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Grido

Demotion of Phantom Orchid

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I have tonight been informed of something which saddens me. In the steps leading up to Phantom Orchid being promoted to LHO (Promoted 18-Sep-2011) she sold an exploit to a player (for a rip-off price as well) - this happened in the period of time between my enquiring opinions from current LHOs for the basis of her promotion, and the act of promoting itself.

The exploit/bug itself isn't overly serious, it's been known about for a while and not so much abusable, the issue stands that she was at the time trying out to be an LHO, and then became one. Selling bugs or exploits, of any sort, is NOT lho behaviour.

She has now been demoted after the short period of 9 days as an LHO. She will not have the opportunity to become an LHO for a period of at least 1 year from this date and should express a cease of any such actions from now onwards.

I would ask her to privately tell me how she found out about it in the first place - if clarification on what exploit and the player I'm referring to is needed(I really hope not), then I can provide such.


It should be noted that I have not banned her, however this does not necessarily mean that Mur of the council will not decide otherwise.


The exploit/bug is not to be listed here, that is to prevent enquiring minds looking for how to do it.
The player involved is not to be listed here, unless they choose to make themselves public. Edited by Grido

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I would like to request a PM with details regarding her demotion as she is in fact a priestess of high standing in the Children of the Eclipse alliance. I would like to know the events surrounding this, and what she might have exploited.

Thank you,
Amoran Kalamanira Kol
Sibyl of the Eclipse

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I would like to see a list of rules that specifically says an LHO may not sell information relating to exploits.

Edit: Or any rule anywhere, really. You're a Law Adviser, so give me some documentation. Edited by Pipstickz

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[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1317176229' post='92660']
I would like to see a list of rules that specifically says an LHO may not sell information relating to exploits.

Edit: Or any rule anywhere, really. You're a Law Adviser, so give me some documentation.
[/quote]
The fact that YOU, non LHO, don't see our rules doesn't mean they don't exist. You don't have to see them, the rules are for us. Regarding that that rule doesn't exist specifically. Come on, LHO's and NON LHO's shouldn't sell any kind of spoilers (aka. exploits, bugs, whatsoever). You aren't a newb and you should/know that... (I tell this with all the respect, just in case, not intentions to offend anybody, but since i'm sleepy better point this out)

Regarding Orchid, I really like her... Let us all shut up and let her defend herself if she wish.

@ Seigh- Always fighting for the same >> (eternal love, hehe)

I hope I made sense, if not wait until tomorrow when I'll have new brain batteries, right now they are dead.

BFH

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[quote name='BFH' timestamp='1317179115' post='92662']
The fact that YOU, non LHO, don't see our rules doesn't mean they don't exist. You don't have to see them, the rules are for us. Regarding that that rule doesn't exist specifically. Come on, LHO's and NON LHO's shouldn't sell any kind of spoilers (aka. exploits, bugs, whatsoever). You aren't a newb and you should/know that... (I tell this with all the respect, just in case, not intentions to offend anybody, but since i'm sleepy better point this out)
[/quote]
So, you're telling me that it says no where that it is against ANY rules to sell such information, yet it's something more serious than harassment?

Also, I did not say your rules did not exist, on the contrary, I asked to see the one pertaining to this. If there is a documented rule that says "Don't do this or you'll be punished", then fine, all's fair, but if people are now being punished based on Grido's [b]whims[/b] of acceptable or not, then I have a problem with it.

So no, BFH, I don't know that it's illegal to sell information. Grido's done it himself, in the form of Labyrinth maps, if I am not mistaken.

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Pipstickz, regarding rules:

There is no written rule, only something called common sense. The same reason why BFH got punished with the drachorn cave incident, when he failed to realize something was a bug, this being the same thing.
I can't find it right now, but yeah. LHO's who fail to recognize a bug and sell it...what do you expect, a police officer selling drugs, won't he get demoted as well?

As for the accusations of the punishment: Please note Phantom was NEW, and this even happened right when she was in her evaluation period. Had we known this, she probably would not have been promoted, because no matter what, an LHO is supposed to recognize a bug and also not to sell it.

Seig: I do not say it is acceptable, however it has to be noted that you are also one who invites the harassment yourself, partially. Maybe she started first, I have no idea myself...however your own actions aren't helping either at times.

Tarq: I admit dst did get jailed, still I cite "as a cummulative punishment for her way of causing scandals, not for commiting an actual crime."

Everything within this is borderline, although her temper should be reigned in some more.

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[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317187822' post='92669']
Pipstickz, regarding rules:

There is no written rule, only something called common sense. The same reason why BFH got punished with the drachorn cave incident, when he failed to realize something was a bug, this being the same thing.
I can't find it right now, but yeah. LHO's who fail to recognize a bug and sell it...what do you expect, a police officer selling drugs, won't he get demoted as well?
[/quote]
You mean Manda, I believe.
A police officer selling drugs knows that they will be punished if caught. Can you honestly say that Phantom or anybody else could possibly know that selling information would result in their [b]very public[/b] demotion and humiliation? And can you honestly say that Grido would treat you or another ancient player in the same manner, if you were in her position?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Grido didn't respond to this topic at all. Edited by Pipstickz

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Assuming you call bugs information (not just talk about shades or whatever, but really a bug), you would expect an LHO to know what a bug is and not, right?

Aside from the publicity of this event, there has been no other punishment inflicted aside from giving Phantom a year more to learn about what is acceptable and what not.

I can't know how Grido would treat me, because I'd try my best to avoid a position like hers. If you give me proper proof of me being in a similiar situation, I will take the same punishment any time.

(And yes, I meant Manda and BFH..can't find the documentation, though I remember it somewhere)

As to the publicness, I believe the best method would be to call this would be that he made an example of it, creating a (exemplary case? I remember there was a word for that, I forgot which.)

I for one can honestly say that I believe me selling bugs and having that discovered would result in some kind of public humiliation and demotion.

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[quote]And yes, I meant Manda and BFH..can't find the documentation, though I remember it somewhere[/quote]

[color=#003366][i][url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/7660-i-am-banned/"]http://magicduel.inv...60-i-am-banned/[/url][/i][/color]

[color=#808080][i]quote 1:[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]"bfh, you have no excuse, you as a lho should know better (...)"[/i][/color]

[color=#808080][i]quote 2: [/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]"Manda - 2 weeks jail[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]BFH - 1 week"[/i][/color] Edited by Shemhazaj

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[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317192644' post='92677']
As to the publicness, I believe the best method would be to call this would be that he made an example of it, creating a (exemplary case? I remember there was a word for that, I forgot which.)
[/quote]
Precedent.

On Topic:
Considering we don't actually know the details of what happened (the bug could have been how to access locked locations, for all we know. A bug we know exists, in the currently un-duplicatable expanse)...

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In light of this announcement I too must question your judgment, Grido.
By your own account another LHO received a punishment yet said punishment remains undisclosed despite inquiries
I did not subpoena the information out of good faith, was this a mistake?

I echo Tarquinus' statements.

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Hi, I'm trying to avoid all exaggerated words. The question discussed here is: Are two different punishments by Grido justified (one minor punishment/warning, one strong punishment)?

The first delict is an abuse of an LHO spell. The second delict is selling a spoiler / bug. There is no written MD criminal code I am aware of but I feel is that the second delict is clearly a stronger one.

I accept that both cases have to be seen in their specific context, but that's up to Gridos or the counsils judgement. I just can't see any obvious misjudgement here.

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[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317162333' post='92644']
I have tonight been informed of something which saddens me. In the steps leading up to Phantom Orchid being promoted to LHO (Promoted 18-Sep-2011) she sold an exploit to a player (for a rip-off price as well) - this happened in the period of time between my enquiring opinions from current LHOs for the basis of her promotion, and the act of promoting itself.

[u]The exploit/bug itself isn't overly serious, it's been known about for a while and not so much abusable[/u], the issue stands that she was at the time trying out to be an LHO, and then became one. Selling bugs or exploits, of any sort, is NOT lho behaviour.
[/quote]
The selling of information about a known bug that is not abusable, or abusing an administrative tool. I wonder which is worse.

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Shadow, if Grido wanted to create an example, or a precident, then he should have used Dst, of all people as a precident also. Considering all the things she's done, then she might as well have the same treatment [and ALL LHOs].

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First i'd like to state i have nothing against dst nor phantom Orchid, and after reading gridos post and later responses, here are my views...

Dst, used an Lho tool and got jailed for "as a cummulative punishment for her way of causing scandals, not for commiting an actual crime." Now Grido may judge if causing scandals is an Lho accepted behaviour or not, and in case its not he may decide what punishment applies (from a warning to a suspension)

Phantom Orchid seems to have sold a bug to someone, acording to grido its not a very serious, and he states: "I would ask her to privately tell me how she found out about it in the first place", now this statement calls my attention, it sounds as if its not a very known bug/exploit, so the question we have is if she sold this bug/exploit knowing its a bug or not. If a punishment applies the bug must be taken into consideration, the obvious or not of it and the earnins she got from it.

Grido decided to suspend Phantom Orchid from Lho for a year period, it seems to me as a rushed desicion, as the acused and the other person involved statements seems determinant. Edited by Paracelsus

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The difference between Dst's case and Phantoms is that dst used a Lho tool to punish someone, and grido claims to have dealt with it.

Phantom sold a bug, to someone, Now this isnt nesscarily a "Lho" action, but something that clearly he doesnt want other Lho's doing

Possibly grido made this all public so that others may know what she did, and therefore could come forward if they too had been scammed. But it is very strange that he didnt even respond to the forum topic for one "abuse" a lho does, and go so far as to put it ingame, forum post and everywhere telling people about another abuse.

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Edit: I've been informed that it was another player involved in the activity, and I just shared a similar situation with Phantom Orchid. My activity was not what lead to her demotion or labeled under the term exploit. Edited by ChildOfTheSoul

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First clearing up the dst incident, the actions she undertook were within the rules of the game, yes she annoyed people, yes she used the item to silence seig (it was him, right?). She annoys a lot of people, a lot of people would probably go as far as saying they hated her. What she did whilst borderline was within the rules of the game, though she did receive a private punishment, she has since also been punished by Mur for her cumulative behaviour - I would expect this to happen again for a longer period of time if she continues to act similarly. Since the event there has even been an announcement posted;
""[color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 2020 - [2011-09-21 17:25:32 - Stage 11][/color]
...Like with any other item or ability, you are free to use it as you wish when you wish.""
But I reiterate, there was a private punishment. It was not ignored.


Before getting further into this, I would point out that whilst I may not put her in the "friends" category (due to not sharing much personal information with her, or chatting regularly), I would certainly consider myself to be friendly with her, I have no personal negativity, or grudge against her of any sort, other than the action that caused the demotion.

The distinction between dst and Phantom Orchid is that selling bugs and exploits is one of the many unwritten rules, one of the most known ones as well. An LHO is an elevated position within the game, they are given spells, and authority to guide new players. In my opinion the position of an LHO has a trust-able image, and also a knowledgeable one - they should be aware of selling bugs and exploits being against the rules, and also how to recognise what one is.
I reference [u][url="http://magicduel.com/players/I%20am%20Bored"]IaB's Profile[/url][/u] - where Mur has edited into his Game Mechanics shop that it's closed. I'm sure there's a clearer example of Mur saying it, but I can't currently find one.

I am classing this not really as a precedent, because it was in place anyway, so essentially a re-precedent. Making sure people know that this behaviour is not accepted by myself - certainly not by those wanting to be LHOs. As has been referenced already, "LHOs should know better".

I would like to clarify for Tarquinus, I did not say her offence was minor, I said that the exploit/bug was. Selling bugs and exploits is not a minor offence, but due to my doing this, I personally am taking no other action, if Mur or the council decide otherwise that is up to them.

Lash, whilst you may not consider you have been, I know what it is, what it's worth, and you were ripped off. I repeat that the role of an LHO expects that she should realise an exploit when seen.

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I need to clarify this point.

Phantam orchid is publicly humiliated for a mistake as an example to other LHO's and wanna be LHO's.

My question is how consistant are you(grido) in your own methodology? You publicly humiliate a segment and you a have soft corner with a cummulative option for your friends etc... 

There is a complaint from seigheart in the forum and you say you are not answerable for your actions and say in game you did something. So why not tell us that some punishment out in the open like this one.

I absolutly agree with tarq's comment on manipulating the system as in abuse of power and conflicts of interest. We are exactly heading that way.

I clearly understand why Pip is taking this stance. It's too clear you have conflicts of interests and you have proved it many times over and over again. I don't want to go in to that details but its for everyone to see.

So I think its justice done if you treat other people the same way or retract phantom orchids verdict to the famous cummulative one.

One idea I have to improve this system is have a set of people controlling LHO even its a small percentage to prevent abuses of this kind.

BP

Edited due to almost simultaneous posts. Edited by Blood Prince

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I'd point out the cumulative punishment thing wasn't me, that was Mur I think.

I am perfectly answerable for my actions, I haven't said it for a while, but it stands as true that if anyone has issues with what I do, or how I do them you are welcome to message the council, or Mur.

Like Pip has kindly referenced in his Hate Page in game (fun reading, he's at Tranquil Plains), the Backlash RO post. I do not have to post punishments, there is nothing saying I have to, nowhere, nor have I ever been told (to my memory) that I should. There are countless players I ban that you hear nothing about, countless more I punish in other ways befitting what they've done - I never have, and never will post about them all.

Yes, I have conflicts of interest, so does every other player that has lived or will lived.

[will finish this later if required]

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[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735']
An LHO is an elevated position within the game, they are given spells, and authority to guide new players. In my opinion the position of an LHO has a trust-able image, and also a knowledgeable one - they should be aware of selling bugs and exploits being against the rules, and also how to recognise what one is.
[/quote]
I absolutely and emphatically agree, but these conditions - having an elevated position and knowing about bugs - are the horns of the problem. I don't want to make this thread about dst at all, but I reiterate my statement that her pattern of behaviour is "borderline at best". You say she has acted within the rules, but I don't can't accept that as an ironclad fact: a review of the Restrictions page indicates that her actions have verged on and arguably met the criteria for violations of two of the rules (creating problems that arouse multiple unique-player complaints; and harassment without cause). The announcement said she committed no actual crime, but it is quite clear that she was jailed for a highly objectionable pattern of behaviour.* This pattern is, in my view, unworthy of an LHO because of the office's privileged position and the responsibility attendant to it. When you make a big fuss about Phantom Orchid's demotion because of "behaviour unbecoming an LHO", any observer will want to know why behaviour resulting in punishment [u]is[/u] becoming in an LHO. You have a very specific criterion for unbecoming conduct as an unwritten rule, and I will gladly cede to you the right to establish such a criterion, but I then ask why criteria based on written, publicly available rules are not also applied to LHOs... who very clearly must be held to a higher standard than ordinary players.

This is neither a popularity contest nor a witch hunt. The question is not whether or not people like dst or Phantom Orchid. As it happens, I agree with Pip that dst is a valuable member of this community, and I actually admire her chutzpah (no vomiting, Inno). The question is what makes a player fit or unfit to serve as an LHO. If you say bug abuse is a deal-breaker, then Phantom Orchid has to go. However, in my opinion, behaviour landing an LHO in jail is a disgrace to the office. I don't want a pound of flesh from dst. I want you to apply your standards fairly and consistently. Whether or not dst was punished [u]as a player[/u] for her behaviour by the Powers That Be, her conduct and how it impacts the community's perception of LHOs is something imperative for [u]you as LHO Inquisitor[/u] to consider. I submit to you that you have not considered it adequately, and that as a result, the office of LHO seems like the badge of a corrupt, favoured elite. This appearance undermines your credibility as LHO Inquisitor, and erosion of community trust in you is something that MD cannot afford.

[size=2]*So, not a crime according to the announcement, but a crime according to a strict reading of the Restrictions page.[/size]

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