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Elthen Airis

Protector Pact

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[i]Items of this sort could be quite useful for the worshipping, don't you think? [color=#0000ff][Refering to [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/13791-wts-unrefusable-answer-pact-for-credits/"]http://magicduel.inv...ct-for-credits/[/url] , Burns][/color]

At the moment someone becomes your worshiper he is granted an item that creates a pact like this one with pros and cons, influenced by your actions.
Of course, so is the worshiper himself. That would force certain actions. After all the worshiper is supposed to follow any orders from his master. On the contrary, the master is quite obliged to help and grow his worshipers. If you don't meet the requirements you'll have to do something to compensate your incapability.

Just a thought after reading the item's description.

Elthen[/i] Edited by Burns
added split information

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A nice thought indeed. So nice, in fact, that it deserves a thread all to itself. Split to New Ideas.

I'm not sure if the worshiper-worshiped connection is quite as big as it should be. I mean, without intending offense to any of the recent MP6, but we don't quite match up to the earlier protectors, imo. Even Raven did more, and i think most vets would agree that he did a rather poor job compared to Savelfuser.

I wonder if you have any thoughts about how to rate this, though. One might be a highly capable protector and foster worshipers very well, but they could demand impossible things and just grab the compensation. The protector still can't pick his worshipers after all, they can just come and go.

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I agree worshippers should do more than bug people to follow them.

It would be nice to see some benifit from worshipping someone, from the POV of older players, instead of they can give you 20 vital energy. Demanding things and other such things would be cool, since we are "tied" to them until they fall, we can vote for them by adepting them or not, if they are mean and we want them to fall.

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[i]I remember when i started playing i read the description of becoming a worshiper of a Protector.

I'll quote it here just in case someone hasn't figured it out.[/i]

[quote]
Type in the playername you will worship. Player must be MP 6 and you will get in a close gaming relationship with him. You must respect and obey your protector, denying your protectors wishes or changing him [b]WILL COST YOU DEARLY[/b]. Your protector will have [b]LIFE AND DEATH[/b] powers over you.
[/quote]

[i]I thought it's quite a decision to actually involve yourself to such an extent with another player, even allowing him to play with your life, in a way. Lately i've been noticing that becoming MP6 is nothing more than just healing your worshipers and trying to get your hands on as much as you can. I doubt that was the initial idea of the Protector/Worshiper relation, so this is a thread to actually see different ideas on how to make this harder and probably worth your while.

Of course, we now have the option of creating items with certain capabilities, which could aid in this case. Please share your thoughts on the matter.

P.S. Thanks Burns for the new thread.[/i]

[i]Elthen[/i]

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[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Some thoughts which came to my head the moment I saw this brought up :)[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]1) Adepting shouldn't be taken that lightly. A person should adept someone who is [b]really[/b] his/her teacher. This, I humbly propose that once someone adepts a "master", this bond may not be removed without the master's approval (through some coding, ofc). This would not only make this kind of bond stronger and with more meaning (rather than just clicking of buttons to help someone) but it would allow new people to search and learn to be with a teacher. If you're an adept of someone, it should be a clear sign that another teacher should not interfere with the master's ways.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Edit: A Protector of some people doesn't have to be the Protector of the whole of MD. Only those who are actually learning from the "master" are their proper adepts. Influencing such as "Oh everyone is the adept of XXX nowadays so you should adept XXX too" or "YYY is much cooler than XXX, so you should adept YYY" would be wrong.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]2) Reduce the number of adepts required to be Protector to 15, or even 10. The intention would be that people will now take adepting more seriously, and will think a great deal about choosing someone as their master. Thus, gaining adepts would not be that easy. And anyways, once the bond between an adept and master becomes strong, it would be difficult to maintain 20 other similar bonds. Almost impossible, actually.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]3) If the above two really do come into being, Protectors should really be equipped with [i]some proper things other than heals[/i] to make that bond stronger.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Edit: Also, adept days requirement would also have to be increased a bit again so that someone doesn't adept someone without knowing the bond.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400][b]It should help the adept more than the Protector. The adept should not do someone a favor by making him MP6 cause he is asking or wishing for it. Rather, the Protector should be the one who is working hard enough to devote himself so that the adept can learn.[/b][/color][/font]

Edited by DARK DEMON

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[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]1) Adepting shouldn't be taken that lightly. A person should adept someone who is [b]really[/b] his/her teacher. This, I humbly propose that once someone adepts a "master", this bond may not be removed without the master's approval (through some coding, ofc). This would not only make this kind of bond stronger and with more meaning (rather than just clicking of buttons to help someone) but it would allow new people to search and learn to be with a teacher. If you're an adept of someone, it should be a clear sign that another teacher should not interfere with the master's ways.[/color][/font]

I would disagree one teacher shouldnt help someone else, specifically restricting yourself to one teacher could have adverse affects, like if a teacher tells you to join every land just to get land loyalty. If you talked to just them and they said it was ok, then you might think this behavior is the norm.

There are many peolpe who dont have, nor will be learning any more in MD, who should they adept, no one?

I see adept as being fluid and worshipper being strong. Worshipper works as you described, they cannot leave after they have done a lot of work with you. Just changing them to now being able to quit until they drop makes this better. Furthermore as i said above, voting via adepting someone else, would be a path along the way of leaving them, but reducing their adepts and making them more likely to fail.

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]2) Reduce the number of adepts required to be Protector to 15, or even 10. The intention would be that people will now take adepting more seriously, and will think a great deal about choosing someone as their master. Thus, gaining adepts would not be that easy. And anyways, once the bond between an adept and master becomes strong, it would be difficult to maintain 20 other similar bonds. Almost impossible, actually.[/color][/font]

This sounds like you just want to make it easier for people to upgrade their creatures...

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]3) If the above two really do come into being, Protectors should really be equipped with [i]some proper things other than heals[/i] to make that bond stronger.[/color][/font]

As i have mentioned before, discussions for improving protector powers turned into a mudfight with one previous protector screaming that she was being penalized and such. When i actually went to talk to protectors privately only one person actually gave good feedback.

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Edit: Also, adept days requirement would also have to be increased a bit again so that someone doesn't adept someone without knowing the bond.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400][b]It should help the adept more than the Protector. The adept should not do someone a favor by making him MP6 cause he is asking or wishing for it. Rather, the Protector should be the one who is working hard enough to devote himself so that the adept can learn.[/b][/color][/font]

I see adept being on a path to worshipper. Essentually your idea but switching adept for protector with a couple changes.

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[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1363014831' post='133789']
I would disagree one teacher shouldnt help someone else, specifically restricting yourself to one teacher could have adverse affects, like if a teacher tells you to join every land just to get land loyalty. If you talked to just them and they said it was ok, then you might think this behavior is the norm.
[/quote]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]I see your point :)[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]But what I meant was that the adept should not have the same relationship with his master than with any other teacher. Lots of people will still guide that adept, so I do think that the adept will be warned if the master is getting "out of hand...."[/color][/font]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1363014831' post='133789']
There are many peolpe who dont have, nor will be learning any more in MD, who should they adept, no one?
[/quote]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Well, actually yes. If there is no more to learn (which is kinda impossible) or if you don't want to learn more, then why "leave your life" in the hands of a Protector? [/color][/font][font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400](Thus, I had proposed some real tools to punish bad adepts/worshipper, as well as the restriction that one cannot change an adept unless the "master" allows <--- it will make people think twice before adepting someone)[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Like I emphasized before too, helping someone else be Protector shouldn't be the case. [/color][/font]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1363014831' post='133789']
This sounds like you just want to make it easier for people to upgrade their creatures...
[/quote]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Same as above, that people will think twice before adepting someone, hence it'll be difficult to upgrade crits, not easier.[/color][/font]

Edited by DARK DEMON

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Just some quotes and some comments:

It is kind of silly but why not ? You said it.
[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1363014831' post='133789']
There are many peolpe who dont have, nor will be learning any more in MD, who should they adept, [u]no one[/u]?
[/quote]
[quote name='DARK DEMON' timestamp='1363018278' post='133790']
[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Well, actually yes. If there is no more to learn (which is kinda impossible) or if you don't want to learn more, then why "leave your life" in the hands of a Protector? [/color][/font]
[/quote]

I don't mind trying to help and it would be the first time. And I do think I have more to offer then a mere young protector.

Unfortunately, ppl choose me just before they leave as I have 11 "INACTIVE" adepts and the "1 adept" that I should have I can't find in my list. I think that either gods of ghosts like me too :P.

Just for fun: Even the mighty Wodin Ullr seems to be my adept.

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Just offhand, Why do we have fixed numbers of adepts needed to become a Protector? Why not have the active person with the most active adepts automatically become a Protector? Base the number of Protectors on the number of active players in the game. 1st Protector has the most adepts, 2nd Protector has the next lower amount of adepts, etc

active: players who have logged in in the past 7 days.

I do think that Protectorship should be more than a popularity contest and would support ideas that would move it in that direction.

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I think it would be neat if there could be different 'classes' of Protectors, where one class of Protector has totally different spells than another. It is called worshipping a protector. Why not make it so the protectors are like a pantheon of gods? There'd be protectors of destruction, healing, harvest, etc. In addition to giving heat, worshippers can sacrifice relevant resources to empower their protectors. And no, protectors wouldn't be actual gods, they'd be powerful, specialized, magicians.

I would like to see more long-term protectors myself. Perhaps keep the number of adepts needed to become a protector the same, but after say, a week, reduce the number of adepts required to maintain protector status by half.

I'm not giving these suggestions so that I can be lazy though. If any changes are made, I want it so that protectors still need to work hard and be creative to be really good protectors. (Which I hope to be).

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[quote name='Laphers' timestamp='1363063387' post='133869']
Just offhand, Why do we have fixed numbers of adepts needed to become a Protector? Why not have the active person with the most active adepts automatically become a Protector? Base the number of Protectors on the number of active players in the game. 1st Protector has the most adepts, 2nd Protector has the next lower amount of adepts, etc

active: players who have logged in in the past 7 days.

I do think that Protectorship should be more than a popularity contest and would support ideas that would move it in that direction.
[/quote]

People who didn't want to be MP6 would suddenly become MP6 all the time. The idea behind what you said is sound however, I also dislike that its a fixed number like it is. Perhaps adepts could be waited based on active days, like voting for citizenship? Just a random thought first thing in the morning.

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[quote name='Jester' timestamp='1363876989' post='134253']
Perhaps adepts could be waited based on active days, like voting for citizenship?
[/quote]

More weight for less age or for more age?

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[quote name='Ivorak' timestamp='1363884746' post='134254']
More weight for less age or for more age?
[/quote]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]IMO, more weight for less age, cause that's when the adept learns.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Adepting someone just to help make that person Protector should be less, whereas a real student-adept should have alot :P[/color][/font]

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The weight based on age is the most decent idea I have heard in a long time. Alts would be indeed a problem but I think we can counter it by adding other variables I don't know: closeness to balance for example (first i though of number of wins or loses but we do have alts that were made for farming so...that was a no no), number of crits, <insert others>. We design a nice formula and a minimum number of points and voila!

Also, I love the idea of different types of protectors :D. How I see it: first 2 stages are normal for all of them but based on the spells you cast on those 2 stages (amount or other variable) you become one of the protector types. For example: you cast weaken, otherarmy, etc --war protector, heal, give vital, boosts --healer (or whatever you wish to call it) and so on.

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[i]Well, i've talked with quite a lot of previous MP6 players and i got some interesting ideas.

Firstly, reasons why you might want to become MP6 have been:[/i]
[spoiler]- Upgrading creatures
- Obtaining the spells
- Helping others[/spoiler]

[i]Lightsage gave a very curious idea on involving Protectors with lands. That's by giving them the power to regenerate resources more quickly(due to a spell of sorts) or making others gather more resources for a limited time, let's say, just to name a few. I'm not sure about my opinion on the matter. You could state yours.

The problem is we don't really have enough players to support too many MP6s in the game. From my personal observations i'd say not more than 3-4 at a time. What would bring a little more adepts to the game is perhaps include in the requirements of advancing to MP4 adepting someone. Now, even if you could quickly change your preference as adept you'll still be obliged to have one. I've seen players with no adepts, i believe that will help not only to people searching for adepts, but to new players as well. That will also encourage a closer relationship with the player you are trying to convince taking you as adept.

Afterwards, advancing to MP5 could require becoming a worshiper of another player. I reckon you see the big picture already.

Last but not least, there should absolutely be an option for players who have adepts or worshipers to remove them. I'm sure there are people flooded with inactive adepts. Or well, if not a button to actually remove them, at least they shouldn't be shown in your adepts/worshiper status bar. It should only state the active ones.

Elthen[/i] Edited by Elthen Airis

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[quote name='Elthen Airis' timestamp='1365251374' post='134673']
[i]Princ Rhaegar gave a very curious idea on involving Protectors with lands. That's by giving them the power to regenerate resources more quickly(due to a spell of sorts) or making others gather more resources for a limited time, let's say, just to name a few. I'm not sure about my opinion on the matter. You could state yours.[/i]
[/quote]

I'm sorry, you must have mixed me up with somebody else :)
I didn't give that suggestion (at least I don't have memory of it). I was saying that current state of protectors allows open interpretation of a specific MP6 player, allows him to create a cult like Savelfuser did, or something different, depending on RP, but that I encourage interface addons that will allow more 'depth', depends on the addon itself. (my words summarized up) That you shouldn't enforce a specific kind of approach for protectorship, rather leave it for the individuals to develop it in their own way for themselves.

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[quote name='Elthen Airis' timestamp='1365251374' post='134673']
[i]Princ Rhaegar gave a very curious idea on involving Protectors with lands. That's by giving them the power to regenerate resources more quickly(due to a spell of sorts) or making others gather more resources for a limited time, let's say, just to name a few. I'm not sure about my opinion on the matter. You could state yours.[/i]
[/quote]

There was discussion of having Land protectors with the planned tag system. But it appears people do not feel the system is worthy of work so it is being worked on later rather than now. Along with intergrating the treasuries into lands, HC rewards into them, and monarchy/leadership/merchanting situation into these tags, along with more uses of resources and additional abilities for tag based resource gathering. Making lands much more indepdent of Mur and the council essentially.

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[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1365263424' post='134680']
I'm sorry, you must have mixed me up with somebody else :)
I didn't give that suggestion (at least I don't have memory of it). I was saying that current state of protectors allows open interpretation of a specific MP6 player, allows him to create a cult like Savelfuser did, or something different, depending on RP, but that I encourage interface addons that will allow more 'depth', depends on the addon itself. (my words summarized up) That you shouldn't enforce a specific kind of approach for protectorship, rather leave it for the individuals to develop it in their own way for themselves.
[/quote]

[i]Yes, apologies, Rhaegar. It's true, it was Lightsage who gave the suggestion about resources. I changed the post.

Anyway, continuing on-topic age related solution to adepts is indeed a wonderful idea. However, i reckon it'd be better if more weight is given on players with more age, considering they hardly change their adept choice(due to loyalty to a person who introduced them into the game, due to the fact that no everyone could actually teach you more at the level, etc.) and having less weight on new players. Now the exact ratio should be considered if everyone agrees to the idea.

Elthen[/i]

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[quote name='Elthen Airis' timestamp='1365279523' post='134711']
[i]Yes, apologies, Rhaegar. It's true, it was Lightsage who gave the suggestion about resources. I changed the post.

Anyway, continuing on-topic age related solution to adepts is indeed a wonderful idea. However, i reckon it'd be better if more weight is given on players with more age, considering they hardly change their adept choice(due to loyalty to a person who introduced them into the game, due to the fact that no everyone could actually teach you more at the level, etc.) and having less weight on new players. Now the exact ratio should be considered if everyone agrees to the idea.

Elthen[/i]
[/quote]

I disagree, its about 50:50, there is a group who stubbornly wont adept anyone helpful, and some that primarily swap between many. Im normally in group 1, and my reasoning is no one has actually ever come to me asking me to adept them with a good reason. Iv got the usual spam that people send out, and thats just spam.

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[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1365280619' post='134712']
I disagree, its about 50:50, there is a group who stubbornly wont adept anyone helpful, and some that primarily swap between many. Im normally in group 1, and my reasoning is no one has actually ever come to me asking me to adept them with a good reason. Iv got the usual spam that people send out, and thats just spam.
[/quote]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Not even 50:50 for that matter. IMO new:old weight ratio should be at least 70:30. There are some who spend hours with newbies teaching them daily. Those are the real adept relationships.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Giving more weight to vets gives them another power to decide MP6's and choose when their time is over, etc. They are not the people needing help; the newbies are. I've seen many new players take adepting seriously and most definitely loyal. I don't see that in most of the vets, but again, that's only what I've seen and I may be wrong.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Elthen kinda stated the opposite, Chew. I've seen it for myself.[/color][/font] Edited by DARK DEMON

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[quote name='DARK DEMON' timestamp='1365314211' post='134721']
[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Not even 50:50 for that matter. IMO new:old weight ratio should be at least 70:30. There are some who spend hours with newbies teaching them daily. Those are the real adept relationships.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Giving more weight to vets gives them another power to decide MP6's and choose when their time is over, etc. They are not the people needing help; the newbies are. I've seen many new players take adepting seriously and most definitely loyal. I don't see that in most of the vets, but again, that's only what I've seen and I may be wrong.[/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]Elthen kinda stated the opposite, Chew. I've seen it for myself.[/color][/font]
[/quote]

You have not understood my post, i should have quoted the specific passage "[b]considering they hardly change their adept choice(due to loyalty to a person who introduced them into the game, due to the fact that no everyone could actually teach you more at the level, etc.)[/b]" but it was neigh impossibly on my phone.

When looking just at the vets, there is about half of them that will regularly adept the people who want to become protectors and the other half that will keep the person they follow and never change it, even if they are not going for MP6. My comment was not talking about the weighting at all DD. I stated my reason for not adepting a new wannabe MP6, because none of them have actually come to talk to me.

I agree the idea that one of the main ideas of protectorship is to help newer people, and also agree that somehow the newer players being your adept should matter more. You just didnt understand my post lol.

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[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]There was no misunderstanding about your post. [/color][/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#006400]I, too, made a mistake in quoting, so my apologies. Mine was a reply to Elthen, except the last bit where I thought you meant 50:50 weight.[/color][/font] Edited by DARK DEMON

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