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Bug abuse from fang

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Same as the stuff you did. No! EVERYTHING should be on the forum. We should have a transparent system and not me reporting all bad stuff to council and then you (general you) complaining that one person got jailed, banned, punished. There are TONS of stuff players did but none of them reached the public ears and people go by the idea that those person are nice and kind and bla bla.

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Hmm, I seem to think things about MagicDuel should sorta, you know, be taken ingame. I realize the forum was the actual foundation for the game itself, but sometimes new things are better, and where would we be without the game MD itself, disregarding the forums?

 

Would you, dst (who I have no problems with ingame, although admittedly do not like on the forums) go ingame and slander Fang or whoever else left and right? Would it not hurt your own image?

 

It's like what a minecraft streamer I have the opportunity to watch on occasion said once about trolls. Just because it is the internet, does it excuse their actions? Is it not the same as what they may do over the phone or perhaps a letter? You wouldn't do it in such mediums, why do it on the internet? Think of this on forums and ingame. Can we not just be civil?

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@No one:

 

I have nothing against what dst does; even in the post which dst deleted,  I had clearly mentioned that she is not wrong.The only thing I'm strongly against is that she is highly rude when she does this and I'm quite sure it has disturbed more than one person on the forums.

 

IF she wants to post what she has found in her important job, there are better ways of doing it... and if she can't help going all personal about it (in a negative way) then she should NOT post it on the forum.

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Who are you dd to tell me not to post on the forum? And who are you to tell me I am rude? Since when are you qualified to decide who is or isn't rude? Who are you to tell me what to do and how to do it?

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This thread has great potential to devolve into a flame war. If someone can find some way of posting here while staying on the original topic, feel free to do so. Also, other threads can be created to discuss issues such as, 'How to make sure people are punished for breaking the rules of MD', and so on. If this thread becomes a flame war, however, it will be locked, so tread carefully.

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I don't see any other way to do this, I don't see any global points here, yet people seem to like it, which I find strange...so point by point, the misdirection of focus.  I will try to pull points back to topic, but not all of them can be pulled.

 

Reformatted and replaced point references with explicits, for the sake of future readers.  dst, no need to reread.

 

[spoiler]


Mainly to Seigheart & Fang:

The "bug detection" are not all skill but also will.[/spoiler]

 

The bug detection is will not to excel...it's impossible to excel in loyalty and honor.  Number one there's maximum values, number two if there's gains there's losses too, no real advantage there...besides, all MP can attack him, so with the stats changing, mp7 means a lot of loss of control over that balance.

 

 

[spoiler]


For example:

1. Fang said it blatantly, as he always does, that he "found it odd that i could still gain honor and loyalty" but he chose not to do anything because he "couldnt care less". (see my first quote above)

So, all he does / did was play the innocent card . But you are not a kid anymore. You also had a number of notifications adn thus making you guilty for you "couldnt care less".

[/spoiler]

.a.   Why would you ever give it more than a passing thought?  Combat's NOT a big deal, especially not loyalty/honor.

 

.b. seems to me mp7 was balanced even with the loyalty gains...besides, to get into an alliance, it's in leader's interest to drop your loyalty at first, cuts it exponentially.  mp7 would seem balanced even with this, at least to Fang's experience of it.  It doesn't even feel like a bug to me, reading about it.

 

 

[spoiler]2. Keeping the voice low and hoping that nobody notices is not a good practice.[/spoiler]

Disagree.  Where I've practiced it (not here) or seen it practiced (here and elsewhere, the specifics are secret) I've seen miles of growth. ( Then again, that's the real world.  Maybe this is different?  We all seem to be convinced it should be.)

 

 

.c. It's better to minimize the size of a council of punishment.  Have some people fully informed, and some people together capable of rebalancing the situation.  Minimize the latter part, there's no need to waste resources on excess punishment.

[Since this is unclear, look a couple posts down for a bigger version.]

 

[spoiler]

I have no doubt that we have been reported before and the kind of actions that you were notified (whatever that were, not discussing them here) but there just one issue : NOBODY ELSE KNEW.

 

So, now, dst chose, no doubt, this path due to the lack of result on her important job.

[/spoiler]

Won't disagree dst's job is important, but important jobs mean prioritizing.  Combat's not important, and this doesn't affect the balance of combat much at all anyway.

 

[spoiler]If you read the first topic again, you will notice that it was not mean or ill intended (as we all know she can write) but just as a notification.[/spoiler]

 

I don't get that impression.

[much removed.]

 

 

[spoiler]So, please, do restrain yourself on accusing unless you want to prove something.[/spoiler]

Separated because I don't see the connection between this and what preceded.  I do agree that accusation without proof is silly.

 

 

 


[spoiler]Most bugs were never notified on forum due to the gravity of the situation. This  one instead needed to on forum due to its kind of abuse : "ignorance".[/spoiler]

This perspective is imbalanced in the same two ways.  Gravity is minimal, bringing something to the forum means extra fallout.  Harder to balance situation, bring it to forum if need be.  Easier to balance, keep it away. 

 

[spoiler]

 

You Fang are an idiot, we all know it and we "love" you the way you are.

 

Let me explain you why I tell you you are "an idiot".

Dst's actions caused & FORCED dozens of bug fixes.

Dst's actions caused features.

Dst's actions cause the logs that you can all check.

Dst's actions made MD safe for you , you idiot.

[/spoiler]

I once again don't see the connection.  The past is the past.  The artifacts of someone's influence aren't their influence.

 

Moreover, the current influence seems to be doing more harm (all to players) than good (all to game i.e. meaningless.  See .a. that a minor combat advantage is meaningless, but in the same way, so are many other so-called features).

 

 

[spoiler]


Fang, Seig, and all that took their side: take all the above as a friendly RL advice .[/spoiler]

I do have to say, I find this phrase "and all that took their side" equivocal in a dangerous way.

 

[Multiple points removed.  I said something stupids and insulting, mostly to dst but also to others.]

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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I love how you think that I don't influence features anymore :D. Ignorant, that's what you are.

Btw: I tried reading your post but except the part where you say that what I did in the past doesn't matter, I have absolutely no clue what you are saying. The ideas are so vague and the references to points are hard to follow that I give up and I will not read it a second time.

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 The ideas are so vague and the references to points are hard to follow that I give up and I will not read it a second time.

Don't worry, I took a lot longer to write than you took to read, that's the only problem.  Others will maybe get it.

 

I read it a couple of times but still dont really get some of your points, Its a rather disjointed series of points.

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You mean this?

It's better to minimize the size of a council of punishment.  Have some people fully informed, and some people together capable of rebalancing the situation.  Minimize the latter part, there's no need to waste resources on excess punishment.

 

What do you mean by "minimize size of a council of punishment"?  How do I choose SOME people to fully inform?

What do you mean by "Have some people fully informed, and some people together capable of rebalancing the situation"?  I don't understand the sentence if I add the second part.

What do you mean by " Minimize the latter part"?

What resources are you talking about? Define excess punishment.

 

As I've said before: I DON'T understand your post at all. Enlighten me.

Edited by dst

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You mean this?

What do you mean by "minimize size of a council of punishment"?  How do I choose SOME people to fully inform?

What do you mean by "Have some people fully informed, and some people together capable of rebalancing the situation"?  I don't understand the sentence if I add the second part.

What do you mean by " Minimize the latter part"?

What resources are you talking about? Define excess punishment.

 

Better, thanks for helping me.

 

I don't think more people should be involved in a punishment than have to be.  Mur said somewhere public shaming's an extra penalty, beyond just the penalty itself...well, the forum's where public shaming happens now.  Except now it happens first, before the situation's even corrected.

 

How do you choose who to fully inform?  You find those who knows the situation well e.g. those whom the abuse harmed, and the abuser, and you have some agent who's familiar with the conditions necessary for game/world balance learn from them what needs fixing.  The pool of such agents is really really limited.  Mur, Chewett, etc.

 

Second part just means after you figure out what went wrong, you need someone with corrective powers to solve the imbalance.

 

Minimize the latter part -- why should more people be involved in correcting the situation than necessary?  Public shaming, again, all it does is weaken people without productive result.  Anger, jealousy, wasted words are all weaknesses.

 

Resources -- where there is weakness, there was strength.  You're making players into inferior players.  Excess punishment -- more work into rebalancing the situation than is necessary.  The result is a pendulum, abuse, apathy, abuse, apathy, etc.

 

EDIT:

 

 As I've said before: I DON'T understand your post at all. Enlighten me.

This is just to note that I hadn't seen this when I wrote the post.

[E2: insulting phrasing to this edit removed.  I regret that I was so quick to point this out.]

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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In 90% of the abuses/wrong stuff cases, I go directly to council. That is why you don't know for example that I reported Menhir for alts abuse. Or some other players for the same thing. Or rumi and darkraptor (mostly rumi - darkraptor was quite a collateral). Some were dealt with, some not. I didn't quite pursue the ones that didn't because they were at their first offense. But with others like fang, fenrir, phantom orchid, NO. They have been accusing me of all sorts of things IN PUBLIC. So I reply with in the same way. Eye for an eye.

 

Then there is the "what did they do?"  factor you or mallos raised at the beginning of this topic. mallos knows most of the stuff because they are buddies in crime but since few things are public he just plays the innocent card. So no, I will not hide the garbage under the carpet anymore. When it comes to certain players OR certain kinds of abuses (like cybering for example) expect to see things on forum.

Edited by dst

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[removed.  If it applies to you, then you know what I said here.  I regret saying it out.]


 

Shaming is a very bad habit.  And it is not worth the fallout.  That kind of revenge hurts everybody, direct or no.

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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I have been doing it for years because I am playing for years.

Also, before Council there was only Mur to go to and you know how he is. So for me the only way of acting was to make that info public. And it works. Every time a thing goes public, it is solved one way or the other. So why should I stop using the method that actually produces results?

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I agree with dst. If you want to see something happening or seek justice or do anything that needs some kind of recognition, forum is the best way to deal with it. MD doesn't work without publicity or behind the scenes. Be it the council, mur or any governing body in MD as a matter of fact. PMs or mails very rarely give results.

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[spoiler]

 

Better, thanks for helping me.

 

I don't think more people should be involved in a punishment than have to be.  Mur said somewhere public shaming's an extra penalty, beyond just the penalty itself...well, the forum's where public shaming happens now.  Except now it happens first, before the situation's even corrected.

 

How do you choose who to fully inform?  You find those who knows the situation well e.g. those whom the abuse harmed, and the abuser, and you have some agent who's familiar with the conditions necessary for game/world balance learn from them what needs fixing.  The pool of such agents is really really limited.  Mur, Chewett, etc.

 

Second part just means after you figure out what went wrong, you need someone with corrective powers to solve the imbalance.

 

Minimize the latter part -- why should more people be involved in correcting the situation than necessary?  Public shaming, again, all it does is weaken people without productive result.  Anger, jealousy, wasted words are all weaknesses.

 

Resources -- where there is weakness, there was strength.  You're making players into inferior players.  Excess punishment -- more work into rebalancing the situation than is necessary.  The result is a pendulum, abuse, apathy, abuse, apathy, etc.

 

EDIT:

 

This gives a different twist to your message.  Cute.  Didn't see it earlier, as it wasn't there.

 

I don't see any other way to do this, I don't see any global points here, yet people seem to like it, which I find strange...so point by point, the misdirection of focus.  I will try to pull points back to topic, but not all of them can be pulled.

 

Reformatted and replaced point references with explicits, for the sake of future readers.  dst, no need to reread.

 

[spoiler]


Mainly to Seigheart & Fang:

The "bug detection" are not all skill but also will.[/spoiler]

 

The bug detection is will not to excel...it's impossible to excel in loyalty and honor.  Number one there's maximum values, number two if there's gains there's losses too, no real advantage there...besides, all MP can attack him, so with the stats changing, mp7 means a lot of loss of control over that balance.

 

 

[spoiler]


For example:

1. Fang said it blatantly, as he always does, that he "found it odd that i could still gain honor and loyalty" but he chose not to do anything because he "couldnt care less". (see my first quote above)

So, all he does / did was play the innocent card . But you are not a kid anymore. You also had a number of notifications adn thus making you guilty for you "couldnt care less".

[/spoiler]

.a.   Why would you ever give it more than a passing thought?  Combat's NOT a big deal, especially not loyalty/honor.  You'd have to be insane, a bug checker, or someone with way more won fights than the average player such that it'd be harmful to you.

 

.b. seems to me mp7 was balanced even with the loyalty gains...besides, to get into an alliance, it's in leader's interest to drop your loyalty at first, cuts it exponentially.  mp7 would seem balanced even with this, at least to Fang's experience of it.  It doesn't even feel like a bug to me, reading about it.

 

 

[spoiler]2. Keeping the voice low and hoping that nobody notices is not a good practice.[/spoiler]

Disagree.  Where I've practiced it (not here) or seen it practiced (here and elsewhere, the specifics are secret) I've seen miles of growth, faster than you can imagine. ( Then again, that's the real world.  Maybe this is different?  We all seem to be convinced it should be.)

 

 

.c. It's better to minimize the size of a council of punishment.  Have some people fully informed, and some people together capable of rebalancing the situation.  Minimize the latter part, there's no need to waste resources on excess punishment.

[Since this is unclear, look a couple posts down for a bigger version.]

 

[spoiler]

I have no doubt that we have been reported before and the kind of actions that you were notified (whatever that were, not discussing them here) but there just one issue : NOBODY ELSE KNEW.

 

So, now, dst chose, no doubt, this path due to the lack of result on her important job.

[/spoiler]

Won't disagree dst's job is important, but important jobs mean prioritizing.  Combat's not important, and this doesn't affect the balance of combat much at all anyway.

 

[spoiler]If you read the first topic again, you will notice that it was not mean or ill intended (as we all know she can write) but just as a notification.[/spoiler]

 

I don't get that impression.  It's not a big offense, she calls it a big offense.   About as inoffensive as calling someone a cow.  She seems eager to dish out punishment, which I get that she is but by saying that you sic the whole community onto someone, especially someone as hated as Fang or Seig, and the fallout is just too big.

 

 

[spoiler]And if you, Seig, say that making public a kind of abuse is "ostracizing" the person ... then you are sympathizing with the guilty due to same kind of actions.[/spoiler]

 

 

Why does it matter why he is sympathizing?  There's no reason anyone should suffer excessively in this world, least of all as punishment.  If you ostracize someone, you're pulling us all down unless he's really hurting our minds or bodies (e.g. he's a leper, or a tzaraath.)


[spoiler]So, please, do restrain yourself on accusing unless you want to prove something.[/spoiler]

Separated because I don't see the connection between this and what preceded, despite use of the word "so".  I do agree that accusation without proof is silly.

 

 

 


[spoiler]Most bugs were never notified on forum due to the gravity of the situation. This  one instead needed to on forum due to its kind of abuse : "ignorance".[/spoiler]

This perspective is imbalanced in the same two ways.  Gravity is minimal, bringing something to the forum means extra fallout.  Harder to balance situation, bring it to forum if need be.  Easier to balance, keep it away. 

 

[spoiler]

 

You Fang are an idiot, we all know it and we "love" you the way you are.

 

Let me explain you why I tell you you are "an idiot".

Dst's actions caused & FORCED dozens of bug fixes.

Dst's actions caused features.

Dst's actions cause the logs that you can all check.

Dst's actions made MD safe for you , you idiot.

[/spoiler]

I once again don't see the connection.  The past is the past.  The artifacts of someone's influence aren't their influence.

 

Moreover, the current influence seems to be doing more harm (all to players) than good (all to game i.e. meaningless.  See .a. that a minor combat advantage is meaningless, but in the same way, so are many other so-called features).

 

 

[spoiler]


Fang, Seig, and all that took their side: take all the above as a friendly RL advice .[/spoiler]

Taken and regurged.  I do have to say, I find this phrase "and all that took their side" equivocal in a dangerous way.

 [spoiler]

 

"no one can hear DST scream."

 

Ignoring feedback based on personal relationship makes you , anywhere in the world, a popular moron.

 

You will be popular as long as the fuss is en vogue and until you fall all the way down.[/spoiler]

Hit the nail on the hammer.

 

[/spoiler]

Ackshan, you are asking the exact questions that most MD ask and you are right to ask them :

 - why all this fuss on such a small matter

 - why this when there were other bigger

 - the penalties are to huge when they did almost nothing

 - it is not dst's job to give the penalties

 - some are ostracized by you (dst)

 - and after all ... which is an abuse and which is not ?

 

This is exactly why ALL abuse should reported on the forum. As dst said above, most of her job goes unseen and directly to the council following properly & long since established way .

In order to answer to all the questions listed above, all she needs to do is to write ALL the reports on forum. Then you will understand.

I will not even try to argue your reasons or anyone else for contesting her topics (I do have slipups). I only try to see the gravity of her report and the impact on MD / MD ppl. That is all we all have to see and learn to see.

There is nothing "so unimportant that doesn't need to be reported"; everything has to be reported. The council is the one that will say if it is a bug/abuse and will be fixed or if it will stay like that even if it should be avoided. It is not us / dst to assume the "council"'s job.

 

In return to her job, all you do is to argue her "reasons", not the "proofs" and in the end the most ostracized person on the forum is still dst.

 

Did you ever considered that the only "reason" for reporting a bug / abuse is that it is the correct / fair way ?

 

Have you ever considered to give her a rewards for being the oldest and most constant  in her role ?

 

-------------------------------

Now a little philosophy:

"The past is the past."

--- correct when you talk about the past actions

--- incorrect when you are talking about the actions that are continued in the present

--- incorrect & highly unfair when you talk about a person. Your past is what you are and will be. If you don't have a past you don't exist.

For example, I can talk to you Ackshan just because in the past you chose to name yourself Ackshan. If we are to ignore that information ... then we would be ... like molecules of water in the ocean = a nobody.

Edited by No one

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1.[spoiler]

Ackshan, you are asking the exact questions that most MD ask and you are right to ask them :

 - why all this fuss on such a small matter

 - why this when there were other bigger

 - the penalties are to huge when they did almost nothing

 - it is not dst's job to give the penalties

 - some are ostracized by you (dst)

 - and after all ... which is an abuse and which is not ?

I will not even try to argue your reasons or anyone else for contesting her topics (I do have slipups). I only try to see the gravity of her report and the impact on MD / MD ppl. That is all we all have to see and learn to see.

There is nothing "so unimportant that doesn't need to be reported"; everything has to be reported. The council is the one that will say if it is a bug/abuse and will be fixed or if it will stay like that even if it should be avoided. It is not us / dst to assume the "council"'s job. [/quote]

2.

[spoiler]

In return to her job, all you do is to argue her "reasons", not the "proofs" and in the end the most ostracized person on the forum is still dst.

 

Did you ever considered that the only "reason" for reporting a bug / abuse is that it is the correct / fair way ?

 

Have you ever considered to give her a rewards for being the oldest and most constant  in her role ?

[/spoiler]

-------------------------------

Now a little philosophy:

"The past is the past."

--- correct when you talk about the past actions

--- incorrect when you are talking about the actions that are continued in the present

--- incorrect & highly unfair when you talk about a person. Your past is what you are and will be. If you don't have a past you don't exist.

For example, I can talk to you Ackshan just because in the past you chose to name yourself Ackshan. If we are to ignore that information ... then we would be ... like molecules of water in the ocean = a nobody.

 

1.I think I might agree having heard, but again not sure what you're saying.  If it has been solved (and maybe even if it hasn't) and doesn't involve spoilers, maybe an anonymous form should be shared on the forum.  I'm not sure I disagree.  I think it would be really informative and helpful.  Is that your essential idea?

 

re: Not to us to decide whether to implement a fix:  Again, failing to see the relevance.  The abuse fix isn't the problem here, we're talking about the abuser's account/attitude.

 

2. [removed.  If it applies to you, then you know what I said here.  I regret saying it out.]

 

Don't have time for the rest of the post, will come back in a couple hours.

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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Okay, part three:

 

 

-------------------------------

Now a little philosophy:

"The past is the past."

--- correct when you talk about the past actions

--- incorrect when you are talking about the actions that are continued in the present

--- incorrect & highly unfair when you talk about a person. Your past is what you are and will be. If you don't have a past you don't exist.

For example, I can talk to you Ackshan just because in the past you chose to name yourself Ackshan. If we are to ignore that information ... then we would be ... like molecules of water in the ocean = a nobody.

 

I've read the Time Principle too.  I don't disagree that past choices shape a person and shape his world around him (and worlds of others), and his world in turn shapes him.  That a past choice can both influence a person and change the influences coming in from around is central to understanding all kinds of things.  

 

Thinking about it now, the familiarity we have with the source (correct or imagined) of those influences of which we're the source, allows us to more naturally reflect on ourselves, and that feedback is actually the source of our free will.  It is precisely in how we respond to the aspects of our reality that seem shaped by or in model of our past decisions and experiences that we have the opportunity to change ourselves, separating past from present and removing part of those decisions from our being, in a way.

 

It seems to me like the currently discussable results of a person's actions, since they're exactly what free choice comes from, are exactly the thing we can't judge them on.  We can only try our best to correct the situation without upsetting it in some other, worse way.

 

[Rudeness/hypocrisy attempted to be removed...:( so much work to do]

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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1) I don't play a role. I am not a character. I don't rp and I hate rp-ers and rp-ing most of the time. I have A JOB.

 

2) I cannot care less of what you think of me (that I did bad or good or that I am rude or whatever). I only care when you accuse me of things I haven't done. And if you don't bring evidences (this is for you po! :D) then you're defo on my black list.

 

3) I don't expect rewards from anyone and especially not from you. I have achieved almost everything I wanted in MD. I am not looking for "spiritual rewards". I don't look for fame (although it came to me by itself). The only thing that is rewarding to me in MD at this point is information. And you Ack* have none to provide. Except the occasional trolling (see this whole thread). For some personal reasons I kept posting in this thread and I might post some more but to be honest this is just me killing time: you'll not understand anything from what I am and what I am saying and what I do and I will probably not bother carefully reading your post because they are chaotic (I cannot find a better word). As you see, I only answer few things: the ones I understand from your posts. And I think this thread is not the first time I say it. There are other few players which had (or have) a similar way of writing. Guess what? I never read them and sometimes that worked in their disadvantage. Oh well...tough luck.

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Just noting that I went back through my posts...had a sinking feeling about much of what was said, and wasn't able to see what exactly was wrong until the problem was pointed out to me, far too recently, in something I heard.  It's pretty obvious, but because it was so recent that I learned it, I won't elaborate right now.

 

 


 

2) I cannot care less of what you think of me (that I did bad or good or that I am rude or whatever). I only care when you accuse me of things I haven't done. 

 

For some personal reasons I kept posting in this thread and I might post some more but to be honest this is just me killing time: you'll not understand anything from what I am and what I am saying and what I do and I will probably not bother carefully reading your post because they are chaotic (I cannot find a better word).

 

dst, consider this an apology for undermining you by using words to put in question your ability to think for yourself...I should have said much less here than I did.  I can't truly take back what I said and any effect that had, but I'll try to be more careful...

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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I realized that the above is empty without some explanation of what exactly was removed.

 

At several points I had been re-stressing things for no reason...like "people shouldn't suffer" well of course not, but maybe something seems more important than that.  "Why am I reading this, how dumb does he think I am" well...sure, we can all think for ourselves, you didn't need to here this and this.

 

In more than one place I pretended your confusion was just their refusal to think, well of course not...if I don't seem to have something worth hearing, why should someone bother to understand.

 

Probably worst was to keep pointing out things dst had done and their consequences, as if she doesn't know or can't figure it out.  It's really not my business to be thinking for her, especially not if its her job, where obviously she'd spend a lot of time thinking.

 

If you want you can bring in the worst of it, it is pretty bad.

Edited by Ackshan Bemunah

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the thing with dst, as I have found, is if you don't do anything shady/play fairly/do as you are told by the powers that be and ask clarifying questions when necessary, you don't get grilled.

Simple, no? Edited by Curiose

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