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Passant the Weak

Sand Melters, oficial suppliers of Glass

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[size=4][i]We, Passant the Weak (The glass expert) and Soothing Sands, official Sand melters have hereby decided to work together to supply the realm in a smooth way with a resource that only we can produce: Raw Glass.[/i][/size]

[i]We wish you all happyness with our top quality Glass in the near future and forever.[/i]

=================================================================
Current prices-

(extra if you can't fill the jar)

If you provide sand + heat .... donation/fee (see details below)

If you provide sand ............... donation/fee + fill up the 20k heat jar (if we have one)

If you provide heat ................ flexible price

If you provide neither ............ flexible price + fill up the 20k heat jar
=================================================================



[u][u]General Policy - Sand Melter's statement[/u][/u]

The alliance of the Glass Master (Passant) and Soothing Sands should be clear to calm any fear you may have about the cost of such a beautiful ressource. We have decided to [b]keep the price as low as possible[/b] (even supplying at no cost) and will do so as long we consider that our work is recognised and valued by the community.

Of course, if we notice that our beloved artwork(Raw Glass manufactured by us is a piece of art) is used by greedy people to make money, we reserve the right to change our pricing policy or even ban those who use raw Glass to selfishly benefit from any trade with us.

It should be noted however that we are dependant of other guilds or ressource providers to perform our work. Depending on their attitude and price policy towards us, we shall adjust our price accordingly.

[u][u]How to get Raw Glass for no money?[/u][/u]

We will gladly supply [s]4[/s] [b]8 [/b]pieces of Raw Glass to whomever is able to provide us with 1-8 units of sand and one or several heat containers loaded with a total of 20k Heat. Please note that current heat containers compatible with our Sand Melter are Heat Jars and Heat stones.

The only fee we are asking for is a donation in the form the customer wishes of whatever he/she considers fair. It is intended to compensate the time we are giving to the community in order to provide a reliable source of Glass. While exceptions can be made for the first order from particularly poor or young customers that have nothing to donate, the donation is mandatory from any customer that is part of a guild or owns the rights and tools to produce goods or collect resources in any form (water, heat, wood, stones, etc...).

[u][u]What to do if you need glass but don't have a heat container?[/u][/u]

If we can get our hand on a heat Jar, we will lend it to you so that you fill it up with 20K heat. In that case, service will be free (as stated above) as long as the Jar was leased to us at no cost. If you can't load the jar with heat, we will arange that for you but will ask for a fee in coins to cover our extra work and time. If we have no jar (or heat stone), you will get no glass!

[u][u]What to do if you need glass but don't have sand?[/u][/u]

If you have no sand we will ask a fee in silver coins to cover the extra cost to get some for you. Rate will depend on the general situation of the sand market. Please note that it may take time.

[u][u]Technical notes.[/u][/u]

Our tool is very efficient but quite basic: we will give you [s]4[/s] [b]8[/b] units of Glass for whatever quantity of sand you are providing us with (1 to 8). Yes, that means that you should try providing us with only 1 unit of sand if possible.

We ask you to [b]never provide us with sand prior to when we allow you to do so[/b]. Please note that your sand may be lost and won't be compensated if you fail to do so, as it may mix with other sand we could have in our inventory.

[u][u]Disclaimer[/u][/u]
Price Policy is set for a trial period. If things go smoothly, we will keep it that way. If adjustments are needed we will let our customers know through forum and Mood panel annoucement.

Price policy will be updated as necessary, should any event in the realm require to do so (change in our tool for example).


********************************************************************************************************************************************
EDIT: 9/oct/2011 Replaced 'donation' by 'donation/fee (see details below)' in the price summary at the request of some semantic experts. I hope it's enough because i don't have the lust to edit the post in its entirety. :P

Edited by Passant the Weak

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I am willing to pay with silver since i don't know yet where to get sand. As you well know, I love all thins fancy, ornate, and beautiful.

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(Windy, you have ingame messages)

[size=5][b]Questions & Answers[/b][/size]

[size=5][size=4]I keep getting questions about our glass and price policy. I'll try to collect answers here, for our customer's convenience.[/size][/size]

[b][size=5][size=4]Is your glass still offered for no money?[/size][/size][/b]
[size=5][size=4]yes it is! The trial period is extended. This is possible thanks to the Fusioneers: Kiley and Mighty Pirate are helping us to keep our price policy unchanged. We will monitor the upcoming changes with ressources, items and tools to check if this can be maintained as a long term proce policy. In other words: enjoy as long as it last, but don't ask how long it will last![/size][/size]

[b]Where can I get sand?[/b]
Sand can be found in 2 locations: close to a memory stone when you gather it and in player's pocket. We therefore recommend our customers to contact their friends so that they check their pockets, or get in touche with memory Stoines gatherers (Aranna, Lone Wolf and xrieg, as of today). As stated in the price policy we will provide sand when our customers ask (if we can get some), but we encourage our customers to get their own, as it will smoothen the Glass market, and reduce our delays for Glass delivery.

[b]You ask for a donation in exchange of Glass. What kind of donation ?[/b]
We don't impose anything specific as a donation. We want our customers to use their imagination and surprise us. Anyone has something valuable to donate. And we value anything.

[b]Is silver acceptable as a donation?[/b]
As stated, we accept any donation. Silver is included in "any".

[b]Why should I get such a useless product? Raw glass is rubbish.[/b]
If you believe so, we encourage you NOT to get our glass. It will be better used by someone else.
We however want to point out that our top quality raw glass is a ressource. A high level ressource, as it requires manufacturing process. As such, you can expect it to be needed for getting goods that will be very very useful in the near future. Which goods? Use your brain to think of them. Of course, when such items will be available for manufacturing, our raw glass will be very demamded and the waiting list will be... long!
We encourage our male customers to also think of how glass could be used for getting a lovely jewel for their beloved. I'm sure crafters would be happy to help them so...
So many uses, I have in mind. Do you have a mind? Edited by Passant the Weak

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Your official Sand Melters (Soothing Sand and Passant the Glass Expert) are very happy to announce an update in our commitment to provide the community with top quality Glass.

From now on, you will gett 8 Raw Glass (instead of 4) each time you chose to use our service. Yes, it's twice the amount you would have got before, for the same conditions!

So don't hesitate anymore, if you need glass, chose the genuine glass: only Soothing Sand and passant the weak are able to manufacture 8 top quality glass in exchange of 1 single unit of sand.

Offical Sand melters. United to provide you the best glittering glass!

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As much as I originally thought this was a good idea- I would like the word donation be changed, because it is not a donation, but a fee you demand. Flexible price as you wish to put it.

A donation in my opinion is voluntary. And if you go as far as demanding a donation after someone did state before he would not make one- well, then it is a fee. Using the word donation is just pure misleading..

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Shadowseeker: I am deeply disapointed by your behavior. You are banned from any trade of glass with me as per our official price policy.
[quote][size=3]Of course, if we notice that our beloved artwork(Raw Glass manufactured by us is a piece of art) is used by greedy people to make money, we reserve the right to change our pricing policy or even ban those who use raw Glass to selfishly benefit from any trade with us.[/size][/quote]

in regards to donation; I reminded you that you were expected to donate something before I proceeded to melt sand for you. I let you time to refuse the trade and you confirmed it instead. All that was made in a public chat in a crowded area (MDP). While a misunderstanding can be understood and easily solved, trying to force trade in order to get items for free is not acceptable in my opinion. I will quote again our price policy that is right above in this thread:
[quote][size=3]The only fee we are asking for is a donation in the form the customer wishes of whatever he/she considers fair. It is intended to compensate the time we are giving to the community in order to provide a reliable source of Glass. While exceptions can be made for the first order from particularly poor or young customers that have nothing to donate, the donation is mandatory from any customer that is part of a guild or owns the rights and tools to produce goods or collect resources in any form (water, heat, wood, stones, etc...)[/size].[/quote]
Please let me know what is not clear in that sentence and i'll correct it. Please let me know if you believe you belong to the category "first order from particularly poor and young customers that have nothing to donate" and I'll make public apologies to you.
I hope your attitude is not representative of GG as a Land as your PM seem to indicate... or it would mean a lot to me.

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As much as you seem to dislike greedy people, you are actually the one sounding greedy here. Your payment was on the way. Or resolved actually. I'm not sure, I had it arranged to be given soon enough.

[quote name='Passant the Weak' timestamp='1313097193' post='90022'] the donation is mandatory from any customer that is part of a guild or owns the rights and tools to produce goods or collect resources in any form (water, heat, wood, stones, etc...).
[/quote]
[quote name='Passant the Weak' timestamp='1318167981' post='93643']I let you time to refuse the trade and you confirmed it instead. All that was made in a public chat in a crowded area (MDP). While a misunderstanding can be understood and easily solved, trying to force trade in order to get items for free is not acceptable in my opinion.
[/quote]

Excuse me, but as with shared tools...everyone in the realm has access. So basically you demand a payment from everyone who wishes to use your tools. Fine. But then it is NOT a donation.

As for the chat- I did explicitly say "but this time I will not make a donation". I will take a chatlog if you still insist that I did not say it. The payment was on its way as I said in the PM- it will be paid, but as a [b]payment, not[/b] as a donation.

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You can send me chat log in its entirety if you wish so. You did say so, and then i refused to process sand, before you changed your decision and then I proceeded. If i feel I understood you wrong i will reimburse whatever payment/fee/donation/put any other word you wish to use/ I will receive. Ban is maintained until further notice. Our price policy is simple and cheap enough for not wasting time with people who are trying to take advantage of our tool. Nobody forces you to use our service. Particularly when you have a Sand melter in your own inventory. If you chose to use our service to get more glass, the very least is to follow our rules, not to try to distord them in your advantage.

I now suggest we continue the discussion on PM as it has started. But if you want to continue here, fine by me.

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The request to change your wording from donation to fee still exists. Here is the chatlog, or at least the relevant parts:

[spoiler]

[09/10/11 11:00] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Hm..well, you do get double the glass I would get out of it..
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]We have kept our independant superior tools MoM
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]True SS
[09/10/11 11:01] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Please let me know if I process before the heat leaks
[09/10/11 11:01] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]I'm not too happy that I'm asked to donate every time you melt for me- I'd prefer one time payments for a longer amount of time.
[09/10/11 11:02] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]Why not do that then. >>
[09/10/11 11:02] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]We are open to bulk arrangements
[09/10/11 11:02] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Well, I'd prefer to see 8 glass instead of 4- [size=5][b]but this time, I wouldn't be donating then.[/b][/size]
[09/10/11 11:03] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]I'd be supplying sand in return for your melting services.
[09/10/11 11:03] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Sand is a donation. [color=#305681]*[i]smiles[/i]*[/color] It is accepytable
[09/10/11 11:04] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b][b]Aye, but it wouldn't be one sand every time I ask you to melt.[/b]
[09/10/11 11:04] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]If I were to do that, I could melt it myself.
[09/10/11 11:04] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Passant the weak melted Sand and created Raw Glass[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 11:05] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]For long term or bulk agreement, I suggest we discuss on forum PM or ingame PM
[09/10/11 11:05] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Forum PM..less bulky than here.
[09/10/11 11:05] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Make an offer and we shall discuss it
[09/10/11 11:06] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Passant the weak passed Raw Glass to Shadowseeker[/i][/color]

[/spoiler]

To summarize: I said for this time when we were still not unsure of our agreement, I would not pay. I then further stated what I would not accept in an arrangement. I gave indications of what I would suggest for our agreement though.

Your request of 1 sand is exactly what I stated I would not take in an arrangement- thus when you asked for exactly that payment, I asked Shem to pay you with the silver he owed me.

Edit: Keep your silver. You demanded it, I paid up. It isn't like I lack it and I do pay up. I hate debts. Even if it will be the last time I trade with someone, because I consider the demand not fully acceptable. Edited by Shadowseeker

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I have long had stone detector - and Passant had melter quite a lot of that time,
During that time I never had any problems dealing with Passant (not Soothing Sand, but dealt less with him) - he never demanded any fee for glass melted. They tried to keep resource flow a community service (unlike some, myself included) - operating largely on goodwill and not wrinting down every sand received and glass disbursed. I found him true to his word (first post in this thread, check his inventory how 'rich' he became).

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I did think it was okay- but he clearly demanded a fee from me this time, and the way he keeps insisting makes it exactly that: a fee.

Which is why I originally thought it to be a good idea- but the whole way this was handled by him this time simply makes me insist that it is no longer a donation- at least not for me.

I can only conclude from my own experience, which is short and obviously unpleasant.

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OK, I'm tired with that Shadowseeker. You are distorting facts and it is very ennoying. I never had problem with anyone after doing quite a lot of trades for glass. I am surprised that the first problem comes with someone like you. It's not exactly what I'd expect from a veteran.
To me the problem is only that you were trying to get glass for free. Some people did and still do get glass for free from me. But it's on my own willingness or based on some agreement, as a derogation to the normal price policy. We never had such a discussion before you entered that trade.

Since the start of this trade you do know that you have to donate something. You tried first saying "I am donating heat". This is when I reminded you our policy, that is very clear on that matter (heat, sand and a donation are required). I am surprised that you now come saying that you believe donation is optional. But let's make clear a few points.

First of all. I [b]never[/b] asked for 1 sand. I [b]never[/b] asked for 1 silver. I did ask for a donation of [b]whatever you want[/b]. You proposed sand, then silver. Please don't say I asked anything specific as it is not true. And if your memory fails, check again the forum discussion we had. If you wished to donate something else you just had to say so.

Second point: it is not the first time you get glass from me. You seemed to have no problem with the rule before. What has suddenly changed? Besides your willingness to suddenly not donate anything ?

3rd point: the chat shows we probably have understood differently. I still read "[b]I'd be supplying sand in return for your service[/b]" just below what you highlighted in the log. If i should not understand I would [b]NOT [/b]get sand for my service, then I apology for not understanding well. Sincerely.

4th point: can you tell me why you bother to get glass from me while you are holding a Sand Melter in your inventory? Do you feel "normal" to use my tool and my time for free just for your convenience, while you have no need for it? Is it just so that you can make more money by selling the superior glass we are making? You have been wasting my time in stupid arguing with all that trade. As i said, if you don't like our policy don't trade with us.

I did receive 1 silver as you said I would. Thank you. As you probably guess, that is not the main point. The silver will go to the first "good action" that I detect around (quest or whatever).

You have chosen to make this public and tried to put us in bad light by posting in this thread. That is why i reacted. I cannot let you try to lower our reputation. We have countless trades completed, and the glass has been made available to most of the population that wished so, thanks to our efforts. I find it surprising that this dispute happens with a GG citizen just after Sand Melters have been made available to GG. And since you seem to have problem understanding our policy I will explain the rationale with simple words:

Our aim is to make glass available to the community. The whole community, not only the rich people.
We ask for a donation to avoid people to get our glass for free and then resell it on the 2nd market. Because that would make the glass mostly available to the rich ones. And because we don't want people to make money off our work and our willingness to provide glass for almost free.
The reason why we call it a donation is because we don't ask anything specific. In particular coins are absolutely not mandatory (most trades we complete are with no coins involved).
The reason why we specifically ask a donation from tools holders and ressource gatherers is because they do have something to donate in exchange of glass. And we can then spread that donation into the realm. If you want to call that greedyness, then please do.

As a final note, read the above paragraph carefully and you will understand why i did not give up on that special case. It's a matter of principle. I will not post in that thread on that matter again. I feel it is enough polluted now. Forgive me for standing on my ideas and principles. ;)

EDIT: a few typos (well those that I detected! :P)

Edited by Passant the Weak

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And I again, repeat. What you demand is by your own admission not a donation anymore, because it becomes mandatory.

I asked other people myself: A donation is voluntary.

You seem hellbent on the fact that i will try to cheat you out of your tool usage and then resell the glass. For..what? It isn't as if there is a market for glass aside from collecting them yet.

You are the one who misreads my words, then declaring my intention utterly different- if you misunderstood okay, I explained and you still refuse to see the point I was making there. If my usage of the anguage was too subtle for you to understand, I apologize. But where are the words of:

"This time I would not donate (if you do make glass- we were talking about that earlier.)"

The following parts were exactly as I summarized above.

The fact that you so easily get angry at me, refuse to listen to my arguments AND take drastic measure makes me wonder why I am currently even bothering to discuss this.

"Use so often?" I have, as far as I can recall, used your services exactly 3 times. The first time I did not realize I needed to provide heat, my bad. The second time I decided since you were so nice the 1st time I would donate an enchanted memory stone. The third time resulted in this mess. I simply found your repeated asking for a donation (note: I still consider this utterly voluntary and not something you keep pursuing, which makes it more like a forced fee), of which at least most of the process has been put onto this topic by now.

My conclusion is simply that you apparently easily distrust me, get angry easily and in the end refuse to read my arguments, turning it all into a rant against the richer and explain it all with your principles, ignoring any kind of opinion I have. So be it.

And before you forget it: A donation is voluntary. Not. Forced. That would be a fee.


Edit: I added the bigger part in case I omitted some background info lacked: I gave you heat+sand, said I would not donate- and you have the gall to demand it still.

[spoiler]

[09/10/11 10:48] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Well, I would like to get some glass melted as well. I was going to donate heat.
[09/10/11 10:48] [b]Passant the weak:[/b] [color=#305681]*[i]smiles[/i]*[/color] I need 15K
[09/10/11 10:48] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]That I could provide.
[09/10/11 10:48] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Passant the weak passed Raw Glass to lone wolf[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:48] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Actually..let me fill the 18k jar. easier.
[09/10/11 10:48] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]brb.
[09/10/11 10:49] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]LW, better wait 5 minutes before next batch
[09/10/11 10:50] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]I fear shado gives me sand that would mix with yours
[09/10/11 10:50] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]rightie.
[09/10/11 10:52] [b]:[/b][color=#305681][i]Nimrodel huggles Shem[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:52] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]hello shem :P
[09/10/11 10:52] [b]:[/b][color=#305681][i]*Shemhazaj* huggles Nim back[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:53] [b]*Shemhazaj*:[/b]hi MoM
[09/10/11 10:53] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b] [color=#305681]*[i]pokes LW[/i]*[/color] so the caogulator business didn't go as well as you'd have hoped, eh :P?
[09/10/11 10:53] [b]Nimrodel:[/b]momy!
[09/10/11 10:54] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]also looking for losses =) and coins :P!
[09/10/11 10:54] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]-.-
[09/10/11 10:56] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]Je me demande si quelqu'un aurait acheter la bouteille de liquide française de moi ...
[09/10/11 10:56] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]qui s'est avéré faux = S
[09/10/11 10:56] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]c'est sacrément -.-
[09/10/11 10:56] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]lalalala: P
[09/10/11 10:56] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]wow qui n'a pas changé
[09/10/11 10:56] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Master Of Magic passed Flask of Liquid French to shemhazaj[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]enjoyyy
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]:[/b][color=#305681][i]Passant the weak looks at the flask suspiciously[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Someone drank the wrong potion..
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]Orr ssi you'dd ratherr Inn Frenchh: profiter
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]*Shemhazaj*:[/b]I don't want it!
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]genuine French?
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]Coagulator business?
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]*Shemhazaj*:[/b]I've been speaking italian a lot yesterday...
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]yess Passant
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]ittt passss Backk Okayy thenn
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Where did passant go to?
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]= S
[09/10/11 10:57] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]I am here
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Passant, can you melt my sand now?
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]roundabout
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]*Shemhazaj*:[/b] ([color=#888888][i]brb, food[/i][/color])
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Yes I can
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]*Shadowseeker* passed Sand to Passant the weak[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]*Shadowseeker* passed Heat storing Jar 18K to Passant the weak[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 10:58] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]The heat inside is the donation.
[09/10/11 10:59] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Haha, that won't work SS
[09/10/11 10:59] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Huh?
[09/10/11 10:59] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]The donation is in addition to heat
[09/10/11 10:59] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]This is crystal clear in our terms and conditions
[09/10/11 10:59] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Shouls I process anyway?
[09/10/11 10:59] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]No hurry for the donation
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]II thoughtt Thatt Sandd meltingg outils areee Inn GM ...
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]* toolllls
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Master Of Magic:[/b]* Golemus
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Hm..well, you do get double the glass I would get out of it..
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]We have kept our independant superior tools MoM
[09/10/11 11:00] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]True SS
[09/10/11 11:01] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Please let me know if I process before the heat leaks
[09/10/11 11:01] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]I'm not too happy that I'm asked to donate every time you melt for me- I'd prefer one time payments for a longer amount of time.
[09/10/11 11:02] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]Why not do that then. >>
[09/10/11 11:02] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]We are open to bulk arrangements
[09/10/11 11:02] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Well, I'd prefer to see 8 glass instead of 4- but this time, I wouldn't be donating then.
[09/10/11 11:03] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]I'd be supplying sand in return for your melting services.
[09/10/11 11:03] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Sand is a donation. [color=#305681]*[i]smiles[/i]*[/color] It is accepytable
[09/10/11 11:04] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Aye, but it wouldn't be one sand every time I ask you to melt.
[09/10/11 11:04] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]If I were to do that, I could melt it myself.
[09/10/11 11:04] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Passant the weak melted Sand and created Raw Glass[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 11:05] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]For long term or bulk agreement, I suggest we discuss on forum PM or ingame PM
[09/10/11 11:05] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]Forum PM..less bulky than here.
[09/10/11 11:05] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Make an offer and we shall discuss it
[09/10/11 11:06] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Passant the weak passed Raw Glass to Shadowseeker[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 11:06] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]Please send ITC for your donated sand when you get it *smiles
[09/10/11 11:08] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Passant the weak passed Heat storing Jar 18K to shadowseeker[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 11:11] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]So, are you ready Passant?
[09/10/11 11:12] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]yes LW
[09/10/11 11:12] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]I've sent the PM, passant.
[09/10/11 11:12] [b]*Shadowseeker*:[/b]I'd suggest a refresh to see it.
[09/10/11 11:13] [b]:[/b][color=#1D6D94][i]Lone Wolf passed Sand to Passant the weak[/i][/color]
[09/10/11 11:14] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]LW, want the jar?
[09/10/11 11:14] [b]Lone Wolf:[/b]Sure.
[09/10/11 11:14] [b]Passant the weak:[/b]SS, give me time to answer please
[/spoiler]

Edit edit: All I wanted for you to do is to stop claiming it is a donation. Which I already did in my first post. When I give the reasons, etc, you turn it into a grudge. You ban me from your tool. You start a discussion with very insultive undertones.

Where am I in the wrong, after your treatment, to demand that you stop calling it a donation when it isn't?

Edited by Shadowseeker

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This is a ridiculous argument about semantics. It's a confused issue at this point, and you're both coming out looking petty.

SS, please respect that Passant may not speak English as his first language, and even if he does, it's his choice to call it whatever he wants; it's the buyer's responsibility to know what he's getting into.

Passant:This is your business and you have the right to refuse service and whatnot, but you are attacking SS personally by claiming he is greedy and will sell the glass after getting it free. This is all a misunderstanding.

Now, if you two insist on continuing to argue, then I won't be surprised, but I will be disappointed. I expect more from a businessman and a veteran.

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It is also the sellers responsibility to use the proper words- the way he worded the whole paragraphs is just plain confusing, and I politely asked him to change it, explaining why.

The result? He personally attacks me and Golemus in general, and turns this whole topic into a rant about a lot of other things. Sorry pip, but the way you handle some things, (although you do provide the neutral 3rd voice here), you act exactly the same way like me...

I am stubborn regarding this case, and I know it- but passant's way of handling it is not listening, and merely insulting me in return.

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[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1318224912' post='93691']
It is also the sellers responsibility to use the proper words- the way he worded the whole paragraphs is just plain confusing, and I politely asked him to change it, explaining why.
[/quote]
Tell that to any large corporation. Passant has every right to say whatever he wants in regards his product, the whole post could be gibberish and the fact would remain: He has the product you want to buy, he doesn't have to sell to you, but if you need the glass, you need to buy from him.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1318224912' post='93691']
The result? He personally attacks me and Golemus in general, and turns this whole topic into a rant about a lot of other things. Sorry pip, but the way you handle some things, (although you do provide the neutral 3rd voice here), you act exactly the same way like me...
[/quote]
Be the better man, then. This argument is as much your fault as his for allowing it to continue.

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Pipstick,
[quote name='Passant the Weak' timestamp='1318176587' post='93656']<snip> I will not post in that thread on that matter again. I feel it is enough polluted now. <snip>[/quote]
Thanks for your input. it makes sense.
On a side note, I did edit the first post yesterday.
Darn you Pipstick, I just did post! :)

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It seems incredibly stupid in your selling thread, to decide you are not going to post any more, espically when people have questions.

[quote name='Passant the Weak' timestamp='1313097193' post='90022']
The only fee we are asking for is a donation in the form the customer wishes of whatever he/she considers fair. It is intended to compensate the time we are giving to the community in order to provide a reliable source of Glass. While exceptions can be made for the first order from particularly poor or young customers that have nothing to donate,[b] the donation is mandatory from any customer that is part of a guild or owns the rights and tools to produce goods or collect resources in any form (water, heat, wood, stones, etc...).[/b]
[/quote]

Since anyone can collect resources now, this surely means that donation is enforced for everyone, since everyone can collect them, and thus falls into the bolded category?

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Hmmm, I said I would not post "on that matter", which was the dispute with ShadowSeeker. Probably another semantic issue there if it looks very stupid to your eyes. Of course I will answer any question about the main subject of the topic. As I always have.

Back to your question. You get a point there. Actually, 99% of our customer are willing to make a donation in any form (at least until now), so the case did not happen yet. And their imagination as to what to donate is impressive and entertaining. I will not consider that people who are holding a shared tool available to anyone without restriction (herb basket for example) fall into that category. On the other hand, established guild members who are trading ressource through the use of restricted tools will still fall in that category (Water Dowsers for example). I hope that makes sense and answers your question.

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Whilst I agree this has gone a bit odd and it is a semantic issue - neither party is a native english speaker and the word donation is incorrectly used if the request is in fact being enforced as a fee, im not saying nobody does it. In terms of large corporations, if you use incorrect wording that makes people think one thing when it is in fact another then the consumer can haul you in front of the ombudsman and have you fined. In most of the larger corporations you get a fine just for it reaching the ombudsman in the first place and then fined again whatever they decide to fine you, and of course you are told to change the wording. Yes small companies can mess you around with tricksy wording, that doesnt make it right, and it doesn't mean they won't get a legal battle on thier hands at some point.

Z

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The only reason why I kept this whole issue alive was that passant completely overreacted, when I pointed out that the word should be changed.

From then onwards he bans me from his tool (fine, idc), but the complete manner in which he handles me is pretty much one big insult.

Dragging Golemians in general (which I can understand, I was hoping to have some bargaining back and forth, but to some degree understandable), but then further "veterans should know better"- "you distort my words" when I ask for specification because the whole text seems to hide that everyone needs to pay and was already ensuring he got his pay.

sorry passant, but in this case you're the one who insults me, and not the other way around.

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The united Independant Sand Melters (Soothing Sand and Passant the weak) are happy to announce their first event: Halloween Glass Distribution.
All details there: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10846-get-your-glass-for-halloween-for-free/unread/"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10846-get-your-glass-for-halloween-for-free/unread/[/url]

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