitement regarding at least a couple of things: Ackshan's post in the Dark Balance thread and Yasrin Luvien's symbolic drawings for the principles. 

I believe such people and such intuitions should be "rewarded" if you feel they deserve it.

 

Saying "in the past you would have got fancy stuff but now I can't anymore or people would start complaining" is unacceptable to me.

No use for a dead god, or a paralyzed one.

 

Of course this kind of support implies being aware of what happens in MD, this is why what Miq suggested seems a good compromise to me.

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I have stated my view on favors and all on my comment for Mur . You can read it there and if you really want to answer it ... you can write in a closed topic or anywhere else. I read.

 

@DD:

 


ANYONE who gets something nice from you should also have a clear task assigned to it, like Eon and dst, as examples. You gave them fancy stuff (heads control and special access), and a task to fulfill (run contests with heads and spy on people). This is what MD needs more of, not random people running around with a bunch of powers, who all 'have something special' but no way to develop the things they have, because they only have powers, but no reasons.

 

This looks very attractive and seems the type of thing many people would agree to at first glance, but really when it comes into practice, 90% people are against this. Take the most recent example of me discussing Laby stuff with Mur being highly discouraged by the community, and all kings of wrong assumptions being made.

DD, read up or you'll keep getting the wrong decisions.

When you read what Burns wrote ... did you considered that most of those ppl with important roles never asked for such roles? they played their roles for years before Mur has opened the eyes to see what they were doing . See all other examples we have today : Chewett (as most obvious), BFH , Burns, even Greedo, Nim, Z, and many many more.

 

On the other hand, you play for 1 month one role ... kind of alone, then expect to be rewarded. Dude, you are not a dog to get a bone when you fetch the stick. If you expect to be treated like a dog ... sniff around and see what happens.

 

 

 

Once more, I am going to reiterate the fact that I am incredibly against the lack of accountability that people have for these roles (again, call me a hypocrite, but I paid my dues). And, like Rophs, am going to pick on DD because his response was brief and to the point.  People actually WANT those with these special shinies to have a big red button that could axe everything for them. It isn't a one strike you're out system, but if they mess up, then something needs to be done. I don't believe anyone is ever above that.

As Curiose said here, because there are too many of red buttons on unreliable ppl we hate the beggars.

Sure, some ppl could handle the role but why not do it as it used to be ? Why not doing it like it was proven to work ? Why not wait for the right ppl to arise then reward them ?

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I did not go to Mur recently asking for any reward, nor have I ever during our talks expect to be rewarded. I am extremely surprised/impressed as to how you keep coming up with an endless number of these assumptions, to be honest :)

 

I've been speaking to him (not much though) for quite a long time and the only reason I did so at first was to ask if Laby citizenship was possible. Then I saw he had an open mind to it, and that gave me motivation to start it off.

 

It was my (huge) mistake to quote Burns' entire post, instead of the part I specified, so please forgive me on that.

Edited by DARK DEMON

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I think what they're trying to say is that you should have acted like the ones before you did: not go to Mur, and instead act towards your goal regardless of whether it was possible or not, running on the belief that if you strive enough for it, it will eventually become possible to obtain what you worked for.

 

That's the way it used to be done, and the way most people here believe roles should be handed out. Knowing something is possible eases the burden of achieving it. So I guess most will expect to see people being rewarded for having trust in themselves: don't ask if it's possible, but instead believe you can make it become such.

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